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RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 7:35:17 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Yes, spend spend spend year on year, sounds like a good plan.

Do the fans groups have any responsibility here too then, going on your post, for wanting Daglish?


Well when you finish 8th in the league, yeah you have to spend.

Are you suggesting it's the fans fault for getting Daglish hired and sacked?



Yes, I don't think FSG would have appointed Daglish permanently if it wasn't for the fans.

In short reading your posts you want Liverpool to spend beyond their means in the vain hope of maybe finishing 3rd.
This over spending has to be maintained year on year, and if FSG can't manage to support that they should sell up.




Liverpool has been in desperate need of squad revitalization for a couple of seasons now so they do have to spend money, but wisely (6 million for Dempsey) instead of wasting it (35 million for Carroll).

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Post #: 14521
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 7:40:10 PM   
doncopey1


Posts: 4985
Joined: 29/11/2005
From: Liverpool: Age 25
quote:

ORIGINAL: HIM

I'm afraid I have to stand up for FSG here. Rodgers didn't have to let Carroll go out on loan, that was his choice before he'd even met Andy Carroll. He was also given money to buy Joe Allen and Fabio Borini. Yes he had to balance the books but that's just common sense. Let's not forget that when FSG took over we were literally days away from administration. Look at what's happened to Pompey and Rangers. That could have conceivably happened to us. They came in, cleared our debts and secured us some very lucrative sponsorship deals. In less than two years they've managed to successfully tap into our global brand's true worth in a way that clubs like United, Real Madrid and Barcelona have been doing for the past two decades.

They never came in on white horses throwing money around like an Russian or Arab sugar daddy. They always said they wanted to get Liverpool back to the top but not by mortgaging the very existence of the club in the process. The amount of money spent during the ill fated Commolli regime was a mistake which FSG via John W Henry have admitted to. They're new to football and mistakes are bound to happen. But in my opinion they've got a hell of a lot more right than they have wrong.

On the subject of the stadium, yes they promised to build a new stadium or regenerate Anfield but it's not as easy as that. Firstly, a new stadium seating 60,000 fans would cost at least 300m to build. After getting rid of our existing debts it's not realistic to assume FSG have a spare 300m lying around to finance it. Even if they did it's not as though it would be financially viable. FSG wouldn't be spending 300m on 60,000 seats. They'd actually be spending 300m to buy an extra 14,478 seats only, as Anfield currently holds 45,522. That works out as just over 20,700 per seat. Assuming an average ticket price of 40 (for argument's sake) it would take 518 home matches to pay off that 300m. Let's then assume that we'd play 30 home matches a season (19 league guaranteed and then 11 for cups). It would take over 17 years for those extra seats to pay for themselves. Of course that's an extremely simplified view and doesn't take into account such things as naming rights, extra corporate boxes and so on and so forth but it does show that it's a hell of a lot of money to spend on an extra 14,478 seats.

So, the logical option is to do what FSG did with Fenway Park in Boston and renovate the existing stadium, which is their favoured option, and mine as well actually. This has several advantages. For one, it keeps us at Anfield and keeps the world famous atmosphere and history in tact. Secondly, it's much cheaper. Thirdly, the resultant stadium will be, in my opinion, more interesting than a modern, purpose built stadium. For me, stadiums like The Reebok, The Riverside, St Mary's, The DW, The Emirates, The City of Manchester Stadium and even Wembley lack a certain sense of character. They're all very similar symmetrical bowls. I love the fact that every stand at Anfield is different. It's much more organic and interesting. However, the problem with this solution is the surrounding residential area. We need to buy the houses to knock them down to make room for the new, larger stands. However, many people are unwilling to sell.

So, although it all seems to have gone quiet on the stadium front from the outside, behind the scenes people are working on solutions to the problems. It's not as simple as coming up with 300m or simply expanding Anfield. Ask most Arsenal fans if they'd rather be where they are now and not have any trophies to show for the last 7 years or stay at Highbury and not have to sell the likes of Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie and Song. I know which I'd pick.


