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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 8:44:10 AM   
matty_b


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Gerrard is playing like it's his last tournament.

And strangely he's playing much better without Lampard in the side. I wonder if things had been reversed if Frank would be having a good tournament?


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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 9:42:20 AM   
Lazarus munkey


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I think that the captaincy has made Gerrard, he's having a great tournament and looked confident in the post-match interview, rather than the dull platitude generator he usually comes across as.
The defence has been quite impressive. Johnson is prone to errors but he hasn't been as rash in the tackle as he usually is.

Milner and Parker are out of their depth, Parker runs a lot but it's generally chasing down the ball he's lost by allowing it to bounce off him or given away with a stray pass. Milner has been a joke and his most significant contribution to the team was taking 40 seconds to walk off when substituted last night when we were winning. I'm not joking.Every cross is either over-hit or doesn't beat the first man and I don't believe that conceding possession right in front of Johnson can be viewed as 'offering protection'.

That said, the almost comically bad preparation for the tournament meant that qualification is success. Winning the group against the fourth favourites, the hosts and a team we've never beaten is nothing short of alchemy and should be seen, along with any further progress, as a bonus.

Both England and Italy will be happy with the draw and will fancy their chances.

In a perfect world, Terry will put his arm around Balotelli, point to the sky and say, "pick a star", before kicking him there.

< Message edited by Lazarus munkey -- 20/6/2012 9:44:08 AM >


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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 10:01:01 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10127
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quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

Gerrard is playing like it's his last tournament.

And strangely he's playing much better without Lampard in the side. I wonder if things had been reversed if Frank would be having a good tournament?



I am also in the team of having to say Gerrard is greatly outperforming my expectations for him in this tournament. I think there is fair point in the last tournament, but also I think him being "the man" with the captain's armband is a big factor.

I wanted Frank to go in place of Gerrard, so I've got to say I'd expect him to have done well in a reversed situation, but Gerrard has set the bar high, I must admit. I hope he scores a cracker from 30 yards out against Italy.


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Post #: 5253
RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 11:20:07 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8037
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

I think that the captaincy has made Gerrard, he's having a great tournament and looked confident in the post-match interview, rather than the dull platitude generator he usually comes across as.
The defence has been quite impressive. Johnson is prone to errors but he hasn't been as rash in the tackle as he usually is.
Milner and Parker are out of their depth, Parker runs a lot but it's generally chasing down the ball he's lost by allowing it to bounce off him or given away with a stray pass. Milner has been a joke and his most significant contribution to the team was taking 40 seconds to walk off when substituted last night when we were winning. I'm not joking.Every cross is either over-hit or doesn't beat the first man and I don't believe that conceding possession right in front of Johnson can be viewed as 'offering protection'.


I can't quite agree with the Johnson comment. He's not comfortable on the ball, which he should be as its supposed to be his strength alongside going forward. Milner, Parker, Johnson and Lescott (which is unfortunate because I was backing him coming in) have looked a level below the standard required. Young has also seriously failed to impress, while at least the others who have looked off the pace have youth on their side.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 4:59:16 PM   
JJ Holiday


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Baltimore
Milner looks very terrible offensively but he makes Glenn Johnson seem less of a liability. Which is actually a bit of a miracle. Is James Milner the second coming of Jesus?

Gerrard has delivered some excellent balls from wide positions and has put in some very competent defensive displays thus far, but he is still prone to playing needless hollywood passes. Still hasn't learnt that sometimes less is more. Speaking of Pirlo, the general consensus is that he is going to dominate the midfield and dictate the play against England but due to the nature of Roy's 4-4-1-1, and the defending from the front mentality he is going to come under considerable pressure from Rooney and thus his effect on the game may be neutralized somewhat. Look for Marchisio to show up Parker and Milner, a player with quality as well as industry.



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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 5:02:53 PM   
Dirk Miggler


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Milner, better defender than Johnson who's a bigger threat going forward.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 7:16:10 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12813
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I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.

As for Gerrard he's been a lot better than I expected. I said a few years ago he should get the captaincy because it would make him. I remember when he became Liverpool captain and his displays improved so much. He likes the responsibility and Carragher said as much after the game. I do think this is perhaps his last tournament for England though. Not sure his legs will make the next one.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 7:34:11 PM   
JJ Holiday


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From: Baltimore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.



