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RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:04:22 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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When it comes to Terry you have to ask yourself who have been the best English defenders over the last 10 years - Cole, Ferdinand, Terry. There's no point picking people like King and Woodgate because to be effective you have to actually play and they both fail in that regards.

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RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:22:05 PM   
Olaf


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That's the point though, Terry is nowhere near the player that King was (and Woodgate, though I wouldn't rate him as highly personally) and the only reason he's been one of 'the best England defenders of the last 10 years' is because superior players weren't fit to play. And a player's quality should be based on how they played, not how often they played (within reason obviously). Would you not consider Marco van Basten one of the greatest of his generation? Brian Clough?

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Post #: 5432
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:32:35 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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From: the dark side of the sun
People aren't really coming up with a long list of english defenders better than Terry though that's the thing. Everyone's slagged him off but all they can come up with are injury hit players who spent as much time on the treatment table as on the pitch.

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Post #: 5433
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:36:12 PM   
Olaf


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...er, I posted a list on the previous page. The fact that the standard of English centre-halves available for the national team has declined enough to afford EBJT nearly eighty caps doesn't mean that he's one of the greatest as a result.

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Post #: 5434
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:39:26 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
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From: the dark side of the sun
I think Terry fits into that list, he's won too much and played for too many great managers not to be considered a quality defender.

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Post #: 5435
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 4:56:23 PM   
Olaf


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Again, a total non-argument. Matt Le Tissier's greatest achievement trophy-wise was being a Full Members Cup finalist. Djimi Traore's an FA Cup winner, a Champions League winner, a League Cup winner, won the French league and a runner-up in the World Club Championship. Someone's probably already mentioned Emile Heskey's impressive number of caps and his medal haul. I'm obviously not suggesting that Terry is nearly as bad as these players, but winning things is far from an indisputable measure of a player's ability.

As it stands, John Terry would never have gotten into the 1996 England team ahead of Adams and Southgate. He never would have gotten into the 1990 team ahead of Walker and Butcher. He would never have gotten into the 1986 team ahead of Butcher and Gary Stevens. And he wouldn't have gotten into any recent tournament squad ahead of King, Campbell, Woodgate or Ferdinand (I'll make an exception for Euro 2012, where he played much better than Rio would have). And to suggest that he'd get into a list with Moore or Wright or even Charlton is ridiculous.

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Post #: 5436
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 5:23:54 PM   
superdan


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I'd like to add that there was a CB who played just a bit before Terry. He played under two hugely respected managers, won titles at two different clubs, as well as two Community Shields, two FA Cups and a Champions League title. He was also ranked the 43rd Worst Footballer by The Times. David May is an example why those sorts of arguments aren't really watertight

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Post #: 5437
RE: Terry retires from England - 25/9/2012 6:38:51 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Again, a total non-argument. Matt Le Tissier's greatest achievement trophy-wise was being a Full Members Cup finalist. Djimi Traore's an FA Cup winner, a Champions League winner, a League Cup winner, won the French league and a runner-up in the World Club Championship. Someone's probably already mentioned Emile Heskey's impressive number of caps and his medal haul. I'm obviously not suggesting that Terry is nearly as bad as these players, but winning things is far from an indisputable measure of a player's ability.

As it stands, John Terry would never have gotten into the 1996 England team ahead of Adams and Southgate. He never would have gotten into the 1990 team ahead of Walker and Butcher. He would never have gotten into the 1986 team ahead of Butcher and Gary Stevens. And he wouldn't have gotten into any recent tournament squad ahead of King, Campbell, Woodgate or Ferdinand (I'll make an exception for Euro 2012, where he played much better than Rio would have). And to suggest that he'd get into a list with Moore or Wright or even Charlton is ridiculous.


Screw you Olaf and your well reasoned footy arguments!!!!!

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Post #: 5438
RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 10:06:52 AM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7872
Joined: 3/10/2005
Just to point out, I only ever said he had been one of the best since Adams... sheesh!

Ashley Cole is the best England left-back though...

< Message edited by Sinatra -- 26/9/2012 10:08:29 AM >

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Post #: 5439
RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 11:06:00 AM   
jonson


Posts: 9150
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Again, a total non-argument. Matt Le Tissier's greatest achievement trophy-wise was being a Full Members Cup finalist. Djimi Traore's an FA Cup winner, a Champions League winner, a League Cup winner, won the French league and a runner-up in the World Club Championship. Someone's probably already mentioned Emile Heskey's impressive number of caps and his medal haul. I'm obviously not suggesting that Terry is nearly as bad as these players, but winning things is far from an indisputable measure of a player's ability.