With all due respect how do you know what goes on behind the scenes? I agree with what your saying but you make FSG sound like saints. So they rescued us from iminent administration which I'll always be grateful for but does that mean they're immune from criticism? No, for me last January they didn't spend anything when we needed something, the summer we needed more and didn't get it. It was a clear disaster from what happened on deadline day, for a start we need a Liverpool based CEO which has been well documented and why we always seem to wait till the last day of the market to buy is again a joke. That suggests to me we look for the cheapest option everytime. I'm all for investing for the future but we aint Man Utd I think something needs to happen in the present. I've got faith in Rodgers and I support his decision to move Carroll on, but it only backfired because the club were inept in not replacing on what Rodgers was told a guarenteed replacement.


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Post #: 14522
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 7:42:36 PM   
doncopey1


Posts: 4985
Joined: 29/11/2005
From: Liverpool: Age 25
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Yes, spend spend spend year on year, sounds like a good plan.

Do the fans groups have any responsibility here too then, going on your post, for wanting Daglish?


Well when you finish 8th in the league, yeah you have to spend.

Are you suggesting it's the fans fault for getting Daglish hired and sacked?



Yes, I don't think FSG would have appointed Daglish permanently if it wasn't for the fans.

In short reading your posts you want Liverpool to spend beyond their means in the vain hope of maybe finishing 3rd.
This over spending has to be maintained year on year, and if FSG can't manage to support that they should sell up.



No spend sensibly. Dempsey is sensible. Apparently he was deemed to old for his price tag by the owners. The manager should have the authority on such matters. They live in fairy land with buying young and all will great for ever. If they want to learn Moneyball watch Newcastle.

< Message edited by doncopey1 -- 7/9/2012 7:43:29 PM >


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Post #: 14523
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 7:46:43 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
What I'd like to know is what sort of sell-on value did they think they would get for Carroll. Even he if had been great for Liverpool did they really think anyone would ever pay anywhere close to 35 million for him again?

Or how about 20 million for a 27 year old?

Absolute nutters.

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Post #: 14524
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 7:59:40 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 9869
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca
What I've learned from Liverpool and this thread so far.

If the manager is not good enough ditch him and get a new one. Bugger the fact that the two styles are poles apart.

If the players aren't good enough buy new ones. Bugger the cost and losses.

If the ground is not big enough build a new one. Bugger the cost and difficulty.

If the owners refuse to do the above tell them to go. Bugger the fact that a sinking juggernaut can't be saved in 2 seasons.

Nest season will be Liverpool's.

< Message edited by Professor Moriarty -- 7/9/2012 8:05:23 PM >

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Post #: 14525
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 7/9/2012 8:25:38 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 7970
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

They are probably pissed off with the 115million that's been spunked on players that have made no impact


I don't blame them, but they sanction the deals at the end of the day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

No spend sensibly. Dempsey is sensible. Apparently he was deemed to old for his price tag by the owners. The manager should have the authority on such matters.



So to clarify, who has the responsibility here for the over spending which put you where you are now having to cut your cloth?
It has to be Daglish going on your last statement, but it was the owners previously when it suited your argument.




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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 14526
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 8/9/2012 7:41:10 AM   
doncopey1


Posts: 4985
Joined: 29/11/2005
From: Liverpool: Age 25

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

They are probably pissed off with the 115million that's been spunked on players that have made no impact


I don't blame them, but they sanction the deals at the end of the day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

No spend sensibly. Dempsey is sensible. Apparently he was deemed to old for his price tag by the owners. The manager should have the authority on such matters.



So to clarify, who has the responsibility here for the over spending which put you where you are now having to cut your cloth?
It has to be Daglish going on your last statement, but it was the owners previously when it suited your argument.





