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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/8/2013 7:38:07 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

It took them a month to come up with such a dull, uninspired choice?

Yep,a very dour negative choice.
Personally I would've went for Hoddle.England played some good technical football under him,even if he was abit of a douche regarding certain players (Beckham).


I wouldn't let Hoddle anywhere near the youth teams. He's a cold, aloof weirdo who hasn't got a clue about how to handle players.

Anyway, it's uninspiring but predictable that Southgate got the job. He's an FA lickspittal and will do whatever he's told.


Your saying a Glenn Hoddle and Eileen Drewery ,as Assistant manager ,wouldn't work?
Wheres your faith!!

To be honest I cant see a great pool of English Managers wanting to take the u21 position,especially ones in work.
Phil Neville might have been a decent choice had he not gone to United.Possibly Martin Keown too.

(in reply to superdan)
Post #: 5791
RE: The England Football Thread - 27/8/2013 8:41:02 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008
England squad for the qualifiers against Moldova and Ukraine announced: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23853555

Lambert retains his place, and there's call-ups for Raheem Sterling, Ross Barkley and Andros Townsend. Unusually bold from Hodgson, but I like it. Sterling has scored a great goal tonight, Townsend has had a good start to the season and Barkley looked outstanding against Norwich. The only thing I wonder is what Nathan Redmond has to do to get a call-up to the senior squad, as he's been one of the most consistently impressive of the U-21 crop for the past 6 months.

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Post #: 5792
RE: The England Football Thread - 29/8/2013 5:06:44 PM   
ElephantBoy

 

Posts: 8398
Joined: 13/4/2006
Yeah pretty pleased with that squad, a few safe choices who don't deserve to be there on current form but still not bad. Pleased he stuck with Lambert as we are struggling right now up front the guy must really be on a high.

Southgate might do well for the Under 21's think he would be respected among the players and knows the set up, and while it didn't quite work at Middlesborough there were signs along the way that he could be a decent manager in the long term.

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Post #: 5793
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 4:24:52 PM   
galvatron


Posts: 1248
Joined: 1/10/2005
So Gregg Dyke has said that England's targets are to get to the semi finals in Euro 2020 and to win World Cup 2022. Does this seem a bit bonkers to anyone else? How can we possibly target that now? We have no idea who'll even be playing for us then let alone what the other nations will be like. Some other nations could pull even further ahead and have super teams. Did Brazil know in 1960 that they were going to have the players they had in 1970? Did France know in 1988 that they would have a great team by 1998-2000? Just setting them up to fail if you ask me.

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Post #: 5794
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 4:36:08 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10127
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Apparently we are going to win the 2022 WC

Now, if that's not a good enough reason to hold stop the PL mid-season and run the Qatar WC in the Northern hemisphere winter time, I don't know what is. And how are we going to achieve this? By setting up a commission. Yes, I always think they are a good excuse for friends-of-friends to get paid loads of money to meet twice a year and spend 5 years putting a report together that most of us could have written before the whole thing started and saved millions, but it is going to win us the 2022 WC so let's get at it.

And again, how do we know all this? Because Greg Dyke hath proclaimed it so. As a professional footballer, Greg won... oh he wasn't and apparently he hasn't played for England or anyone else. But he did bring success as a manager at... oh apparently he's not been a football manager either as he's been too busy at the BBC. But he has been a Chairman at Brentford FC who lost out to Yeovil in the 1st Division play-off last season, which is quite close to bringing England a WC.

In other news. Greg Dyke will pocket loads of money, his mates will pocket loads of money on some commission. The Premier League and its clubs will continue to pay absolutely no interest in the FA and England probably wont even qualify for the 2022 WC unless it is hosted by us as there will only be one English player in the PL then and that'll probably be Brooklyn Beckham.

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Post #: 5795
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 4:44:53 PM   
Dirk Miggler


Posts: 1106
Joined: 14/1/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: galvatron

So Gregg Dyke has said that England's targets are to get to the semi finals in Euro 2020 and to win World Cup 2022. Does this seem a bit bonkers to anyone else? How can we possibly target that now? We have no idea who'll even be playing for us then let alone what the other nations will be like. Some other nations could pull even further ahead and have super teams. Did Brazil know in 1960 that they were going to have the players they had in 1970? Did France know in 1988 that they would have a great team by 1998-2000? Just setting them up to fail if you ask me.


