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RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 1:25:08 PM   
Russ Whitfield

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 10/4/2012
Good effort. Its not as though the headlines can scream "England go out in quarter final penalty shoot out shock!" as we always go out on penalties in the quarter finals. Was nice to see the team organised and playing to its strengths (Ie, we're a bit shit, but even shit well organised teams can do well). The gamble with Rooney didn't pay off - we hoped he be on the pace for this game - he wasn't and it cost us, I think.

I'm just pleased that the media has finally relented and got off the national team's back - they're not, nor are they likely to be, world-beaters. But they've not disgraced themselves by any means.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 6:18:25 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12836
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From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Did you really see a huge difference between that and Capellos world cup?

I did, at least we had some sign of organisation. If we are still playing the same crap next this time next year I'd tend to agree.
Eternal optimist maybe, but I thought I saw the occasional shoot of development.

The old guard (Gerrard, Terry Cole) actually performed quite well but I can't see the first two making Brazil. Parker was poor, although better last night, and Young and Milner were uninspiring throughout.



Organisation wise we have been much better and we've looked like a team. Unfortunately it's been an ultra defensive team who sit with one bank of four inside the book and another bank of four on the edge of it. I can't fault Roy for finally getting the team to play disciplined football but the possession, shots conceded, touches and passing stats are absolutely damning. I think the only major difference between 2010 and now is that everyone had lower expectations so they are letting the team off slightly. We had as much chance of winning this tournament as we did the last. Whilst our organisation has been better, our attacking has been worse.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the younger players like Rodwell and Wilshere in the team, but I don't hold out much hope of our football vastly improving. I know I'm sounding negative but I really think England played beneath themselves in this tournament. We still wouldn't have won it with different tactics but at least we could have given ourselves a chance against Italy.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 8:33:40 PM   
Rinc


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From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/25/euro-2012-wayne-rooney-england

Interesting article about how Rooney hasn't delivered in a tournament for a while and that he should just be treated as another player. I kind of agree with that, no player should be treated as untouchable, but he's still by far the best English striker at club level so there must be a way of getting him to play like that for England.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 9:24:15 PM   
Dirk Miggler


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You have to look at the management when it comes to Rooney, this is something like the third tournament now where he's clearly not been fit but they talk him up as our saviour and play him regardless.

Ox, Wilshire, Rodwell, Cleverly, A Johnson, M Richards, Walker, Jones. Henderson and Welbeck need to improve but I think this will have been a good experience for them. Hopefully this is where Hodgson looks to for the World Cup

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Post #: 5284
RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 3:42:20 PM   
pocketrocket

 

Posts: 1159
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From: age frais
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

Ox, Wilshire, Rodwell, Cleverly, A Johnson, M Richards, Walker, Jones. Henderson and Welbeck need to improve but I think this will have been a good experience for them. Hopefully this is where Hodgson looks to for the World Cup



It won't matter what players RH has at his disposal as he is so rigid and entrenched in his 4-4-2 approach.

Some good articles in varying degrees of scathing.

Benitez in the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/rafael-benitez-england-have-the-talent--but-not-the-philosophy-7881158.html

Jamie Carragher in the Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9354727/Euro-2012-if-England-think-radically-and-act-now-we-can-do-a-Germany-says-Jamie-Carragher.html

Neil Atkinson on the Anfield Wrap
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/06/the-hodgson-issue/

< Message edited by pocketrocket -- 26/6/2012 3:43:48 PM >


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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 4:03:54 PM   
superdan


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The worst England side for a generation, with a team in transition and ravaged by injury, and the manager is getting shit because we only got to the quarters and go out on penalties, without actually having lost a game under him since he took over three weeks before the tournament started. No wonder the job is a career-killer.

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Post #: 5286
RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 4:15:52 PM   
pocketrocket

 

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I don't blame Roy, I blame the FA for appointing him. You know what you're going to get with Roy, uninspiring, negative, defensive football and an unwillingness to change or adopt new methods.

Sure injuries played their part (Cahill, Wilshere, Barry), but I'm not sure it would have changed anything. All of the performances under Roy have been poor (IMO) and results are inspite of him rather than because of him. Sat in the dugout biting his nails does not inspire...

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 4:19:08 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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From: the dark side of the sun
It's impossible to really evaluate England when we invariably go into tournaments with injuries and a tired team. Come the next world cup it will be exactly the same, there'll be a couple of key players missing, a couple coming back from injury and rest not 100% due another PL grind.

We desperately need a mid season break to give our players a chance and until that happens we will always suffer in big tournaments regardless of who is in charge.

