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RE: Superman Returns - 22/4/2007 6:50:37 PM   
Axel Foley


Posts: 731
Joined: 15/10/2005
The criticism itself seems to relate to the same things over and over. Supermanís done this before, there was nothing new, why have Lex try and take over the planet again. Yet, for example James Bondís return in Casino Royale didnít seem to meet such criticism, despite it following much the same formula as all the other Bond films.

Now Iím probably about to be told the character itself was the new element, but then wasnít that the case with Bryan Singerís Superman? Furryb makes a great point about the relationship between Lex and Superman, which is well worked within the comic book format.

Singer also adds a spiritual layer, which I remember discussing with others much earlier in the thread. I get the idea those posts got deleted, so itís worth re-stating that Singer was presenting a sensitive saviour figure, who is saddened by what he sees as having happened since he left the world.  Itís briefly alluded to as Superman catches sight of an atrocity on television, the idea being that without a saviour we have ended up destroying ourselves. Whether this is something anyone believes is another matter, but the fact is it is a new context for viewing the story.

Furthermore we have a hero who canít take the thing he wants most: Lois. His love for her even briefly has a darker edge as he stalks after her, but he fights that urge to do the right thing, his frustration manifesting itself in his flight. Watch the graceful way he takes off and lands (again something weíd not seen before) and see the emotion it involves; it is part of his character growth.

The sequence as he and Lois glide across the skyline is both beautiful and romantic (Singerís Casablanca influence is apparent here) and also underscores the difficulty of their relationship: people can fly in planes but not like this. Loisís need for Superman juxtaposes with the question of whether the world needs a saviour, which is one of the filmís main themes. At this point Lois is realising the folly of her article, which she is later seen to overturn with a new piece.

I guess if people were after things getting destroyed for 2 hours this wasnít the film they wanted, but Singer obviously had higher ambitions for his film. Of course the plane rescue, metropolis protection and continent hurling were pretty darned spectacular and the film also had a smart line in humour (I do like the cut to ďtofu or veggie wrapĒ after the heavier moment that proceeds it). Ultimately you can take from it what you want, but of the recent run of summer blockbusters it was one of the most ambitious.

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Post #: 211
RE: Superman Returns - 23/4/2007 11:30:08 PM   
darth silas


Posts: 4949
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: My living room
if by being ambitious you mean making the movie a complete rehash of the richard donner original,going so far as to replicate entire scenes and even using some of that movies key dialogue,then yes,i guess it was ambitious.

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Post #: 212
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 23/4/2007 11:34:34 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

I think empire went way over the top giving this one five stars. Its†mildly enteraining but despite they excellent idea of supermam having a sun there is nothing new realy happening. The relationship beetween clerk and louise is exactly the same, the same old effects, and lex has another evil plan to ruin the world and superman saves the day leaving lex alive to make another film. Old Stuff.


Sorry, but these really made me laugh.
Supermam!!!
Oh, quite the childish bitter banter, this is a forum for civil talk about movies but not a playschool. Grow up.†

Get a sense of humour, you miserable bugger!

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Post #: 213
RE: Superman Returns - 23/4/2007 11:35:30 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
should anyone be allowed to comment on Superman Returns if they name the main characters as Clerk and Louise?

cracking! maybe got mixed up with his own name.................. or is it?

Dr Doom by night - arch nemesis to the Fantastic Four and Mr Doom by day - tea boy.

< Message edited by The Lensman -- 23/4/2007 11:38:42 PM >

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Post #: 214
RE: Superman Returns - 23/4/2007 11:41:46 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14
He may use diffrent strageries but its still the same old lex trying to destroy the world and as always he fails.


Were you expecting him to succeed? By your reasoning all the Spider-Man, Batman and pretty much any Holllywood film ever is the exact same. Bad guy loses, good guy wins against the odds etc. etc. It's a tried and tested formula.

The film is entertaining because of these "different strategies", because of how events unfold. You know what's going to happen when you go see Spider-Man 3 for example; the fun part is how they get there.

No I wasnt expecting him to suceed. I think bad guy tries hero wins formuila is excellent for an entertaining movie but I just think that formulia is getting used to many times with Lex in the superman franchise. My point is Byran Singer just used the exact same formuila of the past superman films, he did nothing fresh or new. A poor effort from Singer.


im really sorry dr oh sorry..... mr doom 14!