I admire him for at least trying to address the issue but talk about heaping on the pressure of our future prospects.

The main aim is to produce a better standard, better technically equipped English players that are going to be more capable of breaking into the first teams of the Premiership. I don't buy the notion that the foreigners are holding our players back if they are good enough they will breakthrough.

Better performances of the national team should then be a natural byproduct of this.

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Post #: 5796
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 4:56:17 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008
There's nothing particularly wrong with setting a target, as a management tool it's useful for sharpening focus and giving people something to work towards. However in this instance it's a complete waste of time. The FA isn't responsible for developing players, the clubs are. And the clubs have made it quite clear that they don't really give two shits about the England national team. Even so-called patriots like 'Arry make a song and dance about how they'd encourage and never stand in the way of one of their players representing England, then as soon as they've got a tough run of fixtures and their striker/winger/whoever gets called up you can't shut their carping up.

Not only that, but football in England is far too fragmented. In France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc. there exists one governing entity - their respective FAs. In England you have three, and the FA is a long way from being the most powerful one. The FA can open their school for coaches, the Premier League can use their EPPP to hoover up all the brightest young talent and train them to play for their reserves, and the Football League can sit there sullenly and do nothing but watch, but none of it is likely to translate to a successful England team because there is no overall coordination. Everything needs to be pulling in the same direction towards the same goal (as France and Germany did) and, at the moment, it just isn't.

Basically England are likely to get a lot worse before they ever get better. That's if they ever get better.

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Post #: 5797
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 5:02:55 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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Dan has summed it up much less sarcastically than I have. I also don't think you have to be a football man to run a football organisation, but I'd love to know Greg Dyke's views on how well equipped he'd think Roy Hodgson is to set up the 2014 Spring schedule of quality programming across the BBC.

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Post #: 5798
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 5:33:32 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8037
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

In the 1992-93 season the figure for English players in the starting line-ups of Premier League clubs was 69%. Ten years later that figure was down to 38%. Last season, another 10 years on, the same figure was down to 32%.

Didn't we fail to qualify in '94?

Point.....lost.




Just for fun I looked at some of the players making the starting 11.

Carlton Palmer, David Batty, Tony Dorigo, Andy Sinton, David Bardsley, Nigel Clough, Chris Woods, Lee Sharp, Stuart Ripley.

Yup far superior technical players to what we are currently producing.

If he really wanted to sort it out he should have appointed Rene Meulensteen rather than interview him and turn him down because he isn't English.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 4/9/2013 5:45:54 PM >


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Post #: 5799
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 5:50:19 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

In the 1992-93 season the figure for English players in the starting line-ups of Premier League clubs was 69%. Ten years later that figure was down to 38%. Last season, another 10 years on, the same figure was down to 32%.

Didn't we fail to qualify in '94?

Point.....lost.



I'm not sure it is a point lost, because a few years later England were the length of Gazza's studs away from being in a final, utilising players developed pre-Premier League. Teams will always have bad tournaments, but England have never been closer to success in the 'modern era' than they were in the 90's (semis in 1990 and 1996), and it's been diminishing returns ever since 2006.


< Message edited by superdan -- 4/9/2013 5:51:36 PM >

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Post #: 5800
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 6:14:01 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8037
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

In the 1992-93 season the figure for English players in the starting line-ups of Premier League clubs was 69%. Ten years later that figure was down to 38%. Last season, another 10 years on, the same figure was down to 32%.

Didn't we fail to qualify in '94?

Point.....lost.



I'm not sure it is a point lost, because a few years later England were the length of Gazza's studs away from being in a final, utilising players developed pre-Premier League. Teams will always have bad tournaments, but England have never been closer to success in the 'modern era' than they were in the 90's (semis in 1990 and 1996), and it's been diminishing returns ever since 2006.