Why do you keep bringing up Daglish? The point I am making in relation to Rodgers because the owners, previous management etc messed up that means the new manager can't be backed? Which he hasn't. Like another prior statement I said to spend sensibly. Under Kenny they didn't but there should be a fine line between backing your manager and how much you spend. Maybe becaus the owners were fairly new, they had Torres money they wanted to show they mean business. That sensible line was crossed with some insane transfers. If the manager comes to you with a 6 mil deal for Dempsey you say sensible. If the manager says 20 mil for Downing you say no as it ain't. There the lines of fine spending and backing your manager. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14527
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 8/9/2012 8:06:35 AM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
Would it be possible that the management before giving the BR the job discussed the transfer kitty. And that he would get 20m and the rest is up to him to generate. So BR shouldn't be under any illusions about what he can have and what he can't.

Could it be that the management will want to see improvement before the high level of investment comes in that you desire? That's sensible by them.

And also is it slightly unfair on Borini, Morgan and Suso that they can't be trusted in handling the pressure until January?

(in reply to doncopey1)
Post #: 14528
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 8/9/2012 8:54:51 AM   
HIM


Posts: 9734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

With all due respect how do you know what goes on behind the scenes?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2159819/John-Henry-says-new-Liverpool-stadium-transform-finances.html

quote:


I agree with what your saying but you make FSG sound like saints. So they rescued us from iminent administration which I'll always be grateful for but does that mean they're immune from criticism? No, for me last January they didn't spend anything when we needed something, the summer we needed more and didn't get it. It was a clear disaster from what happened on deadline day, for a start we need a Liverpool based CEO which has been well documented and why we always seem to wait till the last day of the market to buy is again a joke. That suggests to me we look for the cheapest option everytime. I'm all for investing for the future but we aint Man Utd I think something needs to happen in the present. I've got faith in Rodgers and I support his decision to move Carroll on, but it only backfired because the club were inept in not replacing on what Rodgers was told a guarenteed replacement.


They're not saints but I just thought they needed to be defended. They've made mistakes - and admitted to them, which doesn't happen very often in football - but some of the criticism they're coming in for is ridiculous.

You say we always buy on deadline day because it's cheaper but Allen, Borini, Assaidi and Sahin all came in before deadline day. In the case of Allen and Borini weeks before.

If Dempsey had have come in the owners wouldn't be under this type of scrutiny, which seems a bit ridiculous. It was Rodgers' choice to send Carroll out on loan. It was Rodgers' decision to spend our budget on 3 midfielders and 1 striker. Obviously something went array on the final day when Rodgers was under the impression that a new striker was a certainty but both sides have admitted that it was a mistake and it needs ironing out.

Both Rodgers and FSG share a similar vision for a club that plays attractive, attacking, possession football and one that nurtures youth and spends within it's means. That isn't just a change of tactics for the team, its a complete change of philosophy of the club from the top down. It's going to take time and I'm willing to give it to them (Rodgers and FSG).

(in reply to doncopey1)
Post #: 14529
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 8/9/2012 11:25:27 AM   
Rinc


Posts: 12761
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: HIM

Both Rodgers and FSG share a similar vision for a club that plays attractive, attacking, possession football and one that nurtures youth and spends within it's means. That isn't just a change of tactics for the team, its a complete change of philosophy of the club from the top down. It's going to take time and I'm willing to give it to them (Rodgers and FSG).


Here here.

This is going to take time and it may well get worse before it gets better, but if the club's going to have a vision it's got to stick to it. Rodgers and FSG have already made mistakes but then everyone does.

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Post #: 14530
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 8/9/2012 2:53:56 PM   
HIM


Posts: 9734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe
Exactly. We're not going to win the league any time soon because we simply cannot attract the talent necessary. We don't have the finances to compete with City, Chelsea or United. Our competition is Arsenal and Spurs. We're basically competing with those two clubs for the remaining Champions League spot. That's our aim. Once we get to that level we can start generating more revenue to attract better players and also give them the lure of playing in the Champions League. Only then will we be able to start mounting a serious challenge for the league title again. It's going to take at least two years, minimum. Plus we may get a boost from the financial fair play initiative that may come into force in the 2014 season. By then City and Chelsea should find it harder to spend more than they generate.

