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RE: Doctor Who - 26/8/2014 12:45:09 PM   
demoncleaner


Posts: 2389
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

ORIGINAL: kathryn2

Demoncleaner - I'm stealing that line about the Guardian commentariat!


Go for it


I re-watched Fires of Pompeii yesterday looking out for any clues that the Capaldi face might be telling this new Doctor.

Things that I noticed:

According to the Tenth Doctor Fires is set on 23rd August, the day of Vesuvius’ eruption and precisely the 1935th precursive anniversary of Capaldi’s full-debut. (Coincidence? Well, yeah, you’d have to imagine so. Mark this as tenuous with a capital TEN).

The Tenth Doctor effectively causes the destruction of Pompeii wilfully killing the city’s inhabitants. He’s only begged into saving Caecilius’ family by Donna. He actually ignores the cries of rescue from Caecilius himself. (Lessons to be learned? Well there’s perhaps a guilt issue here. More lessons on fixed points in time and more humanely the Doctor tells Donna this is why he needs companions. All this would prove a more thematic message for the character. If one were to attempt a more brazen hard plot speculation from this you could choose anything from “I must revisit Donna (and unwipe her memory” or “Saving that guy was probably the wrong thing to do, it was a fixed point in time and if I left any technology behind in Ancient Rome it might wreak havoc on history…he remarks at one point in Deep Breath that half-face’s innards look Roman) Mark this as tenuous also!)

If the re-use of actors from Caecilius to John Frobisher had an explanation from Russell T Davies would Moffat extend this further with even more OCD to explain Karen Gillan being in this episode as well? (He really doesn’t need to do any such thing. It all depends if the “choice of face” thing is intended as an arc mystery or just a more general trope of the Timelords to exercise recall in regeneration? Who knows?)

The most tantalising thing to come from this (for now) abstract concept was from Capaldi himself who, in the DWM interview rhetorically asks “was that man even Caecilius?” Well, if there’s anything in this quip apart from fan-baiting it might evoke ideas seen in Human Nature… and there was this episode’s mention of a watch….

Is there stuff to think about here? Probably not, but it was a good excuse to go back to an early episode I might otherwise have neglected. Now I have to watch Children of Earth tonight, despite never having seen more than 20 minutes of the first Torchwood episode. I hope I won’t need too much prior knowledge of that show. Will I?

(in reply to kathryn2)
Post #: 19291
RE: Doctor Who - 26/8/2014 2:03:46 PM   
Base


Posts: 4375
Joined: 30/3/2006
From: Surrey, UK
Loved the episode, Capaldi is awesome, but hated the cameo at the end!!!! Utterly unnecessary and felt like a pandering plea to the teeny boppers who were throwing their toys out of the pram that the pin-up docs were being replaced by an old man to give him a chance!!! Was not showing much faith in Capaldi. Can't think of any previous Doctor who has had to share his main debut with a predecessor...

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(in reply to demoncleaner)
Post #: 19292
RE: Doctor Who - 26/8/2014 2:50:36 PM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7857
Joined: 3/10/2005
Capaldi was ok, but the episode was so bad I found it hard hard to connect with him. I will try to persevere.

(in reply to Base)
Post #: 19293
RE: Doctor Who - 30/8/2014 8:49:20 AM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009
People complained about Vastra and Jenny kissing, apparently. Wonder if it was the lesbianism or the bestiality that was the problem.

Mind you, I find most of the kissing in Doctor Who gratuitous and unnecessary.

http://www.digitalspy.com.au/british-tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a593433/doctor-who-kiss-complaints-wont-be-investigated-by-ofcom.html#~oOpj06idBq3WzR

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Post #: 19294
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 9:32:06 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3086
Joined: 30/9/2005
I cannot believe how quiet this thread these days!

Well, I thought that was fantastic and the more I see of Capaldi's doctor, the more I love him in the role. I like this side to The Doctor. It's like he can't hide the darkness within anymore like 10 or 11 could. Heck even 9 could try to mask it with the odd joke.

Not feeling Missy if I'm honest but Danny had me intrigued from his first scene. Making him a soldier with hints of PTSD is an interesting angle as well. Especially given 12th's distaste for soldiers. (Even though the Doctor was one!) I hope it's an ongoing thing. Maybe Clara hides it from the Doctor in order to let Danny join them? Interestingly didn't see Danny in the trailer. Might be a slow introduction aka Rory. Or maybe just brought in as a companion in time for the finale for the actiony bits like Cap'n Jack was originally?

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Confusion is a way of life, not a state of mind

(in reply to demoncleaner)
Post #: 19295
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 11:32:48 AM   
demoncleaner


Posts: 2389
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

I cannot believe how quiet this thread these days!