I think you are remembering that time with tinted glasses. It was a team with home backing that drew with Switzerland in a dull game, were outplayed for a lot of the Scotland game and beat a self destructing Dutch side convincingly. We beat a poor Spanish side on penalties in another drab god awful game, before going out bravely to Germany.
It was hardly the golden age people remember. Its the same for anyone who actually remembers the "other" games from '86 or '90.
You state we could have got to the final, but we could also have easily not got out of the groups in both of those tournaments.
One decent winning performance in the tournament followed by one more but losing. England have been unconvincing and generally poor in most big tournament games as long as I can remember.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 4/9/2013 6:15:05 PM >


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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 5801
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 6:24:26 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

In the 1992-93 season the figure for English players in the starting line-ups of Premier League clubs was 69%. Ten years later that figure was down to 38%. Last season, another 10 years on, the same figure was down to 32%.

Didn't we fail to qualify in '94?

Point.....lost.



I'm not sure it is a point lost, because a few years later England were the length of Gazza's studs away from being in a final, utilising players developed pre-Premier League. Teams will always have bad tournaments, but England have never been closer to success in the 'modern era' than they were in the 90's (semis in 1990 and 1996), and it's been diminishing returns ever since 2006.


I think you are remembering that time with tinted glasses. It was a team with home backing that drew with Switzerland in a dull game, were outplayed for a lot of the Scotland game and beat a self destructing Dutch side convincingly. We beat a poor Spanish side on penalties in another drab god awful game, before going out bravely to Germany.
It was hardly the golden age people remember. Its the same for anyone who actually remembers the "other" games from '86 or '90.
One decent winning performance in the tournament followed by one more but losing. England have been unconvincing and generally poor in most big tournament games as long as I can remember.


There were some drab performances and some good performances. That's international football. They were still semi finals though, and can you honestly say England weren't a better side in those days than now? We've gone from having people like Lineker, Beardsley, Shearer and Owen up front to Danny Welbeck, Jermain Defoe and Ricky Lambert. From Robson, Gazza, Waddle, Barnes, Scholes, Beckham, Ince to Carrick, Parker, Cleverly and fucking Milner. I'm not going to carry on because you get my point. I honestly think that having a core of players who graduated more or less at the same time in the so-called golden generation masked a lot of the problems that a lack of English players has caused, and we are starting to see the effects now as those same players are retiring.

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Post #: 5802
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 6:35:49 PM   
Sexual Harassment Panda


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I still don't see why this is the only stat the FA ever look at. It's a boring a fault filled argument.

Why is no-one looking at the figure and using it as an obvious indication that clubs are having to look abroad because there aren't enough good English players coming through the ranks. Why is it other counties are able to have such high percentage of homegrown talent in their own leagues yet still have an abundance of talent to farm out to other countries? Why can I count the number of English players who play/have played their football in other leagues with my fingers?

The problem is we aren't producing enough decent footballers, and those we are producing are only being exposed to English football, so experience of different leagues and styles of play isn't being drilled into our national team.

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Post #: 5803
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 6:47:58 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

I still don't see why this is the only stat the FA ever look at. It's a boring a fault filled argument.

Why is no-one looking at the figure and using it as an obvious indication that clubs are having to look abroad because there aren't enough good English players coming through the ranks. Why is it other counties are able to have such high percentage of homegrown talent in their own leagues yet still have an abundance of talent to farm out to other countries? Why can I count the number of English players who play/have played their football in other leagues with my fingers?



If there aren't enough young English players coming through then that, surely, is a failure of the clubs? They are the ones who have the responsibility to train, nurture and develop the youth and given that they often get kids as young as 8 or 9 these days it seems that if there is a failing it is theirs. English people aren't inherently bad at football, despite what we like to think. We're just taught badly.

quote:

The problem is we aren't producing enough decent footballers, and those we are producing are only being exposed to English football, so experience of different leagues and styles of play isn't being drilled into our national team.


I'm not sure I agree that this is a major cause for concern. It's only been in the past year or so that many of Spain's players have gone abroad, they were kicking arse long before then when nearly all of them were domestically based. I think it could certainly help some players getting experience abroad, but there's so much money in the English game that it's too easy for English clubs to hang on to or buy players when the interest is from outside. They don't need the money as much. Just look how much Madrid had to pony up for Bale for instance. Not only that, there's not a lot of success stories for English footballers to look up to. Sure, Platt, McManaman, Ince, Waddle, Lineker and Beckham did well, but they were a while ago now and it was a nightmare for nearly all the others. So I imagine there's not the same incentive.

