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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 1:09:50 AM   
djsmokingjam


Posts: 85
Joined: 30/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: BondVsPredator

I've seen videodrome and found it... uncomfortably compelling. Ditto the fly. But I haven't the stomach for body-horror so most of his films I haven't seen...

And if for that reason alone maybe the aura around David Cronenberg is in part just a kind of default respect - we're all so afraid of what we might see, and fear is such a visceral reaction, that we attach emotional weight onto his films automatically.

Reading through these posts here it seems clear he has the substance to back up the shock if you're of the right mindset, but you must admit he plays to rather a niche crowd and doesn't offer much else beyond highbrow yuck.

Does he?


Hehe, "highbrow yuck" - a fun phrase, though I'd deny that he "doesn't offer much else", and that the impact is only really felt because we are "scared by default" - you really need to see Dead Ringers, Crash and A History Of Violence, none of which are especially frightening.  They are definitely unnerving, though - a very different thing, and something to be commended!

I also wouldn't instantly dismiss Cronenberg's work as "niche", as he has a wide array of admirers, and not just horror fans.  (Though they are most likely the majority.)  Perhaps I'm misreading your post - are you saying it's a bad thing to refuse to be populist?

< Message edited by djsmokingjam -- 13/10/2006 1:11:53 AM >

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 11:32:57 AM   
stuartbannerman


Posts: 1088
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Id say the majority of David Cronenberg films play to a 'niche' and they love him for it. Certain films of his do have crossover value. The Fly & History of Violence spring to mind.

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 12:06:29 PM   
unhingedmoviepigeon


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I'm not a hugh fan of horror or extremely graphic violent movies but I find Cronenburg's movies interesting. His movies explore the human psyche more that anything else - they try to push bounderies and create an unsettling dark bitter pill that though sometimes hard to swallow is in the end is definitely worth while. I don't know if his movies definitely appeal to a certain niche but I think all fans of film should at least sample the Cronenburg delights!

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 1:20:23 PM   
stuartbannerman


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I think if i were to attempt to show people the wonder of a Cronenberg film id have to show them Videodrome above any of his other films. That film is pure undiluted Cronenberg.

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Post #: 124
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 4:56:28 PM   
BondVsPredator


Posts: 434
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djsmokingjam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BondVsPredator

I've seen videodrome and found it... uncomfortably compelling. Ditto the fly. But I haven't the stomach for body-horror so most of his films I haven't seen...

And if for that reason alone maybe the aura around David Cronenberg is in part just a kind of default respect - we're all so afraid of what we might see, and fear is such a visceral reaction, that we attach emotional weight onto his films automatically.

Reading through these posts here it seems clear he has the substance to back up the shock if you're of the right mindset, but you must admit he plays to rather a niche crowd and doesn't offer much else beyond highbrow yuck.

Does he?


Hehe, "highbrow yuck" - a fun phrase, though I'd deny that he "doesn't offer much else", and that the impact is only really felt because we are "scared by default" - you really need to see Dead Ringers, Crash and A History Of Violence, none of which are especially frightening.  They are definitely unnerving, though - a very different thing, and something to be commended!

I also wouldn't instantly dismiss Cronenberg's work as "niche", as he has a wide array of admirers, and not just horror fans.  (Though they are most likely the majority.)  Perhaps I'm misreading your post - are you saying it's a bad thing to refuse to be populist?


[Since last posting on this thread I've since also made myself watch Scanners...]

I'm not really saying it's a bad thing to refuse to be populist. Often it's quite the opposite, I mean look what happened to Lee Tamahori after Once Were Warriors when he tried his hand at mainstream fare.

I guess what I'm saying if anything is that Cronenberg may have discovered a shortcut to elitism by realising if he amps the shock value up to 11 then he'll get an appropriately visceral reaction.

Which is, I totally accept, a very smart stance to take, and in no way a negative reflection on his work or motives. It's just kind of... easy? I dunno. He believes that art should challenge and takes a fairly direct approach, exploding heads literally instead of figuratively. But hey, it's a vision and a memorable one, and he doesn't pull any punches in the pursuit of it.