I never want to be the one who fires the first shot this year. I'm probably going to be typically gushing, met with a subsequent stream of chill Deborah Meadens

I agree with everything you've said. Matt's my Doctor but with Capaldi you simply don't get a chance to miss him. He's such a bastard! "This top bit if you want to say a few words". He's reminiscent of a sinister William Hartnell when he picked up that rock to snuff the caveman, only difference being the 12th is not feckless, nor lacking in self-control. It's makes for a highly elegant frisson of danger in the character while obviously still being a moral pillar.

I really like Danny Pink as well. When I first saw his picture I thought "oh no, he's going to be this dashing tough guy and I won't like him". The script was a bit heavy handed in the opposite direction but I think Samuel Anderson sold it nonetheless. I'm thinking there's bound to be some connection with him and the Aristotle soldiers. I think the audience were really designed to think he would be Journey's brother. That we were meant to think Zawe Ashton was supposed to say "that's my brother" when Clara mentioned the coincidence. I think it was such a conspicuous red herring that it won't be a *total* red herring.

I also have a bijou theory-ette that Missy is collecting people who willingly kill/sacrifice themselves. I think there's a pattern of personal consent there.

(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 19296
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 11:44:55 AM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009
Well, a lot better than the last one. Pretty interesting story idea, if not perfectly realised.
Seemed to lack strong dramatic beats somehow. And it was a bit of a retread of the Dalek ep in series 1 at the start.
Like how Capaldi is shaping up.

_____________________________

All things digested have a similar hue.

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Post #: 19297
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 12:04:04 PM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner

I also have a bijou theory-ette that Missy is collecting people who willingly kill/sacrifice themselves. I think there's a pattern of personal consent there.



Yes, but I think the key point might be that the Doctor subtly (or not) coerced them into sacrificing themselves.
My theory is their consciousness is being saved in a computer a la the Library and they'll be turned against the Doctor by the Daleks/ Cybermen/ the Master/ Omega/ Vervoids.


< Message edited by Sotto Voce -- 31/8/2014 12:08:19 PM >


_____________________________

All things digested have a similar hue.

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Post #: 19298
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 12:21:49 PM   
Captain Black


Posts: 6697
Joined: 30/9/2005
Even though the Innerspace bit of the story was a bit silly for my tastes (at least mitigated by being referenced) -- and how exactly were they resized at the end? -- I thought that was really good. A really good Dalek episode, whodathunkit?

I too will now shed a single tear each time I'm asked if I've killed a man.

_____________________________

Invisiotext:
[color=#F1F1F1]text[/color]

(in reply to Sotto Voce)
Post #: 19299
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 3:00:39 PM   
sangypange

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/11/2006
I like capaldi a lot, and the missy scenes are keeping me intrigued but in every episode with Clara she does something that makes me cringe.....and i don't buy the doesn't know if hes a good man but he tries.....amy would of said yes, rose would of said yes....of course he is a good man because he is trying....i just find her really irritating, would it be concievable if we could see a series without a constant companion for a change,

(in reply to Captain Black)
Post #: 19300
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 3:41:51 PM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Black

Even though the Innerspace bit of the story was a bit silly for my tastes (at least mitigated by being referenced) -- and how exactly were they resized at the end? -- I thought that was really good. A really good Dalek episode, whodathunkit?

I too will now shed a single tear each time I'm asked if I've killed a man.


Remember when Tom Baker was cloned, shrunk, and injected into himself?

_____________________________

All things digested have a similar hue.

(in reply to Captain Black)
Post #: 19301
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 8:08:19 PM   
Private Hudson


Posts: 1839
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Black

Even though the Innerspace bit of the story was a bit silly for my tastes (at least mitigated by being referenced) -- and how exactly were they resized at the end? -- I thought that was really good. A really good Dalek episode, whodathunkit?

I too will now shed a single tear each time I'm asked if I've killed a man.


Fantastic Voyage, surely!

_____________________________

Watch my spoof movie of FULL METAL JACKET here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCGRWVvM-Zo&feature=plcp&context=C31ca298UDOEgsToPDskJ4_UorjolrWTaxEGMj5GO0

(in reply to Captain Black)
Post #: 19302
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 8:09:15 PM   
Private Hudson


Posts: 1839
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner


quote:

ORIGINAL: kathryn2

Demoncleaner - I'm stealing that line about the Guardian commentariat!


Go for it


I re-watched Fires of Pompeii yesterday looking out for any clues that the Capaldi face might be telling this new Doctor.

Things that I noticed:

According to the Tenth Doctor Fires is set on 23rd August, the day of Vesuvius’ eruption and precisely the 1935th precursive anniversary of Capaldi’s full-debut. (Coincidence? Well, yeah, you’d have to imagine so. Mark this as tenuous with a capital TEN).