Capello got a lot of grief in the World Cup, but this is the same guy that was getting all the plaudits when we thrashed Croatia and qualified with ease - how did the team suddenly become so shit? The Croatia game was at the start of the season when the players were fresh.

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Post #: 5288
RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 4:46:19 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pocketrocket

I don't blame Roy, I blame the FA for appointing him. You know what you're going to get with Roy, uninspiring, negative, defensive football and an unwillingness to change or adopt new methods.

Sure injuries played their part (Cahill, Wilshere, Barry), but I'm not sure it would have changed anything. All of the performances under Roy have been poor (IMO) and results are inspite of him rather than because of him. Sat in the dugout biting his nails does not inspire...


England haven't played consistently entertaining football for as long as I can remember. Even under Sven it was frequently ugly to watch. Most of the performances under Capello were just as dour as Hodgson's, only instead of a team that enjoyed the tournament experience and came through unbeaten in open play we had infighting and only won a single match in an even easier group. I would say the results we got were exactly because of Roy - everything about England was vintage Hodgson. Organised, disciplined, rarely easy on the eye but difficult to beat and ultimately overachieved. Hodgson has made a successful career out of getting mediocre teams to punch above their weight and that's exactly why he's a decent fit for England because (and make no mistake about this) we won't have a team capable of realistically challenging for anything any time soon, no matter who is in charge. The players just aren't there.

< Message edited by superdan -- 26/6/2012 4:47:29 PM >

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 4:53:23 PM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17347
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

The worst England side for a generation, with a team in transition and ravaged by injury, and the manager is getting shit because we only got to the quarters and go out on penalties, without actually having lost a game under him since he took over three weeks before the tournament started. No wonder the job is a career-killer.


Agreed. Let's not forget a generation of squads hindered by the lack of a national academy to help nurture their talent from a young age and an overgrown influx of foreign players in the EPL (which is a problem whether you like it or not). At least there was some heart and effort during this tournament, something I didn't see too much of under the previous three managers. The one criticism I have of Hodgson is talking up Rooney before he returned, ultimately creating a world that centred around him going into the next two games, and goal or no goal, match fit or not match fit, he was bloody awful in both!!

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 5:10:41 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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The reason Germany are suddenly producing masses of killer players is because they have struck the perfect balance between home grown and foreign players. Quality young German players get straight into their club first teams and are fast tracked into the national side.


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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 5:22:33 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella


quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

The worst England side for a generation, with a team in transition and ravaged by injury, and the manager is getting shit because we only got to the quarters and go out on penalties, without actually having lost a game under him since he took over three weeks before the tournament started. No wonder the job is a career-killer.


Agreed. Let's not forget a generation of squads hindered by the lack of a national academy to help nurture their talent from a young age and an overgrown influx of foreign players in the EPL (which is a problem whether you like it or not). At least there was some heart and effort during this tournament, something I didn't see too much of under the previous three managers. The one criticism I have of Hodgson is talking up Rooney before he returned, ultimately creating a world that centred around him going into the next two games, and goal or no goal, match fit or not match fit, he was bloody awful in both!!


I'm not so sure about this. Certainly it limits the pool from which the England manager can draw, but that should theoretically mean that the players he can call upon should be that much better, since they've succeeded in competing against the foreign players. There's also the argument that English players can learn from foreign stars such as RvP, Drogba etc. which can only benefit them. Besides, England were just as shit before the EPL when the most exotic player you'd be likely to see would have hailed all the way from Jersey or Inverness so the logic doesn't really follow.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 5:35:30 PM   
matty_b


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From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
Yeah, that argument is bollocks. England were terrible in the '80s, and how many foreign players were in Division One then?

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 5:40:57 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 5:53:16 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8279
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.


The talent is the same as it's always been, which is precisely the problem. Other nations have adapted and evolved, focussing on technique rather than physicality - England haven't. Or at least, they didn't, and only time will tell if St. George's Park will make any difference. Even if it does (and it's a big 'if' given the power of the PL), we'll be looking at 10 years minimum before any kind of payoff from it. We are simply paying the price of the prehistoric coaching at almost every level in this country, where young lads get turned down based on the fact that they are too small before the coach has even seen them play. It is not too ridiculous to suggest that Iniesta, Xavi and even Messi would not have become top-class footballers in this country.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 8:26:24 PM   
Frank Castle


Posts: 2688
Joined: 14/10/2005
From: Parts Unknown

quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

Yeah, that argument is bollocks. England were terrible in the '80s, and how many foreign players were in Division One then?


got to a world cup semi in 90,and we were not that bad in the 60's early 70's how many were in division 1 then?