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Post #: 14531
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 9/9/2012 8:03:36 AM   
Rinc


Posts: 12761
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt
I think it's important to note that our team is very young (Arsene Wenger 2005). Suarez, Lucas, Assaidi, Pacheco, Henderson, Coates, Allen, Borini, Suso, Sterling, Shelvey, Kelly, Sahin, Robinson and Morgan are all 25 and under. Only Gerrard, Cole and our keepers are 30 or older.

We're a young team with a new, young manager, implementing a new philosophy.

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Post #: 14532
JFT 96 - 12/9/2012 12:52:44 PM   
pocketrocket

 

Posts: 1159
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: age frais
At last after 23 years, now we need a fresh inquiry.

JFT 96

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Post #: 14533
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 5:59:55 PM   
emogeek


Posts: 21807
Joined: 15/4/2006
From: Satan's Trampoline
Same old, same old...

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Post #: 14534
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:00:04 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
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Post #: 14535
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:07:36 PM   
emogeek


Posts: 21807
Joined: 15/4/2006
From: Satan's Trampoline
Deserved yellow. Suarez you fucking tit

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Post #: 14536
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:43:28 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
Liverpool are crying out for a tall striker who can hold up play and stick the ball in the back of the net.


I bet you're regretting selling Peter Crouch now.

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Post #: 14537
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:50:11 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
Chamakh Downing to the rescue!

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Post #: 14538
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:50:26 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4259
Joined: 5/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Liverpool are crying out for a tall striker who can hold up play and stick the ball in the back of the net.


I bet you're regretting selling Peter Crouch now.

or Heskey..

(in reply to directorscut)
Post #: 14539
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:57:13 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
Never in doubt

Titus Bramble looks like he's swallowed Emile Heskey, btw.

< Message edited by directorscut -- 15/9/2012 6:58:04 PM >


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Post #: 14540
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 6:59:43 PM   
Nexus Wookie


Posts: 2326
Joined: 24/9/2011
From: the Godcity
Hold the boat! Ol' Buck Tooth has scored! Can Liverpool find a winner?

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Post #: 14541
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 7:04:35 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
Pop quiz hotshot.

YOU are Stuart Downing, rampaging down the left wing. You have two choices. Do you:

a) Continue your run into acres of space and perhaps cross the ball into the box

or

b) Pass the ball to Luis Suarez who is surrounded by no less than five Sunderland players and promptly lose the ball.


?

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Post #: 14542
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 7:29:35 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4259
Joined: 5/2/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Pop quiz hotshot.

YOU are Stuart Downing, rampaging down the left wing. You have two choices. Do you:

a) Continue your run into acres of space and perhaps cross the ball into the box

or

b) Pass the ball to Luis Suarez who is surrounded by no less than five Sunderland players and promptly lose the ball.


?


If I am Stuart Downing then I'll choose option (b).Passing to a player who is surrounded by opposing players seems far more logical.

< Message edited by OPEN YOUR EYES -- 15/9/2012 7:37:17 PM >

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Post #: 14543
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 8:46:01 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
A very good penalty shout
Two shots against the woodwork
And a decent performance by the opposition goalkeeper

Sounds familiar?

I see very good elements with this team as I did with Kenny's last season. But the failure to convert possession into chances and then to put said chances away have been RE-HEALLY annoying for last 15 months. But ridiculous talk about BR being given just a few more games before the chop is not helping as the negatives from short sighted/trolling spectators get far too much air time when really the positives in Sterling, Allen and Shelvey should be everyone's highlights.

Borini is given too much flack also when its not justified. 21 and leading a goal shy team shouldn't sit on his shoulders alone. Suarez must do more. Gerrard must do even more. Senior players aren't helping this team move forward.

Maybe just maybe BR's background in dealing with youth teams and a young team in Swansea indicates that he is better in preparing youthful, enthusiastic and sponge like players. And possible doesn't have the same effect with elder statesmen who are surer of their game.

