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RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 9:11:26 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But did they then ask the obvious question - how many other films through the years have they all voted for without bothering to watch them? They certainly don't watch all the films eligible which is joke enough.

Such silliness




It might go a long way to explaining why Slave seemed so weak throughout the season yet always took picture.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 211
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 9:22:54 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54596
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But did they then ask the obvious question - how many other films through the years have they all voted for without bothering to watch them? They certainly don't watch all the films eligible which is joke enough.

Such silliness




It might go a long way to explaining why Slave seemed so weak throughout the season yet always took picture.


But isn't that just a bit of conjecture - a sour grapes article with 2 anonymous claimed sources gives them a reason to believe why a film won they didn't want to win? It just seems a bit conspiracy theory, esp given how odd the pro and anti sides seem to have been this year - maybe a pop at those pro-12 obsessives for example.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 212
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 9:32:30 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
If it hadn't been so weak all season, then I'd agree. But Slave underperformed dramatically. It didn't have the guild support, couldn't sweep the Baftas, couldn't establish a frontrunner in any category in the precursors. Then it wins best picture against a film that not only won the more minor technical awards, but also took the bigger ones like cinematography and editing, and also took director. The last time a film won so many Oscars, and director, yet still missed out on picture was over 40 years ago. It's a bizarre year, whatever the reason for that split. I mean it's not often where you have a year where the hot favourite to win best picture is considered to either not be the favourite, or be in a two way race with another strong competitor, in every other category.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 213
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 9:56:15 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54596
Joined: 1/10/2005
It was an odd mix in the categories though. Such a strong best actor with McConnaughey always a favourite - ditto on Support. It did get writing as well so is it possible this goes back to the comment you made earlier - it's those 2nd/3rd/4th votes etc that were really coming into play? Numberswise I think a pretty persuasive argument can be made for that and it did tie with Gravity at the PGAs. Or could it be as simple that even though the individual actors chose actors elsewhere, when it came to film they gave more credit to an impressive acting ensemble than a space film, both of which were likelier winners than the one they gave their ensemble to. Aren't they still the biggest voting block?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 214
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 10:16:58 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
But if that was the case, wouldn't it have won the SAG ensemble award? Or wouldn't American Hustle, which the actors clearly loved (and did win the SAG) have taken picture? And Hustle was more loved by the Academy at nomination stage than Slave. Ten nominations to nine. And for actors to nominate the same film in all four categories is rare. Slave can't really be seen as the actor's favourite, Hustle has that nailed. And Hustle fits perfectly with winners like Argo and The Departed, it was more than likely a good shot for the win until the precursors started. But that's what I mean, even with writing, it wasn't the favourite going in. For some reason it wasn't eligible for the WGA, so it was impossible to judge there, but it lost out at the Bafta, so again, it couldn't be seen as the hot favourite going in.

I think the second/third place votes definitely helped, which is a large part of the reason why I think they're a stupid idea. All the other categories are a straight vote to win, picture should be that as well. It gives too much opportunity for gameplaying. Someone hasn't seen Slave or Gravity, but knows the race is between them, they decide a slavery drama should win over a space film, so they vote for the films they have seen in positions 1 - 7, then put Slave over Gravity in eighth, or even the other way round if they think a blockbuster should be rewarded. Their vote still counts for a film they haven't seen.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 215
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 10:19:09 PM   
matty_b


Posts: 14569
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
I always found The Pianist an odd case - it wins three of the biggest ones, yet still misses out on Film.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze
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(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 216
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 10:30:36 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Yeah, that's another oddity. I think before the Oscar it only really won at the Baftas, it completely missed out with the Guilds, the Globes, etc.

(in reply to matty_b)
Post #: 217
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 10:35:18 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54596
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

But if that was the case, wouldn't it have won the SAG ensemble award? Or wouldn't American Hustle, which the actors clearly loved (and did win the SAG) have taken picture? And Hustle was more loved by the Academy at nomination stage than Slave. Ten nominations to nine. And for actors to nominate the same film in all four categories is rare. Slave can't really be seen as the actor's favourite, Hustle has that nailed. And Hustle fits perfectly with winners like Argo and The Departed, it was more than likely a good shot for the win until the precursors started. But that's what I mean, even with writing, it wasn't the favourite going in. For some reason it wasn't eligible for the WGA, so it was impossible to judge there, but it lost out at the Bafta, so again, it couldn't be seen as the hot favourite going in.