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 8:30:29 PM   
Frank Castle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.


The talent is the same as it's always been, which is precisely the problem. Other nations have adapted and evolved, focussing on technique rather than physicality - England haven't. Or at least, they didn't, and only time will tell if St. George's Park will make any difference. Even if it does (and it's a big 'if' given the power of the PL), we'll be looking at 10 years minimum before any kind of payoff from it. We are simply paying the price of the prehistoric coaching at almost every level in this country, where young lads get turned down based on the fact that they are too small before the coach has even seen them play. It is not too ridiculous to suggest that Iniesta, Xavi and even Messi would not have become top-class footballers in this country.



there is something in this look at rooney(and walcott to an extent) and how exciting he was when he appeared at 17 for some reason he seems to have lost all that natural talent or isnt using i can only assume english coaches have got at him.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 8:52:38 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8279
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank Castle


quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

Yeah, that argument is bollocks. England were terrible in the '80s, and how many foreign players were in Division One then?


got to a world cup semi in 90,and we were not that bad in the 60's early 70's how many were in division 1 then?


We were actually fairly lucky to get to the semi in '90, we basically had to pick the pockets of Belgium and Cameroon. Obviously we had a good side in the mid-to-late-Sixties but everything since then has been much of a muchness really. Some quarter-final places, the odd semi, a few failures to qualify at all. Some truly great players and a lot of dross. I can't see anything really changing until the coaching does (and it appears to be something the FA actually are trying to address). It doesn't help either when you get promising youngsters who end up rotting their formative years away in the reserve teams of PL clubs who don't want anyone else to have them but prefer to start their expensively assembled team of mercs.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 8:56:22 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10887
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.


The talent is the same as it's always been, which is precisely the problem. Other nations have adapted and evolved, focussing on technique rather than physicality - England haven't. Or at least, they didn't, and only time will tell if St. George's Park will make any difference. Even if it does (and it's a big 'if' given the power of the PL), we'll be looking at 10 years minimum before any kind of payoff from it. We are simply paying the price of the prehistoric coaching at almost every level in this country, where young lads get turned down based on the fact that they are too small before the coach has even seen them play. It is not too ridiculous to suggest that Iniesta, Xavi and even Messi would not have become top-class footballers in this country.



Never mind not make it, Messi wouldn't have been given a chance - fact!

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 9:40:00 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12836
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.


How have we been getting worse? In the early 2000s we were the most consistent we've ever been at qualifying for tournaments and reaching semi finals. Since then we haven't been much cop but we've only failed to qualify for one tournament. We also failed once in the 90s, once in the 80s, four times in the 70s and once in the 60s.

As for Hodgson's England, yes we won our group but I honestly think it is the most turgid, defensive and unambitious football I've ever seen from us. Capello's teams attacked more and had more of the ball than this side. It could just be that Hodgson is new to the job but I'm not holding my breath.

We're not getting any worse, just playing worse football.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 9:55:21 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8279
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

As for Hodgson's England, yes we won our group but I honestly think it is the most turgid, defensive and unambitious football I've ever seen from us. Capello's teams attacked more and had more of the ball than this side. It could just be that Hodgson is new to the job but I'm not holding my breath.

We're not getting any worse, just playing worse football.


Hodgson has always made forging a strong defensive unit his first priority. In that, he is old-school. But he has shown at other clubs that he encourages his teams to play once that has been achieved - at Fulham and West Brom he got them playing some decent stuff. And England showed flashes of attacking flair against Italy (brief though they were). Just because he couldn't get a dysfunctional Liverpool to gel on a shoestring budget doesn't mean all his teams are doomed to be that bad I suppose we'll find out if he's got more up his sleeve when players start coming back from injury, but he got England getting results even when they weren't playing that well which is all I could hope for given the circumstances. He's either smarter than he gets credit for, or he's fucking lucky. Either is fine by me

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 10:18:51 PM   
Rinc


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I genuinely hope Hodgson gets England playing more expansive football. And to be honest it would be hard to get any less expansive. Some of the players coming back from injury should help.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 26/6/2012 10:31:39 PM   
Harry Lime


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Indeed DC. It's plain depressing. I've never understood why we have never moved to a more Germanic style of play. As it is, we are stuck in this endless cycle of 4-4-2, big lad up top, "no-nonsense" defence and a pair of nippy wingers who can out-run a cheetah over fifty yards but who would struggle to cross a road without hitting the first man. At least Hodgson addressed this last one by employing James Milner - a man who would struggle to outpace a breeze-block in a straight sprint.