But you just wouldn't take Granny to see his work, would you? .

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Post #: 125
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 4:59:46 PM   
BondVsPredator


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OK a colleague has just told me I should shut up and watch Spider if I want to see a figuratively exploding head so I dread to think what the forum guys are going to say as they shout me down for that

I rescind all my comments!

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Post #: 126
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 13/10/2006 9:07:50 PM   
Manchurian candidate


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I'll confess... I've always felt David Cronenberg's movies are overrated and cheesy in places. Just look at the fly, Empire recently gave it 5 stars But I think it barely warrents a two. With all the penis falling off and stuff... Yet I never have even a twag of sympathy for any of the charecters. Yes, Cronenberg suceeds in making movies weird. But fails in just about every other respect. 

< Message edited by Manchurian candidate -- 13/10/2006 9:08:54 PM >


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Post #: 127
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 14/10/2006 12:47:28 PM   
punchdrunk


Posts: 7817
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manchurian candidate

I'll confess... I've always felt David Cronenberg's movies are overrated and cheesy in places. Just look at the fly, Empire recently gave it 5 stars But I think it barely warrents a two. With all the penis falling off and stuff... Yet I never have even a twag of sympathy for any of the charecters. Yes, Cronenberg suceeds in making movies weird. But fails in just about every other respect. 


Good to see Reductionism is alive and well on this forum, i'm not sure where to start on why this summary of Cronenberg career is deeply limited and shallow, these points have been covered many times in this thread. so i wont bother.

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Post #: 128
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 14/10/2006 8:15:58 PM   
Manchurian candidate


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From: A Clear-Thinking Oasis
quote:

ORIGINAL: punchdrunk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manchurian candidate

I'll confess... I've always felt David Cronenberg's movies are overrated and cheesy in places. Just look at the fly, Empire recently gave it 5 stars But I think it barely warrents a two. With all the penis falling off and stuff... Yet I never have even a twag of sympathy for any of the charecters. Yes, Cronenberg suceeds in making movies weird. But fails in just about every other respect. 


Good to see Reductionism is alive and well on this forum, i'm not sure where to start on why this summary of Cronenberg career is deeply limited and shallow, these points have been covered many times in this thread. so i wont bother.


Penis falling off, Penis falling off!!!

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"Rose McGowan is a fucking clown"
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Post #: 129
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 15/10/2006 10:59:58 PM   
DJ Rob C: Mark II!


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I think that basically his movies are about the darkness within people... like The Fly, History of Violence, Crash, Videodrome.... they're all about a normal regular guy and the darkness that eats away at him/ her until it wrecks everything...

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 18/10/2006 10:44:09 AM   
stuartbannerman


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I just realised that ive never seen a David Cronenberg film on the 'big screen'
Even though im a massive Cronenberg fan. Do you think his films are more suited to the small screen or are they perfect cinema entertainment.



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Post #: 131
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 19/10/2006 3:31:25 PM   
matty_b


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I saw A History of Violence at the cinema, and it was entirely engrossing - and was the same again on dvd.


 is this the last directors club then?

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 19/10/2006 4:59:23 PM   
punchdrunk


Posts: 7817
Joined: 14/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: stuartbannerman

I just realised that ive never seen a David Cronenberg film on the 'big screen'
Even though im a massive Cronenberg fan. Do you think his films are more suited to the small screen or are they perfect cinema entertainment.


I saw EXistenZ and "Spider" at the cinema, EXistenZ seemed like the perfect Cronenberg cinema experience glossy and exciting, I was expecting less from "Spider" but seeing it on the big screen created an atmosphere stronger than theatre, it is really powerful minimal filmmaking.

I would loved to have seen more on the big screen, but i think it's a strength of a film that it can be viewed on large or small and still have an impact, i would say on the small screen i am more able to use my own view point and be more objective to the story and characters, in the cinema i tend to get taken with the flow of the film to a greater extent.    