The Tenth Doctor effectively causes the destruction of Pompeii wilfully killing the city’s inhabitants. He’s only begged into saving Caecilius’ family by Donna. He actually ignores the cries of rescue from Caecilius himself. (Lessons to be learned? Well there’s perhaps a guilt issue here. More lessons on fixed points in time and more humanely the Doctor tells Donna this is why he needs companions. All this would prove a more thematic message for the character. If one were to attempt a more brazen hard plot speculation from this you could choose anything from “I must revisit Donna (and unwipe her memory” or “Saving that guy was probably the wrong thing to do, it was a fixed point in time and if I left any technology behind in Ancient Rome it might wreak havoc on history…he remarks at one point in Deep Breath that half-face’s innards look Roman) Mark this as tenuous also!)

If the re-use of actors from Caecilius to John Frobisher had an explanation from Russell T Davies would Moffat extend this further with even more OCD to explain Karen Gillan being in this episode as well? (He really doesn’t need to do any such thing. It all depends if the “choice of face” thing is intended as an arc mystery or just a more general trope of the Timelords to exercise recall in regeneration? Who knows?)

The most tantalising thing to come from this (for now) abstract concept was from Capaldi himself who, in the DWM interview rhetorically asks “was that man even Caecilius?” Well, if there’s anything in this quip apart from fan-baiting it might evoke ideas seen in Human Nature… and there was this episode’s mention of a watch….

Is there stuff to think about here? Probably not, but it was a good excuse to go back to an early episode I might otherwise have neglected. Now I have to watch Children of Earth tonight, despite never having seen more than 20 minutes of the first Torchwood episode. I hope I won’t need too much prior knowledge of that show. Will I?



Wow if that is true that would blow our minds. Soooo many questions and answers to come with that one.


_____________________________

Watch my spoof movie of FULL METAL JACKET here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCGRWVvM-Zo&feature=plcp&context=C31ca298UDOEgsToPDskJ4_UorjolrWTaxEGMj5GO0

(in reply to demoncleaner)
Post #: 19303
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 8:11:23 PM   
Private Hudson


Posts: 1839
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

I cannot believe how quiet this thread these days!


I never want to be the one who fires the first shot this year. I'm probably going to be typically gushing, met with a subsequent stream of chill Deborah Meadens

I agree with everything you've said. Matt's my Doctor but with Capaldi you simply don't get a chance to miss him. He's such a bastard! "This top bit if you want to say a few words". He's reminiscent of a sinister William Hartnell when he picked up that rock to snuff the caveman, only difference being the 12th is not feckless, nor lacking in self-control. It's makes for a highly elegant frisson of danger in the character while obviously still being a moral pillar.

I really like Danny Pink as well. When I first saw his picture I thought "oh no, he's going to be this dashing tough guy and I won't like him". The script was a bit heavy handed in the opposite direction but I think Samuel Anderson sold it nonetheless. I'm thinking there's bound to be some connection with him and the Aristotle soldiers. I think the audience were really designed to think he would be Journey's brother. That we were meant to think Zawe Ashton was supposed to say "that's my brother" when Clara mentioned the coincidence. I think it was such a conspicuous red herring that it won't be a *total* red herring.

I also have a bijou theory-ette that Missy is collecting people who willingly kill/sacrifice themselves. I think there's a pattern of personal consent there.



Yes I agree. I thought he was going to be a cocky character a bit like Micky or Captain Jack but he has turned out to be a quiet, decent, tortured soul. He came across really well, and I am guessing he might be just the man to help the Doctor when a few aliens need their blocks knocked off... though I think Capaldi has already shown he is certainly more like the 'old' Doctors than anything post 2005.

In fact I think he is shaping up as being one of the best Doctors ever.


_____________________________

Watch my spoof movie of FULL METAL JACKET here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCGRWVvM-Zo&feature=plcp&context=C31ca298UDOEgsToPDskJ4_UorjolrWTaxEGMj5GO0

(in reply to demoncleaner)
Post #: 19304
RE: Doctor Who - 31/8/2014 8:44:11 PM   
Captain Black


Posts: 6697
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sotto Voce
Remember when Tom Baker was cloned, shrunk, and injected into himself?


No - you have just blown my mind!


_____________________________

Invisiotext:
[color=#F1F1F1]text[/color]

(in reply to Sotto Voce)
Post #: 19305
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 10:17:11 AM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7857
Joined: 3/10/2005
I really liked this episode and I think I like Capaldi.

I do get annoyed when things like them resizing back to normal dont get explained.