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Post #: 215
RE: Superman Returns - 24/4/2007 1:21:56 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5187
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
Krytonite is real! 

Link

Interesting to see even hardcore scientists watched Superman Returns

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Post #: 216
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:33:18 PM   
mrdoom14


Posts: 1774
Joined: 14/10/2006
From: Scotland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

I think empire went way over the top giving this one five stars. Its mildly enteraining but despite they excellent idea of supermam having a sun there is nothing new realy happening. The relationship beetween clerk and louise is exactly the same, the same old effects, and lex has another evil plan to ruin the world and superman saves the day leaving lex alive to make another film. Old Stuff.


Sorry, but these really made me laugh.
Supermam!!!
Oh, quite the childish bitter banter, this is a forum for civil talk about movies but not a playschool. Grow up. 

Get a sense of humour, you miserable bugger!
I do have a sense of humoure, I just dont laugh at stupid imature comments from imature buggers like you.

< Message edited by mrdoom14 -- 24/4/2007 1:34:42 PM >


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Post #: 217
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:39:39 PM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
To be fair, writing "supermam having a sun" is quite amusing.

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Post #: 218
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:40:40 PM   
mrdoom14


Posts: 1774
Joined: 14/10/2006
From: Scotland
quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

To be fair, writing "supermam having a sun" is quite amusing.
Well I dont find it the slightest funny.

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Post #: 219
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:43:35 PM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
You do realise that as well as "supermam", it's "son", and not "sun"?  If you take a little more care with your grammar and spelling you leave yourself less open to mickey-taking.

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Post #: 220
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:52:31 PM   
mrdoom14


Posts: 1774
Joined: 14/10/2006
From: Scotland
quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

You do realise that as well as "supermam", it's "son", and not "sun"?  If you take a little more care with your grammar and spelling you leave yourself less open to mickey-taking.
Yes I know that. It was just a accident.

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Post #: 221
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:54:13 PM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
Precisely, it was an accident, it amused people (myself included).  Get over it.

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Post #: 222
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:55:58 PM   
mrdoom14


Posts: 1774
Joined: 14/10/2006
From: Scotland
quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

Precisely, it was an accident, it amused people (myself included).  Get over it.
But it aint very funny. Its a simple accident which people are just being way imature about.

< Message edited by mrdoom14 -- 24/4/2007 1:57:27 PM >


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Post #: 223
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 1:56:59 PM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
MrDoom, accept that people found it funny, move on.

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Post #: 224
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 3:26:52 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! (Homer laugh!)

i found it funny!

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Post #: 225
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 3:28:01 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! (Homer laugh!)

i found it funny!

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Post #: 226
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 3:38:27 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrdoom14

quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

Precisely, it was an accident, it amused people (myself included).† Get over it.
But it aint very†funny. Its a simple accident which people are just†being way imature about.

It was just a typo that conjured up a very funny image, mrdoom14.
I wasn't laughing at you personally.
I just read the word "Supermam" and laughed.
You clearly have had a sense of humour bypass but if you are going to spell words so poorly, then there will be funny results.
Its a little hard to not smile at YOU describing anyone as immature though.
Anyway I apologise if my laughing at mispelled words offended you.

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Post #: 227
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 4:32:34 PM   
mrdoom14


Posts: 1774
Joined: 14/10/2006
From: Scotland
 
quote:

Anyway I apologise if my laughing at mispelled words offended you.

Thanks for apologiseing.

quote:


Its a little hard to not smile at YOU describing anyone as immature though.
What is that suppsed  to mean.




< Message edited by mrdoom14 -- 24/4/2007 4:38:20 PM >


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Post #: 228
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 4:34:00 PM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
The subject of MrDoom's typos is closed.  Any further comments about it will be deleted.

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Post #: 229
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 4:41:30 PM   
The Lensman


Posts: 1731
Joined: 15/3/2007
quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

The subject of MrDoom's typos is closed.  Any further comments about it will be deleted.


yes boss!

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Post #: 230
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 5:16:52 PM   
coolstar

 

Posts: 1846
Joined: 9/1/2007
A Superman movie is not a superman movie with out Christopher Reeve. I can watch the first film anytime but the rest no thank you .