Oh good Lord! And while we're at it let's play Downing up front and Walcott in goal.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 8:10:55 PM   
Dirk Miggler


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Surely theres no way Milner can start against the Italians ? The kids a try'er, no doubt but he really does look out of his depth and looks pretty leggy as well. I was suprised Hodgson went with him as a starter as he's barely played the back end of the season, is he just lacking form ? Walcott should start, shame we didn't really get the ball to him last night when he came on.

The more I watch Johnson the more I think Richards is by some way the best right back in the country.

Wellbeck was a passenger last night and I think could have played himself out of the line up against Italy.

Cole, Terry, Lescott, Parker are performing really well even if looking piss poor in possession at times. Gerrard our best player by far. Hopefully Rooney can shake off the rust the goal will do his confidence the world of good, with him and Gerrard firing we could get past Italy. Fingers crossed

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 8:12:52 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12813
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.



Oh good Lord! And while we're at it let's play Downing up front and Walcott in goal.


Yeah because that's exactly the same.

Johnson's strength is being further up the pitch and attacking and his weakness is his positioning. He's improved this season but plenty of fans have been saying for a while that he could play on the right wing. And if Milner is purely there for defensive cover then why not just play an attacking right back instead of a winger?

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 9:04:15 PM   
JJ Holiday


Posts: 403
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From: Baltimore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc


quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.



Oh good Lord! And while we're at it let's play Downing up front and Walcott in goal.


Yeah because that's exactly the same.

Johnson's strength is being further up the pitch and attacking and his weakness is his positioning. He's improved this season but plenty of fans have been saying for a while that he could play on the right wing. And if Milner is purely there for defensive cover then why not just play an attacking right back instead of a winger?



Glenn Johnson isn't a midfielder. He is hopeless going forward and just because he is better at that than defending doesn't make him good at it. He's lucky he's in the squad.

If Liverpool have an injury crisis and need someone to fill in at right-mid in the League Cup against the MK Dons, then sure I'm sure he would do a job. But in a Euro QF against Italy? Come on now. Especially when you have the Ox and Walcott to relieve Milner.




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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 9:40:29 PM   
big dawg


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As an outsider looking in, I think Johnson has done well so far. Terry has had a really good tournament as well. Gerrard has stood out a mile though. I really thnk you would struggle big style without him. Though you's were mince last night and mince for long periods against France and Sweden. don't beleive this "we never expected to get out the group" either...Sweden and Ukraine are no great shakes and you really should be picking up max points against them. I fully expected Englandshire to quaify for the QF's. I have my doubts you'll go much further though....Tallies on pens is my prediction.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 9:56:18 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12813
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc


quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.



Oh good Lord! And while we're at it let's play Downing up front and Walcott in goal.


Yeah because that's exactly the same.

Johnson's strength is being further up the pitch and attacking and his weakness is his positioning. He's improved this season but plenty of fans have been saying for a while that he could play on the right wing. And if Milner is purely there for defensive cover then why not just play an attacking right back instead of a winger?



Glenn Johnson isn't a midfielder. He is hopeless going forward and just because he is better at that than defending doesn't make him good at it. He's lucky he's in the squad.

If Liverpool have an injury crisis and need someone to fill in at right-mid in the League Cup against the MK Dons, then sure I'm sure he would do a job. But in a Euro QF against Italy? Come on now. Especially when you have the Ox and Walcott to relieve Milner.



You're completely misreading my posts then. I was responding to Dirk Miggler's post that Milner is a better defender than Johnson, who is better going forward than Milner. I'm also positing the idea because Milner seems to be playing purely on the basis that he can defend. If that is the case then why not play a right back who is better going forward than him?

If you reckon Johnson is terrible going forward you haven't seen much of him throughout his career then. Or you have and you don't understand an effective attacking full back. Johnson has always been good going forward, it's been his strength. He hasn't been very good going forward this tournament (who has?), but usually he's great on the overlap or cutting inside, he can shoot from distance and his crossing is good too. Just because he isn't a midfielder doesn't mean he can't play there.

Anyway I'm not for one moment saying he should play there instead of Walcott or Ox.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 10:02:37 PM   
directorscut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I'd just replace Milner with Kelly, play Kelly at RB and Johnson RW.



Oh good Lord! And while we're at it let's play Downing up front and Walcott in goal.


And fire Roy and bring in Kranky Kenny!