As it stands, John Terry would never have gotten into the 1996 England team ahead of Adams and Southgate. He never would have gotten into the 1990 team ahead of Walker and Butcher. He would never have gotten into the 1986 team ahead of Butcher and Gary Stevens. And he wouldn't have gotten into any recent tournament squad ahead of King, Campbell, Woodgate or Ferdinand (I'll make an exception for Euro 2012, where he played much better than Rio would have). And to suggest that he'd get into a list with Moore or Wright or even Charlton is ridiculous.


Screw you Olaf and your well reasoned footy arguments!!!!!


It's a well reaoned arugment but it's still onyl Olaf's opinion. I put it to 4 football fan friends last night. 2 agreed that Gareth Southgate, Gary Stevens and Terry Butcher were better than JT, and 2 disagreed competely (1 almost spitting his pint out when I mentioned Southgate - and this is coming from a Villa fan). I think it's a matter of opinion. I liked Southgate as a player but I wouldn't pick him over John Trerry in his prime to be honest. And I think we seriously look through rose tinted glasses when we think back to the 1986 team/squad, or even the 1990 team.
And going back and comparing to the '66 squad if pointless. They wouldn't last 50 minutes at the modern tempo, not one of them.

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RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 11:10:25 AM   
Sinatra


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quote:

And going back and comparing to the '66 squad if pointless. They wouldn't last 50 minutes at the modern tempo, not one of them.


Yeah, I bet you remember that team well....

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Post #: 5441
RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 11:18:31 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23709
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Again, a total non-argument. Matt Le Tissier's greatest achievement trophy-wise was being a Full Members Cup finalist. Djimi Traore's an FA Cup winner, a Champions League winner, a League Cup winner, won the French league and a runner-up in the World Club Championship. Someone's probably already mentioned Emile Heskey's impressive number of caps and his medal haul. I'm obviously not suggesting that Terry is nearly as bad as these players, but winning things is far from an indisputable measure of a player's ability.

As it stands, John Terry would never have gotten into the 1996 England team ahead of Adams and Southgate. He never would have gotten into the 1990 team ahead of Walker and Butcher. He would never have gotten into the 1986 team ahead of Butcher and Gary Stevens. And he wouldn't have gotten into any recent tournament squad ahead of King, Campbell, Woodgate or Ferdinand (I'll make an exception for Euro 2012, where he played much better than Rio would have). And to suggest that he'd get into a list with Moore or Wright or even Charlton is ridiculous.


Screw you Olaf and your well reasoned footy arguments!!!!!


It's a well reaoned arugment but it's still onyl Olaf's opinion. I put it to 4 football fan friends last night. 2 agreed that Gareth Southgate, Gary Stevens and Terry Butcher were better than JT, and 2 disagreed competely (1 almost spitting his pint out when I mentioned Southgate - and this is coming from a Villa fan). I think it's a matter of opinion. I liked Southgate as a player but I wouldn't pick him over John Trerry in his prime to be honest. And I think we seriously look through rose tinted glasses when we think back to the 1986 team/squad, or even the 1990 team.
And going back and comparing to the '66 squad if pointless. They wouldn't last 50 minutes at the modern tempo, not one of them.


Yeah, it is completely a matter of opinion really (I just really dislike John Terry ). The last point is interesting though when discussing any sort of best players list - Puskas, Yashin, Di Stefano etc all would struggle with the pace of the modern game if you were to go back in time and drop them off in 2012. I'd still consider them amongst the best players of all time (I'd like to think modern training methods would make them even better if anything, but it's all speculation), but it's definitely a point worth thinking about.

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Post #: 5442
RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 12:59:05 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8322
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinatra
Ashley Cole is the best England left-back though...


He's been England's best player for the last 6 years. Although the way Baines is playing at the moment he might have to start looking nervously over his shoulder

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf
The last point is interesting though when discussing any sort of best players list - Puskas, Yashin, Di Stefano etc all would struggle with the pace of the modern game if you were to go back in time and drop them off in 2012. I'd still consider them amongst the best players of all time (I'd like to think modern training methods would make them even better if anything, but it's all speculation), but it's definitely a point worth thinking about.


They wouldn't stand a chance in the modern game as the players they were. Half of them were smokers, boozers etc., the pace and fitness just wasn't there. The flip-side of course is that I highly doubt a single modern footballer would last one game played to the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or even early 90's style. They would basically get the shit kicked out of them, they wouldn't be able to handle it. Can you imagine Ronaldo trying to go up against Chopper Harrris or Claudio Gentile? He'd be carted off in floods of tears within minutes

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Post #: 5443
RE: Terry retires from England - 26/9/2012 2:20:46 PM   
horribleives

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

I'd like to add that there was a CB who played just a bit before Terry. He played under two hugely respected managers, won titles at two different clubs, as well as two Community Shields, two FA Cups and a Champions League title. He was also ranked the 43rd Worst Footballer by The Times. David May is an example why those sorts of arguments aren't really watertight


He only won titles at Man U (he left Blackburn before they won the league) but yes, good point anyway.