I wish they never made superman returns

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Post #: 231
RE: Don't waste 2 1/2 hours! - 24/4/2007 5:18:46 PM   
coolstar

 

Posts: 1846
Joined: 9/1/2007
A superman movie is not a superman movie with out Christopher Reeve . I can watch the first movie anytime but the rest no thank you .


I wish they never made superman returns

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Post #: 232
RE: Superman Returns - 24/4/2007 5:25:29 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5187
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: coolstar

A superman movie is not a superman movie with out Christopher Reeve . I can watch the first movie anytime but the rest no thank you


Don't be ridiculous

Routh did a great job and I'm sure Reeves would have been more than supportive had he been alive at the time (in keepnig with his personality). The film pays tribute to Reeves, it doesn't take anything away from his performance in the first film.

Also, Superman II to IV also featured Christopher Reeves as Superman so your post contradicts itself.

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Post #: 233
RE: Superman Returns - 24/4/2007 5:45:51 PM   
darth silas


Posts: 4949
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: My living room
i think my girlfriend said it best after we saw superman returns.i asked how would she compare reeve and routh? she said ''christopher reeve was SUPERMAN.brandon routh was SUPERBOY!

not saying i agree with her or not.despite the fact i found the movie very disappointing,i did like brandon routh as supes.

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Post #: 234
RE: Superman Returns - 24/4/2007 6:26:36 PM   
The Mighty


Posts: 1743
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: coolstar

A superman movie is not a superman movie with out Christopher Reeve . I can watch the first movie anytime but the rest no thank you


Don't be ridiculous

Routh did a great job and I'm sure Reeves would have been more than supportive had he been alive at the time (in keepnig with his personality). The film pays tribute to Reeves, it doesn't take anything away from his performance in the first film.

Also, Superman II to IV also featured Christopher Reeves as Superman so your post contradicts itself.



Exactly. I was amazed at how good Routh was as Superman, and Christopher Reeves would have been proud. He managed to remind me of Reeves without simply channelling him, and created a kind of honest sensibility around the character.
About these complaints about having Superman face Lex again. You can't make Superman return without bringing back his nemesis. It would just seem so... wrong.

And, sorry to bring this up again, but mrdoom14, Empire Online does have a spell check function if you want to avoid any spelling mistakes.

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Post #: 235
RE: Superman Returns - 24/4/2007 6:30:34 PM   
The Mighty


Posts: 1743
Joined: 30/9/2005
Double post

< Message edited by The Mighty -- 24/4/2007 6:31:39 PM >

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Post #: 236
RE: Superman Returns - 25/4/2007 2:00:53 AM   
krudler


Posts: 7018
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

i think my girlfriend said it best after we saw superman returns.i asked how would she compare reeve and routh? she said ''christopher reeve was SUPERMAN.brandon routh was SUPERBOY!

not saying i agree with her or not.despite the fact i found the movie very disappointing,i did like brandon routh as supes.


you know reeves and routh were the same age when they played superman right?


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Post #: 237
RE: Superman Returns - 25/4/2007 8:38:06 AM   
jimbo909


Posts: 799
Joined: 24/10/2006
From: Pepperland
quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard

Oh please, the film was hardly a mess. If nothing else, it was an excellently crafted film, beautifully shot and directed.

As for Luthor, I see where you're coming from. However, I don't think its fair to compare it to a character like Batman who, by his very nature, requires a multitude of villains to challenge him in different areas (The Riddler for his detective side, Two Face is his mirror image in many ways, Joker is psychologically the other side of the same coin).

In the Superman films (and comics) it has always been Luthor who is the real threat to Superman - not just physically (i.e. with kryptonite) but also symbolically. In Returns, Luthor describes himself as a Promethean figure, one who is ultimately helping mankind by stealing fire from the gods. In this instance Superman is the god, selfishly using his powers for egotistical means (Luthor's perspective). For all his dastardly acts, Luthor actually thinks he's the hero; he's the saviour of mankind and Superman has undeservedly usurped his rightful place. Luthor wants to be Superman.

I've always seen the two as brothers; Superman is the favoured son, the one who gets the powers, the acclaim, the reputation while Luthor is the disappointment and holds all the bitterness and jealousy inherent in that kind of relationship. Yet he has the luxury of freedom without any of the responsibilites Superman has, who must literally and metaphorically carry the world on his shoulders.