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Post #: 133
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 21/10/2006 11:52:10 AM   
Phoenix22758

 

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Discussion of Cronenberg seems to centre on his 'shock tactics'.  Watching his movies is like having to hold your breath as you thread a needle.. they draw you in psychologically.  The visceral ones and the unloved gems like 'M Butterfly'.  We're lucky we have a direct window to his genius via the exemplary commentaries.  He is truly one of the greats.

Andy  MrEnumber6@aol.com

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Post #: 134
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 21/10/2006 1:56:37 PM   
punchdrunk


Posts: 7817
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix22758
We're lucky we have a direct window to his genius via the exemplary commentaries.  He is truly one of the greats.


I've alway's found the neglect of commentaries by filmmakers a tad strange here is a place where the filmmaker can put there view to the film,David Lynch is always hesitant to do so in fear of giving a final signifier to the work, this is a lame and lazy excuse, in art we can choose to ignore the words of critics and the very artist themselves ultimately if there is an open meaning to something as an individual audience member we are free to make our own minds about the meanings contained in the work, Cronenberg obviously has a great interest in the way his audience sees his Films and it's impressive that he does do DVD commentary's.

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Post #: 135
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 22/10/2006 3:18:37 PM   
Dirty Hartigan


Posts: 5890
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From: Manchester
quote:

ORIGINAL: punchdrunk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix22758
We're lucky we have a direct window to his genius via the exemplary commentaries.  He is truly one of the greats.


I've alway's found the neglect of commentaries by filmmakers a tad strange here is a place where the filmmaker can put there view to the film,David Lynch is always hesitant to do so in fear of giving a final signifier to the work, this is a lame and lazy excuse,


Lame, I'll accept, lazy not so much. Lynch doesn't do commentaries not because he can't be bothered, but because he's made a conscious decision not to do them.

Getting back on topic, never heard a Cronenberg commentary, but from his interviews it's clear that someone as cerebral as him would have a keen interest in dissecting their own work.

< Message edited by Dirty Hartigan -- 22/10/2006 3:19:27 PM >

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Post #: 136
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 23/10/2006 4:17:38 PM   
stuartbannerman


Posts: 1088
Joined: 30/9/2005
David Cronenberg commenteries help you gain an extra dimension to the films he is commenting on.
Ive listened to them, gone back and watched the film again and ejoyed is so much more because David points out so many more details than i ever noticed on a first viewing.
Recommended commentaries from him is the recent A History of Violence and Videodrome (wish he could do one for Crash)

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Post #: 137
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 23/10/2006 8:01:17 PM   
djsmokingjam


Posts: 85
Joined: 30/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirty Hartigan
Getting back on topic, never heard a Cronenberg commentary, but from his interviews it's clear that someone as cerebral as him would have a keen interest in dissecting their own work.


Absolutely.  Director interviews don't get much more intellectually edifying than this, a must buy:


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Post #: 138
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 24/10/2006 9:49:36 AM   
Brundlesflies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djsmokingjam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirty Hartigan
Getting back on topic, never heard a Cronenberg commentary, but from his interviews it's clear that someone as cerebral as him would have a keen interest in dissecting their own work.


Absolutely.  Director interviews don't get much more intellectually edifying than this, a must buy:




Agreed, that's a facinating read, really gives an extra dimension to his films and the whole 'Cronenberg Project'

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Post #: 139
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 24/10/2006 1:44:02 PM   
01hammm1

 

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Cronenberg in my opion is a unique director. He appears to have a fascination with the bonding of man and machine, just look at Videodrome and Crash. He is a director that pulls no punches and is a master of visual horror, which for me personally accumulates in Brundlefly, a horrifying result of what happens when man goes to far with technology. However, Cronenburg's horror may be gory, well at times phenomenally gory, it shows he is  director who shows us something rarely seen in modern cinema, Horror with brains and heart... oh lets not forget exploding heads, blood, vomit......