We really need to start looking to the future. We have got a handful of more talented youngsters coming through and it might be worth bringing back "B" internationals or, preferably, trying to resurrect the Home Nations Tournament (or even an invitational something similar to Le Tournoi in 1997) to sit between European Championships and World Cups - somewhere we can blood rising talent with a degree of pressure but without the massive burden of debuting in a major tournament.

In the meantime, we need to reject 4-4-2 and move towards a 4-3-3, phase out the international careers of Milner, Downing, Parker, Barry, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand and, alas, Cole (some of which I suspect has already happened) and focus on the likes of Kelly, Walker, Richards, Smalling, Gibbs, Jones, Barkley, Rodwell, Henderson, Wilshere (who I genuinely believe can be World class), Cleverley, Chamberlain, Walcott, Sturridge and Welbeck. There are no quick solutions to what is a turgid situation but there are reasons to be optimistic providing we treat this next generation with a more flexible and inventive approach.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 12:49:58 AM   
Saltire


Posts: 1974
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From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.


Yet you were favourites for that match and Brazil went on to win the Wolrd Cup that year. Another case of overhyping again

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RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 9:57:38 AM   
CORLEONE

 

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We were favourites against Brazil? I remember many saying whoever won that game would win the World Cup. Turned out to be true......

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RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 10:02:10 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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From: the waters of Casablanca
Well, the expectations were low and they were suitably met. That was a poor performance. I take no consolation that the team only went out on penalties as this was as one-sided knock-out clash as I have seen for some time.

I take a few positives from the Euros:
- Ox was blooded. Big season for him next season, but he should be up for it.
- Stevie G performed like a captain, he was disciplined
- Lescott looked solid at the back
- Team spirit seems better than it has been the pinnacle of this was the comeback against Sweden

I take more negatives away:
- I think we were the only team not to have an offside called for the opposition. The defence sat deep, but the opposition was still able to get behind them
- If you keep inviting teams on to you and have nothing to hit back with, sometime they will score
- Young, Rooney and Milner all had terrible tournaments, contributing very little
- Plan A only seems to comprise merely of not conceeding and Plan B is just a Hart hoof towards Carroll

We have no chance of doing anything at the WC, but the group is sufficiently weak that Roy should have some good opportunity to try one or two things and develop the team.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 10:52:06 AM   
matty_b


Posts: 14563
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saltire


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think England have actually got worse over the years. We've been consistently shit in tournaments over the last decade or so and been going down without a fight against Italy in 2012, Germany 2010, didn't qualify in 2008, 2006/2004 weren't great performances and went out on pens, 2002 died on our arses against Brazil.

I think the influx of foreign players means the size of our squad is sorely limited when you factor in injuries - the situation doesn't seem to be improving and we had very few options indeed this time round, as many people are saying it's one of the worst squads they've seen, certainly the worse I can remember. Where's all the talent gone? It's not being allowed to develop IMO.


Yet you were favourites for that match and Brazil went on to win the Wolrd Cup that year. Another case of overhyping again


Really? According to who? Bookies? Pundits?

Please.


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RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 11:57:16 AM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty

We have no chance of doing anything at the WC, but the group is sufficiently weak that Roy should have some good opportunity to try one or two things and develop the team.


My main problem is not that we don't win tournaments is that we seem to be consistently going down without a fight. It's because we're knackered and injured.

Here's a good blog :

http://www.footballfancast.com/2012/06/football-blogs/time-for-english-football-to-break-away-from-tradition


(in reply to Professor Moriarty)
Post #: 5308
RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 12:04:49 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10426
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca
While I quite agree that a mid-season break would make sense (for the domestic league as well as internationally). England will still fall at the first hurdle, i.e. good team they meet in a knock-out competition. They are just not good enough.

This is particularly true in tournament football where you have a game every few days and especially if it is hot, like in Ukraine or will be in Brazil. England players spend 90+ minutes running around desperately trying to get the ball, to give it away after a couple of passes (at best) and then run around some more. I don't care if they have a few weeks off in January (when I absolutely bet you every top team will be off playing friendlies somewhere) it will not make a jot of difference I'm afraid.

We might have a couple more players fit, but I don't think we'd have had a different result even if Wilshere, Cahill and whoever else was unavailable for selection had been on the plane.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5309
RE: The England Football Thread - 27/6/2012 12:11:54 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
At least if we are fully fit we are in more of a position to properly analyse the team and it's performances - I think the first and foremost we have to get a fit squad at a tournament, unfit players cannot play to their full potential.

There's still going to be problems no doubt but we are clearly at a serious disadvantage come major tournaments in comparison with other footy playing nations.

(in reply to Professor Moriarty)
Post #: 5310
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