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Post #: 5804
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 7:03:32 PM   
Scott_

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

Why can I count the number of English players who play/have played their football in other leagues with my fingers?


Money? Unless you are a top club then I doubt any team would be able to afford what hyped up English teenagers are earning. Wasn't Lewandowski on 20,000p/w at Dortmund until recently? There's probably a kid in the Chelsea reserves who earns that already.

You'd think players and clubs would be more open to it, Tom Carroll would get way more out of a loan to Spain or Germany than he will at QPR playing next to Joey Barton.

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Post #: 5805
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 7:17:47 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_
You'd think players and clubs would be more open to it, Tom Carroll would get way more out of a loan to Spain or Germany than he will at QPR playing next to Joey Barton.


I read (so it may or may not be true) that Carroll had a choice between QPR and Ajax, and obviously chose QPR. On the face of it that seems like madness, except that he has supposedly been offered first team football in the Championship whereas Ajax wanted him in their development squad. If that's true then his decision is perfectly sensible. If it's not and he just didn't fancy hopping on the ferry to Amsterdam then he's an idiot.

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Post #: 5806
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 8:24:29 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


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This is half of the problem though, that too many young players are happy to sign for a Man Utd/Tottenham/Asenal with little change of playing regular first team football for 4-5 years.

We need young players to be hungry, and want to play even if it means staying at Blackpool for another season, or Palace, or leaving Spurs.
If they are going to be good enough they need to have faith in that, not just sit earning the money before they've done anything.
What benefit is it going to be to a 18-19 year old to play in the academy or even reserves rather than play in League one or two?

One thing that can't be contested for all those England players some fans wistfully think back to those English kids getting games in the Premiership now are playing at a higher more technical standard against better opposition. So those that make it are better players than the vast majority of those who were coming through previously.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 4/9/2013 8:27:25 PM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 5807
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 8:52:00 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10127
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca
I think one problem is that it is not trendy to buy a 22-27 year old from the Championship. So on that basis, I can see why youngsters join a big club at the first chance, as that might be the only one. Better to get paid a load and have a chance at making the first team for Utd etc than not. Also on that basis I'd say that if players are not getting picked up then going abroad is a good option as with Holtby, and that one with all the hair who joined Utd from Germany and I forgot his name, is more acceptable / a better learning ground to be an improved player.

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Post #: 5808
RE: The England Football Thread - 4/9/2013 9:03:25 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

This is half of the problem though, that too many young players are happy to sign for a Man Utd/Tottenham/Asenal with little change of playing regular first team football for 4-5 years.

We need young players to be hungry, and want to play even if it means staying at Blackpool for another season, or Palace, or leaving Spurs.
If they are going to be good enough they need to have faith in that, not just sit earning the money before they've done anything.
What benefit is it going to be to a 18-19 year old to play in the academy or even reserves rather than play in League one or two?


I completely agree, but I'm not sure I can blame the players too much. I'd like to think first team football would be the be-all and end-all, but if they get offered two or three times as much money (or whatever) to sign for a Premier League club it must be enormously tempting. It's not helped either that England managers are blind to the lower divisions and would rather pick a top-6 benchwarmer than a Championship star, as though the options are so bloody great that beggars can be choosers.

I question more the wisdom of a club signing a player when it is obvious they are going to have little chance of breaking into the first team. It seems as though they do it a) because they can, and b) so their competitors don't get a promising player. There have been so many recently and I find it genuinely depressing. That's why when I heard Utd signed Zaha I groaned, because I knew it meant he would go from playing every week to being sat on his arse most of the time. Thank god Tom Ince is well-counselled by his old man, or I reckon he'd have done a similar thing.


quote:


One thing that can't be contested for all those England players some fans wistfully think back to those English kids getting games in the Premiership now are playing at a higher more technical standard against better opposition. So those that make it are better players than the vast majority of those who were coming through previously.


I suppose that could be true, but when the opposition have improved so much technically too it makes it a bit of a moot point as far as England are concerned. England have always been capable of producing technically gifted players (Gazza, Hoddle, Le Tiss, Scholes etc) even in an era when fewer teams relied on it, so those players often stood out from the crowd (the fact that England managers never have a fucking clue how to get the best out of them is another matter). Nowadays though there are players from countries that didn't even exist in the 80's that have technical ability easily the match of any England starter.