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 10:24:25 PM   
JJ Holiday


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Baltimore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

You're completely misreading my posts then. I was responding to Dirk Miggler's post that Milner is a better defender than Johnson, who is better going forward than Milner. I'm also positing the idea because Milner seems to be playing purely on the basis that he can defend. If that is the case then why not play a right back who is better going forward than him?

If you reckon Johnson is terrible going forward you haven't seen much of him throughout his career then. Or you have and you don't understand an effective attacking full back. Johnson has always been good going forward, it's been his strength. He hasn't been very good going forward this tournament (who has?), but usually he's great on the overlap or cutting inside, he can shoot from distance and his crossing is good too. Just because he isn't a midfielder doesn't mean he can't play there.

Anyway I'm not for one moment saying he should play there instead of Walcott or Ox.


To your first point, I think that playing as a defender and playing as a midfielder, whose remit is to defend from the middle of the park are different concepts. And I just wouldn't trust Johnson to adapt to that. Secondly, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I do not "understand"......

..........I know loads about football, I've completed several Panini albums, I play Football Manager on the regular and my fantasy football team are perennial top ten contenders.



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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 10:49:33 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12813
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From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


To your first point, I think that playing as a defender and playing as a midfielder, whose remit is to defend from the middle of the park are different concepts. And I just wouldn't trust Johnson to adapt to that. Secondly, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I do not "understand"......


I know there's a difference between the defensive roles of a defender and midfielder, but Johnson so often plays quite high up the pitch that he is pretty much doing the role of a deep midfielder anyway. And Milner has been so deep and so lacking in attacking, I really do believe Johnson wouldn't find it too much of a problem. I assumed you didn't understand as you said he was hopeless going forward. I don't know any other football fans who believe the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday

..........I know loads about football, I've completed several Panini albums, I play Football Manager on the regular and my fantasy football team are perennial top ten contenders.



I once took Dag & Red to the CL knock out stages. Best achievement of my life.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 11:44:25 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

Cole, Terry, Lescott, Parker are performing really well even if looking piss poor in possession at times. Gerrard our best player by far. Hopefully Rooney can shake off the rust the goal will do his confidence the world of good, with him and Gerrard firing we could get past Italy. Fingers crossed

Have you watched any matches?

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RE: The England Football Thread - 20/6/2012 11:50:41 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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I'm quietly confident about our chances against Italy, especially now that Chiellini's out. He's a huge loss for them.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 21/6/2012 1:24:23 AM   
Dirk Miggler


Posts: 1106
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

Cole, Terry, Lescott, Parker are performing really well even if looking piss poor in possession at times. Gerrard our best player by far. Hopefully Rooney can shake off the rust the goal will do his confidence the world of good, with him and Gerrard firing we could get past Italy. Fingers crossed

Have you watched any matches?


The guys limited, for sure and I even say although I think he's done well, he's been piss poor in possession but he ain't exactly there to be an Iniesta and the team ain't exectly playing great football. He's done well in the role he's been selected for and runs his blood to water for the team.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 21/6/2012 1:34:13 AM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

Cole, Terry, Lescott, Parker are performing really well even if looking piss poor in possession at times. Gerrard our best player by far. Hopefully Rooney can shake off the rust the goal will do his confidence the world of good, with him and Gerrard firing we could get past Italy. Fingers crossed

Have you watched any matches?


The guys limited, for sure and I even say although I think he's done well, he's been piss poor in possession but he ain't exactly there to be an Iniesta and the team ain't exectly playing great football. He's done well in the role he's been selected for and runs his blood to water for the team.

I'm a West Brom fan so have more faith in Hodgson than most but his faith in Milner and Parker baffles me. Yet we continue to win. Sometimes, I enjoy being wrong.


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RE: The England Football Thread - 21/6/2012 7:36:09 AM   
JJ Holiday


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Baltimore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc


quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday


To your first point, I think that playing as a defender and playing as a midfielder, whose remit is to defend from the middle of the park are different concepts. And I just wouldn't trust Johnson to adapt to that. Secondly, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I do not "understand"......


I know there's a difference between the defensive roles of a defender and midfielder, but Johnson so often plays quite high up the pitch that he is pretty much doing the role of a deep midfielder anyway. And Milner has been so deep and so lacking in attacking, I really do believe Johnson wouldn't find it too much of a problem. I assumed you didn't understand as you said he was hopeless going forward. I don't know any other football fans who believe the same.