BR and this Liverpool team will improve and improve that I don't doubt. But realization that the improvements will take time is a fact that all who watch must be aware of.

You Will Never Walk Alone.

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Post #: 14544
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 10:37:57 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12761
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt
Gerrard has been our worst player this season apart from Reina. I don't think that's an exaggeration.

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Post #: 14545
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 11:05:14 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
He just hasn't got going has he ? But he's not gonna get dropped any time soon. He is the link between the forwards and midfield and its so crucial that he or whoever plays in that position plays well.

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Post #: 14546
RE: JFT 96 - 15/9/2012 11:35:36 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
Odd that Shearer's analysis of Gerrard's vs. Allen's passing game didn't include all those times Gerrard gave the ball away trying those flashy passes.

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Post #: 14547
RE: JFT 96 - 16/9/2012 12:27:33 AM   
Saltire


Posts: 1973
Joined: 5/7/2011
From: Dundee
Allen wasn't great either yesterday tbh though, some of his passing was just woeful or never on.

Liverpool are such a schizophrenic team, awful mostly, yet creative at others - if only they had finishers they'd be dangerous!

At least I won a few quid on the draw.

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Post #: 14548
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 16/9/2012 7:17:45 PM   
doncopey1


Posts: 4985
Joined: 29/11/2005
From: Liverpool: Age 25

quote:

ORIGINAL: HIM


quote:

ORIGINAL: doncopey1

With all due respect how do you know what goes on behind the scenes?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2159819/John-Henry-says-new-Liverpool-stadium-transform-finances.html

quote:


I agree with what your saying but you make FSG sound like saints. So they rescued us from iminent administration which I'll always be grateful for but does that mean they're immune from criticism? No, for me last January they didn't spend anything when we needed something, the summer we needed more and didn't get it. It was a clear disaster from what happened on deadline day, for a start we need a Liverpool based CEO which has been well documented and why we always seem to wait till the last day of the market to buy is again a joke. That suggests to me we look for the cheapest option everytime. I'm all for investing for the future but we aint Man Utd I think something needs to happen in the present. I've got faith in Rodgers and I support his decision to move Carroll on, but it only backfired because the club were inept in not replacing on what Rodgers was told a guarenteed replacement.


They're not saints but I just thought they needed to be defended. They've made mistakes - and admitted to them, which doesn't happen very often in football - but some of the criticism they're coming in for is ridiculous.

You say we always buy on deadline day because it's cheaper but Allen, Borini, Assaidi and Sahin all came in before deadline day. In the case of Allen and Borini weeks before.

If Dempsey had have come in the owners wouldn't be under this type of scrutiny, which seems a bit ridiculous. It was Rodgers' choice to send Carroll out on loan. It was Rodgers' decision to spend our budget on 3 midfielders and 1 striker. Obviously something went array on the final day when Rodgers was under the impression that a new striker was a certainty but both sides have admitted that it was a mistake and it needs ironing out.

Both Rodgers and FSG share a similar vision for a club that plays attractive, attacking, possession football and one that nurtures youth and spends within it's means. That isn't just a change of tactics for the team, its a complete change of philosophy of the club from the top down. It's going to take time and I'm willing to give it to them (Rodgers and FSG).


Haha so Henry says a new stadium or stadium capacity gross is not really a good idea? But instead a big company give us lots of money for stadium naming rights to which they won't add to the squad. We've already nailed TV deals this year, the biggest kit supplier sponsorship in history and wiped off a huge amount from a colossal wage bill. I'm really sold that these owners need to move on. Thanks for steadying the ship but time to sell up.

On Rodgers I believe he'll get it right, back him morally and financially and he'll take us places in time.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14549
RE: Liverpool - 2005/06 - 17/9/2012 1:12:49 AM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 4984
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
Great to see some solidarity from the sunderland fans yesterday. The mesage on the screen was a simple but touching gesture too.

As for the football - christ, you lot need a goalscorer.

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Post #: 14550
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