In my opinion (and I'm sure it differs with yours and many other peoples'!), Singer was the only one to create this kind of relationship so effectively. In both the story and the themes it was dealing with, I believe Luthor was a necessity, an essential cog in the film's machinery. A character like Darkseid or Brainiac wouldn't fit, wouldn't present the kind of symbolic challenges necessary for this particular film. Without Luthor, the film has no real depth, no thematic coherence.

For the sequel, I think they need to present a more physical threat for Superman but Luthor will ultimately be the main villain behind events, controlling the situation and creating the threat.



I usually high-light the bits I am refering to/agree with in bold but I wont bother this time since I agree with the entire post. Spot on!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Axel Foley

The criticism itself seems to relate to the same things over and over. Supermanís done this before, there was nothing new, why have Lex try and take over the planet again. Yet, for example James Bondís return in Casino Royale didnít seem to meet such criticism, despite it following much the same formula as all the other Bond films.

Now Iím probably about to be told the character itself was the new element, but then wasnít that the case with Bryan Singerís Superman? Furryb makes a great point about the relationship between Lex and Superman, which is well worked within the comic book format.

Singer also adds a spiritual layer, which I remember discussing with others much earlier in the thread. I get the idea those posts got deleted, so itís worth re-stating that Singer was presenting a sensitive saviour figure, who is saddened by what he sees as having happened since he left the world.  Itís briefly alluded to as Superman catches sight of an atrocity on television, the idea being that without a saviour we have ended up destroying ourselves. Whether this is something anyone believes is another matter, but the fact is it is a new context for viewing the story.

Furthermore we have a hero who canít take the thing he wants most: Lois. His love for her even briefly has a darker edge as he stalks after her, but he fights that urge to do the right thing, his frustration manifesting itself in his flight. Watch the graceful way he takes off and lands (again something weíd not seen before) and see the emotion it involves; it is part of his character growth.

The sequence as he and Lois glide across the skyline is both beautiful and romantic (Singerís Casablanca influence is apparent here) and also underscores the difficulty of their relationship: people can fly in planes but not like this. Loisís need for Superman juxtaposes with the question of whether the world needs a saviour, which is one of the filmís main themes. At this point Lois is realising the folly of her article, which she is later seen to overturn with a new piece.

I guess if people were after things getting destroyed for 2 hours this wasnít the film they wanted, but Singer obviously had higher ambitions for his film. Of course the plane rescue, metropolis protection and continent hurling were pretty darned spectacular and the film also had a smart line in humour (I do like the cut to ďtofu or veggie wrapĒ after the heavier moment that proceeds it). Ultimately you can take from it what you want, but of the recent run of summer blockbusters it was one of the most ambitious.



And the same again here.

I loved Superman Returns, I thought it was a well-crafted masterpiece. Think about the shit super-hero movies that were thrown together in the 90's, Spawn, Judge Dread, Batman's Forever and Robin. I think it's wonderful that we can now enjoy super-hero movies that are made by people who really respect and understand the source material and the characters.

Bring on Man of Steel and The Dark Knight. If the level of quality that we have seen is maintained, I can't wait!

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Post #: 238
RE: Superman Returns - 25/4/2007 8:44:01 PM   
darth silas


Posts: 4949
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: My living room
quote:

ORIGINAL: krudler

quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

i think my girlfriend said it best after we saw superman returns.i asked how would she compare reeve and routh? she said ''christopher reeve was SUPERMAN.brandon routh was SUPERBOY!

not saying i agree with her or not.despite the fact i found the movie very disappointing,i did like brandon routh as supes.


you know reeves and routh were the same age when they played superman right?

i know.i think her point was that christopher reeve was more ''manly'' than routh.

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Post #: 239
RE: Superman Returns - 25/4/2007 8:51:42 PM   
The Mighty


Posts: 1743
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

quote:

ORIGINAL: krudler

quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

i think my girlfriend said it best after we saw superman returns.i asked how would she compare reeve and routh? she said ''christopher reeve was SUPERMAN.brandon routh was SUPERBOY!

not saying i agree with her or not.despite the fact i found the movie very disappointing,i did like brandon routh as supes.


you know reeves and routh were the same age when they played superman right?

i know.i think her point was that christopher reeve was more ''manly'' than routh.


Is Superman supposed to be manly?

(in reply to darth silas)
Post #: 240
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