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Post #: 140
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 30/10/2006 9:14:33 PM   
DJ Rob C: Mark II!


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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 30/10/2006 9:23:27 PM   
stuartbannerman


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According to one of the forum people. It was dropped from this issue (and from future issues??????) but will appear on the website.
I was gutted that this decent feature has vanished from print though. It was that (plus the really long interviews-this months with Dustin Hoffman) that made me look forward to Empire dropping through my letterbox.

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Post #: 142
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 1/11/2006 3:27:04 PM   
Helen OHara

 

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Here comes David's piece on Cronenberg - just posting it now...

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Post #: 143
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 1/11/2006 3:31:39 PM   
Helen OHara

 

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DVD CLUB: David Cronenberg
Master of Metamorphosis, and Dissector of the Human Condition
 
CHAIR: DAVID HUGHES
 
 
PUNCHDRUNK, EMPIRE FORUM POST
One of the few directors that you can't say 'I preferred his earlier work', because it flows together so well.

David Cronenberg certainly wears his obsessions on his sleeve. In early works like Shivers, Rabid and The Brood he explores the physiological manifestation of psychological phenomena; in Scanners and The Dead Zone he seems to wonder what the human mind might be capable of as it continues to evolve; The Fly and Dead Ringers are concerned with physical transformation in the name of science; working on Naked Lunch, M Butterfly and Crash, he analyses sexual transgression (homosexuality, transsexuality, fetishism) as dispassionately as a scientist dissecting a laboratory rat; Videodrom and eXistenZ are both prescient explorations of the dissolving boundaries between existence and entertainment. His most recent films, Spider and A History of Violence, concern themselves with the nature of identity, and the way (violence in) one's past can be suppressed or sublimated, consciously or unconsciously – even from oneself.
 
MOTH, EMPIRE FORUM POST
Unlike most traditional horror movies, Cronenberg doesn't seem bothered with the normal human characters in his films, preferring to take the viewpoint of the mutated/infected character.
 

An excellent point, Moth! And by doing so, lets the audience tap into a far deeper understanding than a more objective perspective would allow. So we understand, even sympathise with, the rationale of the monster– Jeff Goldblum urging Geena Davis to "dive into the plasma pool” in The Fly, Jeremy Irons explaining the rationale behind his gynaecological instrument designs in Dead Ringers ("There's nothing the matter with the instrument! It's the body – the woman's body is all wrong!”) -- even though we know they're insane and must be stopped.
 
COMPANERO, EMPIRE FORUM POST
Cronenberg has never committed himself to a project for anything less than a deep-rooted love for its material. He's always remained true to his artistic integrity.

How true, Companero – which is why we never saw his version of Total Recall. "My version would have been like 'Spider Goes to Mars' as opposed to 'Raiders of the Lost Ark Goes to Mars,'” he says, referring to the way both Spider and Philip K Dick's original story "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale” are both about the nature of memory and identity. Cronenberg walked away, promising to make a film with producer Dino De Laurentiis at some future time (he did: Dead Ringers). David Lynch had his Dune, but there is no 'sellout' film on Cronenberg's C.V. – The Fly, his most successful film, is more transgressive than most other 'commercial' horror films -- and even when he signed on to direct Basic Instinct 2, it was because, "It was a very perverse, dark, complex script” – and, one suspects, because he knew the best way to subvert audience's expectations would be to direct a film like Basic Instinct 2.
 

BRUNDLESFLIES, EMPIRE FORUM POST
Cronenberg has developed a core group of collaborators who work on the majority of his films.

Perhaps Cronenberg's integrity extends to his loyalty to regular collaborators like production designer Carol Spier, composer Howard Shore, editor Ronald Sanders and cinematographer Peter Suschitsky. (Cronenberg was deeply hurt when Mark Irwin, cinematographer on his early films, was unable to commit to Dead Ringers, and never worked with him again.)
 