If it had been the Matt Smith Dr asking her whether he was a good man she'd have said yes, I think she's still struggling to get used to the new Dr... and perhaps a lot of viewers are too. I think he's good though, and I really want him to be darker... the next episode looks a bit silly

(in reply to Captain Black)
Post #: 19306
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:04:26 AM   
FoximusPrime

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 11/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinatra

I really liked this episode and I think I like Capaldi.

I do get annoyed when things like them resizing back to normal dont get explained.

If it had been the Matt Smith Dr asking her whether he was a good man she'd have said yes, I think she's still struggling to get used to the new Dr... and perhaps a lot of viewers are too. I think he's good though, and I really want him to be darker... the next episode looks a bit silly


They explained how that would happen before they got shrunk didn't they? The bracelets they were all putting on had a button that would re-size them. Unless I misinterpreted it of course, in which case...HOLY SHIT WHAT'S THAT BEHIND YOU!!

*runs off*

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Post #: 19307
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:13:47 AM   
kathryn2

 

Posts: 1511
Joined: 24/4/2006
I guess I'm the only person who absolutely hated it, then.

I just re-watched Let's Kill Hitler last week, so the re-use of that plot device particularly stood out, but I swear they're also repeating character arcs now. I've seen the Doctor realise that he's no better than a Dalek before. Also, he was rather stupid not to realise what repairing the Dalek would do, and really, Clara had to point out the bleeding obvious that they'd just discovered *how* to make a Dalek 'good'? It's not even the first time that an insane Dalek has decided that the Daleks are evil and need to die - Dalek Caan did that.

And right now I just *hate* the colder, darker Doctor that everyone seems to like so much. He has no compassion - where's my doctor, who is always 'sorry, so sorry' when the people he meets die? Where's the Doctor who is still capable of seeing joy and beauty in the universe? Where's the Doctor who has had the burden of destroying his entire race to save the universe lifted from his shoulders?

Where's the Doctor who dances?

I mean, 'She cares so I don't have to'. Since when has the Doctor not cared?!

Feh. I'll give it one more episode.

< Message edited by kathryn2 -- 1/9/2014 11:18:06 AM >

(in reply to Sinatra)
Post #: 19308
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:19:57 AM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Black

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sotto Voce
Remember when Tom Baker was cloned, shrunk, and injected into himself?


No - you have just blown my mind!



Yeah, I don't know the name of the story, but I think it was the one where K-9 was first introduced.


_____________________________

All things digested have a similar hue.

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Post #: 19309
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:38:53 AM   
hozay


Posts: 3376
Joined: 13/10/2005
From: the long,dark teatime of the soul
Two episodes in and you couldn't say Capaldi has owned the role. Seems a bit overwhelmed by it all. Maybe he'll work his way into it.
Mind you the writing on these episodes has been a bit ordinary and I'm not sure making the Doctor darker than he already is, is necessary. Tennant's Doctor was a darker and more menacing character than
those before him without being overly brooding or melancholy. That's not to say this new Doctor is that far gone yet but I'd hate to see him without his usual self confidence and optimism, two of his greatest traits.

< Message edited by hozay -- 1/9/2014 11:40:08 AM >

(in reply to kathryn2)
Post #: 19310
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:40:44 AM   
Sotto Voce

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/9/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: kathryn2

I guess I'm the only person who absolutely hated it, then.

I just re-watched Let's Kill Hitler last week, so the re-use of that plot device particularly stood out, but I swear they're also repeating character arcs now. I've seen the Doctor realise that he's no better than a Dalek before. Also, he was rather stupid not to realise what repairing the Dalek would do, and really, Clara had to point out the bleeding obvious that they'd just discovered *how* to make a Dalek 'good'? It's not even the first time that an insane Dalek has decided that the Daleks are evil and need to die - Dalek Caan did that.



There were definitely those flaws. Why did they want the Doctor to fix the dalek? Also, they might have thought to remove the dalek's gun, just in case.

Thinking back, it is very similar to Dalek (series1). I mean, it could have been an alternate draft script for that episode.

_____________________________

All things digested have a similar hue.

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Post #: 19311
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 11:41:34 AM   
kathryn2

 

Posts: 1511
Joined: 24/4/2006
You need some contrast for darkness to work really well. Some light and shade.

Otherwise the Doctor is just a callous bastard.

(in reply to hozay)
Post #: 19312
RE: Doctor Who - 1/9/2014 10:38:07 PM   
Captain Black


Posts: 6697
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: kathryn2
I mean, 'She cares so I don't have to'. Since when has the Doctor not cared?!


I think I know this one: it's when Colin Baker played him isn't it?

(Sorry Colin, I know you get some undeserved stick.)

_____________________________

Invisiotext:
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Post #: 19313
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