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Post #: 5809
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 5:26:37 PM   
Goodfella


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Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon
So, Daniel Sturridge is now injured is he?

Oh...............right.

Funny how these little niggles always occur in international week isn't it, and then by the following Saturday they're right as rain...

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Post #: 5810
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 5:48:00 PM   
Scott_

 

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From: Leeds
Or you know....he is injured. Highly doubt that Daniel Sturridge would want to miss out on a chance to establish himself as Englands first choice striker with the form he's in and with Rooney out injured.

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Post #: 5811
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 5:52:51 PM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17203
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From: North Devon
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_

Or you know....he is injured. Highly doubt that Daniel Sturridge would want to miss out on a chance to establish himself as Englands first choice striker with the form he's in and with Rooney out injured.


It is possible but we see the same repeat every year don't we, right at the start of the season, I'm not willing to believe it's just a coincidence.

EDIT: I would also add it's not the independent players desire that leaves me questioning, it's more the pressures from their club to be honest.

< Message edited by Goodfella -- 5/9/2013 6:13:00 PM >


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Post #: 5812
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 6:24:58 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10127
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Wasn't there a report straight after Liverpool's last match that Sturridge was carrying an injury?

And I think that is the difference. Professional athletes are always carrying a niggle or two. They are very rarely 100% fit. In football they play through the injury for the club, but see Internationals (particularly outside tournaments) as bonus games. Probably a very nice bonus, but rarely worth the risks of getting more injured and missing a number of club games.

This is not only in football. You can see Murray missing Davis Cup matches for example. In rugby and cricket where the national teams are more important you can (or have until recently) seen this reversed, I.e. playing the international with a knock and missing the club game.

Also the FA is on a loser as Arsene/ whoever says they knew they were injured, overplayed them and we are paying 70K a week for these guys.

I do agree that some players miss low level internationals and friendlies. And maybe the FA should play the card that if they are not fit for the national team they should miss the next club game too as there is some swinging the lead going on.

In this case, not only has Sturridge a great opportunity to make the shirt his, but if England don't get results there might be no Brazil for him, so I'd put his withdrawal in that context.


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Post #: 5813
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 8:33:52 PM   
galvatron


Posts: 1248
Joined: 1/10/2005
C'mon Ricky Lambert. Deserves his chance and I hope he bags a hat full against Moldova. It's a great story; from the beetroot factory to starting at Wembley.

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Post #: 5814
RE: The England Football Thread - 5/9/2013 9:55:33 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008
Good performance from the U-12s against Moldova, a little bit more ruthlessness in front of goal and it could have been 4-0. Redmond can't be far off getting a call up to the senior squad now with his performances, and Shaw, Zaha, Stones and Berahino caused problems for the Moldovans all night. Will Hughes looked useful when he came on too.

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Post #: 5815
RE: The England Football Thread - 6/9/2013 8:06:07 PM   
superdan


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Joined: 31/7/2008
Lambert could have had a hat-trick already, albeit none of them were sitters. Maybe the seniors have decided to match the U-21's for number of chances spurned.

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Post #: 5816
RE: The England Football Thread - 6/9/2013 8:12:26 PM   
Scott_

 

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From: Leeds
Nicely placed.

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Post #: 5817
RE: The England Football Thread - 6/9/2013 8:12:54 PM   
superdan


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Yeah, vintage Gerrard strike that.

Edit: And follows it up with one of the worst crosses I've ever seen in my life. If I had done that on a Sunday for my local pub side I'd have been embarrassed.

< Message edited by superdan -- 6/9/2013 8:15:06 PM >

(in reply to Scott_)
Post #: 5818
RE: The England Football Thread - 6/9/2013 8:23:47 PM   
Scott_

 

Posts: 4053
Joined: 26/6/2008
From: Leeds
Soooo.....this is exciting.

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(in reply to superdan)
Post #: 5819
RE: The England Football Thread - 6/9/2013 8:25:46 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10701
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_

Soooo.....this is exciting.


Reminds me of the senior citizens match in Father Ted.

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(in reply to Scott_)
Post #: 5820
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