I just don't rate Glen Johnson, at either end of the pitch. And when I read your notion of playing Johnson right-mid it brought back painful memories of past England teams that have shoved people into the wrong position, specifically wide-midfield to accommodate a 'name' rather than prioritizing balance, fluency and shape. Eriksson was the most guilty of this, and Graham Taylor.

Obviously you think Glen Johnson playing there wouldn't be an issue given the problems with the incumbent right-midfielder, whereas I disagree.

Hopefully I have tempted enough fate for Glen Johnson to score a hat-trick now




quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I once took Dag & Red to the CL knock out stages. Best achievement of my life.



That is amazing. Is there a statue of you in Dagenham town centre?



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RE: The England Football Thread - 21/6/2012 10:58:25 PM   
Rinc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday

I just don't rate Glen Johnson, at either end of the pitch. And when I read your notion of playing Johnson right-mid it brought back painful memories of past England teams that have shoved people into the wrong position, specifically wide-midfield to accommodate a 'name' rather than prioritizing balance, fluency and shape. Eriksson was the most guilty of this, and Graham Taylor.


Come on, we've hardly been prioritising fluency now have we?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Johnson. I don't think he's a great right back (I actually think Kelly is better than him), but if Milner is purely there for defensive duties and offers nothing going forward then I'd rather play someone who will do the same defensive duties but be better at going forward.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JJ Holiday

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I once took Dag & Red to the CL knock out stages. Best achievement of my life.


That is amazing. Is there a statue of you in Dagenham town centre?



I wish. For all the times I've got a big team to dominate a Europe, taking Dag & Red from the Conference to the top 4 and then into the QF of the CL was the most enjoyable Champ Manager experience I've ever had. I'll never forget when I got Steve Howard on loan from Luton and he banged in a load of goals to get us promotion to the Championship.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/6/2012 12:24:28 AM   
Skiba


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With the exception of one real mistake against Sweden, Johnson has been good...he was MOM against France and he defended well against Ukraine where he limited them to cutting inside and shooting from distance. It's just years of everyone saying he can't defend so when he makes a mistake it's blown out of all proportion...anyway, how many modern full backs are great defenders?

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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/6/2012 12:29:39 AM   
Lazarus munkey


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Picking an English MoM from the France game is like choosing your favourite paedophile.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/6/2012 12:40:27 AM   
Skiba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

Picking an English MoM from the France game is like choosing your favourite paedophile.

It's just as easy...Jonathan King

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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/6/2012 1:09:52 AM   
directorscut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skiba

With the exception of one real mistake against Sweden, Johnson has been good...he was MOM against France and he defended well against Ukraine where he limited them to cutting inside and shooting from distance. It's just years of everyone saying he can't defend so when he makes a mistake it's blown out of all proportion...anyway, how many modern full backs are great defenders?


You could say Glen Johnson's defensive abilities are the football equivalent of Chris Hewitt's 5-star review of Attack of the Clones.

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RE: The England Football Thread - 22/6/2012 9:33:20 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skiba

With the exception of one real mistake against Sweden, Johnson has been good...he was MOM against France and he defended well against Ukraine where he limited them to cutting inside and shooting from distance. It's just years of everyone saying he can't defend so when he makes a mistake it's blown out of all proportion...anyway, how many modern full backs are great defenders?


You could say Glen Johnson's defensive abilities are the football equivalent of a Chris Hewitt's review

Corrected


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RE: The England Football Thread - 24/6/2012 10:57:19 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12813
Joined: 2/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

And if anyone thought England played dour football already, just wait for Woy's era!



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RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 11:54:22 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8037
Joined: 30/9/2005
Did you really see a huge difference between that and Capellos world cup?

I did, at least we had some sign of organisation. If we are still playing the same crap next this time next year I'd tend to agree.
Eternal optimist maybe, but I thought I saw the occasional shoot of development.

The old guard (Gerrard, Terry Cole) actually performed quite well but I can't see the first two making Brazil. Parker was poor, although better last night, and Young and Milner were uninspiring throughout.


< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 25/6/2012 11:59:59 AM >


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Post #: 5279
RE: The England Football Thread - 25/6/2012 12:25:57 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8197
Joined: 31/7/2008
England were better in this tournament than the last, so that's already an improvement.

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Post #: 5280
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