FLASH!, EMPIRE FORUM POST
Most (OK all) of his films have better releases in Region 1 land. Don't touch the Region 2 Dead Zone!

 
Not even with Empire's own Kim Newman on the commentary track? Hmm… Okay, so we don't get the extras-laden Criterion edition of Videodrome or Dead Ringers, but the best bits of Criterion's Naked Lunch (the 50-minute 'making of' and Cronenberg commentary) are on the UK edition, and the extras on A History of Violence and Cinema Reserve's recent edition of The Fly are equivalent to those of Region 1. And as for eXistenZ, the UK edition boasts a Cronenberg commentary and a host of other features absent from the US equivalent.
 
DJSMOKINGJAM, EMPIRE FORUM POST
Cronenberg is probably the best director working today at combining the cerebral and the visceral.
 
Yes, and it's interesting to see how, although still concerned with exploring the human condition ("What I really want to do his dissect”), in recent years his focus has shifted from 'body horror' (intelligent diseases, exploding heads, a woman who grows sex organs under her arm, gynaecological deformity and physiological transformation) to the less tangible, but no less terrifying, horrors of the human mind, from psychosomatic illness to psychotic impulse.
 
So where will Cronenberg's intellectual quest take him next? Many critics misjudged A History of Violence as Cronenberg's attempt at 'going mainstream', clearly missing the many subversive levels on which the film operates. "Cronenberg's aversion to US culture certainly reaches its apeothosis in A History of Violence,” suggests Empire forum poster djsmokingjam, "turning an average graphic novel into a deconstructionist contemporary Western that dares to have a dialogue with its audience about its hero worship of violent figures. (The title isn't just referring to Tom's history, of course, but America's.)” Adds Matty B, "When Tom fights back against the school bully, the predictable response would be to cheer him on, but Cronenberg goes somewhere deeper and darker than that. Without it ever being a limp-wristed liberal sop, A History of Violence asks if any violence, anywhere, at any time, can be justified. The fact that its final scene suggests 'yes' is unsettling, and not victorious.”
 
PETER A QUINN, EMPIRE FORUM POST
eXistenZ was the thinking man's Matrix.
 
 Amen, brother, amen.
 


< Message edited by Helen OHara -- 1/11/2006 3:33:51 PM >


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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 1/11/2006 5:00:33 PM   
directorscut


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quote:

PETER A QUINN, EMPIRE FORUM POST
eXistenZ was the thinking man's Matrix.
 
 Amen, brother, amen.


And it was going oh so well... 

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Post #: 145
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 1/11/2006 5:05:34 PM   
doctorolorinbats1975


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I knew something was missing from this month's issue!

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 1/11/2006 5:41:35 PM   
DJ Rob C: Mark II!


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Post #: 147
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 2/11/2006 10:39:05 AM   
stuartbannerman


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Decent Cronenberg feature but isnt that a lot shorter than the magazine one would have been (im not moaning, just asking)

Any chance of the DVD Club coming back into print?
Im guessing not seeing as no new Director thread has been opened

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RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 2/11/2006 5:47:05 PM   
punchdrunk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuartbannerman

Decent Cronenberg feature but isnt that a lot shorter than the magazine one would have been (im not moaning, just asking)


If you compare it to the Sam Raimi piece deduct photo's and sidebars, and the Questions posed and answered by forumites section you'll realise it's probly the same word count.
I'm not sure what future there is for this Article but all i can say is David Hughes has good taste in what quotes he chooses   

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Post #: 149
RE: DAVID CRONENBERG - 3/11/2006 8:25:20 AM   
djsmokingjam


Posts: 85
Joined: 30/12/2005
Well, a big bloody raspberry to the new editor if it is being chucked out.  It's consistently been one of (if not the) most interesting articles in the magazine (and no, I'm not just saying that because I've had quotes featured), and to be replaced by a useless article about George Lucas imposters on MySpace and a waaaaaay overlong review of The Prestige... what a waste!

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