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RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 3:12:17 PM   
thatlittlemonkey


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Terry found guilty...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19723020

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Post #: 5445
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 3:35:02 PM   
superdan


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The four game ban I expected but I must admit my eyebrows went up when I saw the size of the fine.

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Post #: 5446
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 4:59:42 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
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If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.

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Post #: 5447
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 5:13:29 PM   
directorscut


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Four games too lenient. TYPICAL ENGLISH BIAS.

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Post #: 5448
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 5:17:42 PM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.


Presumably due to the number of incidents, ie Suarez made a number of references to Evra's skin colour whereas this was one comment. I'm guessing that more than one use of 'abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour which included a reference to colour and/or race' = more than one offence, which raises the question as to why Suarez wasn't banned for longer (considering he made three comments if I remember correctly).

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Post #: 5449
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 5:22:42 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.


Presumably due to the number of incidents, ie Suarez made a number of references to Evra's skin colour whereas this was one comment. I'm guessing that more than one use of 'abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour which included a reference to colour and/or race' = more than one offence, which raises the question as to why Suarez wasn't banned for longer (considering he made three comments if I remember correctly).


Yeah, that's exactly it.

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Post #: 5450
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 5:43:17 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.


Presumably due to the number of incidents, ie Suarez made a number of references to Evra's skin colour whereas this was one comment. I'm guessing that more than one use of 'abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour which included a reference to colour and/or race' = more than one offence, which raises the question as to why Suarez wasn't banned for longer (considering he made three comments if I remember correctly).


Yeah, that's exactly it.



Maybe Suarez got a harsher sentence for not being white

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Post #: 5451
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 7:40:00 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
Joined: 25/1/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.


Presumably due to the number of incidents, ie Suarez made a number of references to Evra's skin colour whereas this was one comment. I'm guessing that more than one use of 'abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour which included a reference to colour and/or race' = more than one offence, which raises the question as to why Suarez wasn't banned for longer (considering he made three comments if I remember correctly).


Yeah, that's exactly it.



That doesn't explain why Terry has been fined 6 times as much as Suarez was. If they judge the crime to be worthy of more financial punishment, why qualify that with a shorter ban?

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Post #: 5452
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 8:27:55 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8322
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84


quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

If he's guilty of the same offence as Suarez, I can't understand why he's only been given half the ban. The fine is secondary really, it's a weeks wages.


Presumably due to the number of incidents, ie Suarez made a number of references to Evra's skin colour whereas this was one comment. I'm guessing that more than one use of 'abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour which included a reference to colour and/or race' = more than one offence, which raises the question as to why Suarez wasn't banned for longer (considering he made three comments if I remember correctly).


Yeah, that's exactly it.



That doesn't explain why Terry has been fined 6 times as much as Suarez was. If they judge the crime to be worthy of more financial punishment, why qualify that with a shorter ban?


I daresay it'll be explained in the report, maybe they take earnings into account, who knows? I read a few days ago though that if found guilty Terry would face a 4-match ban as opposed to Suarez's 8 as he didn't keep repeating the insult.

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Post #: 5453
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 8:49:57 PM   
boaby

 

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If a fan got done for the same they'd be banned from every ground in the country.

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Post #: 5454
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 9:36:36 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
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Surely though the level of evidence would mean that a heavier punishment is required.

Does should how good barristers are at bending the truth are.

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Post #: 5455
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 9:58:05 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005
I doubt they believed he repeated it either but there's no evidence that wasn't the case - so he was punished for what he admitted saying - the punishment matches that. What Olaf said above has been referenced wrt to the ban - and I'm guessing they see the ban as the heavier offence given it's assumed the cash is chicken feed at that level. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 5456
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 10:29:59 PM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W
Spot the Liverpool fans in this thread.

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Post #: 5457
RE: Terry retires from England - 27/9/2012 11:00:20 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005
I hear all about it at home. It's the reason I ended up reading the entire bloody Suarez judgement 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 5458
RE: Terry retires from England - 28/9/2012 1:02:58 AM   
Saltire


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From: Dundee
Pity they couldn't ban him forever from football...

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Post #: 5459
RE: Terry retires from England - 8/10/2012 10:58:19 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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So, another set of internationals. San Marino on Friday, followed by Poland next Tuesday.

Unfortunately these are set to be overshadowed by Cole-gate (The Tweeter and supporter of dubious defences, rather than the toothpaste).

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