I think the second/third place votes definitely helped, which is a large part of the reason why I think they're a stupid idea. All the other categories are a straight vote to win, picture should be that as well. It gives too much opportunity for gameplaying. Someone hasn't seen Slave or Gravity, but knows the race is between them, they decide a slavery drama should win over a space film, so they vote for the films they have seen in positions 1 - 7, then put Slave over Gravity in eighth, or even the other way round if they think a blockbuster should be rewarded. Their vote still counts for a film they haven't seen.


That 2 'anonymous' people are claimed not to have seen - I think that's quite important. In an article that gives the film absolutely no credit for quality and all but says outright it only won because of racial issues - the LA Times piece isn't, IMO, remotely balanced making also, IMO, their conspiracy theory very suspect. I'm not sure what credit can be given to assertions balancing on such shaky ground. It may well be the article is also coloured by the pre-race idiocy you've spoken about before - they're so annoyed at the zealots saying it had to win that this is payback. Do the 2 voters exist? If so, what proof of their vote - are they putting the boot in to a film they actually hated? Who knows.

Just in case (!) - I'd have been happy with either tbh. Possibly have tipped to 12 Years (mainly because I'm still not sure what Gravity will be like without the technical wizardry laid large on the big screen but I doubt the power of 12 Years will change a whit), but would have been more than fine with Gravity which I enjoyed hugely and I think that was on my noms here - they were my favourites from the options available.

I'm just going curse them all from my corner anyway, at the lack of The Great Beauty

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 218
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 6/3/2014 11:02:06 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

That 2 'anonymous' people are claimed not to have seen - I think that's quite important. In an article that gives the film absolutely no credit for quality and all but says outright it only won because of racial issues - the LA Times piece isn't, IMO, remotely balanced making also, IMO, their conspiracy theory very suspect. I'm not sure what credit can be given to assertions balancing on such shaky ground. It may well be the article is also coloured by the pre-race idiocy you've spoken about before - they're so annoyed at the zealots saying it had to win that this is payback. Do the 2 voters exist? If so, what proof of their vote - are they putting the boot in to a film they actually hated? Who knows.



I don't think race won it for the film, but I do think creating a narrative that emphasises the importance of one film over another can play a part in establish perspectives of the Oscar race itself.

The thing is that quality doesn't really enter into the discussion. Regardless of what any of us think about the films nominated, we have to accept that that a substantial portion of the voters already view the film of being of a certain quality, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for them. So for a nine film year, 600 voters out of the 6000 thought each film was of a quality high enough to deserve the best picture win. So I think for discussions about why a film won, you have to begin with the assumption that quality wasn't an issue, a significant portion of voters already loved it. The trouble with that voting system now is that it does give an out to people who don't want to watch a film, or for them to pay back old scores in a way a straight vote to win system doesn't. If someone has enough of a problem with a certain film, then they are always able to block it winning in this system, while before they either had to vote for the film they liked best, or the film they hoped would be its biggest challenger.

If Slave had swept, or even if it had took picture and director, or a significant portion of precursors, then nobody would have an argument to make. But a certain section of supporters created a false narrative that the film was more important, therefore more deserving to win. And don't forget, Slave was the film getting comments all over the internet that it was going to sweep, simply because the Academy had to recognise its importance. Those same supporters then tried their best to downplay Gravity, suggesting it was simply undeserving because it was just a blockbuster. No attempts at addressing quality there either. Some of those supporters even went on to label all those who disagreed as racist. The actual Oscars was a two film race, with one film winning practically everything it was nominated for, including director, and the other just picking up a couple of wins where it could. I think at best you have to expect people to find that unusual, at worst you have to expect a backlash, especially considering how unpleasant some of the Slave fans made this season. It was genuinely the most hateful I can remember since Brokeback/Crash. The only real reason that the idea that Slave won because it was important is even part of the discussion is because Slave fans made it part of the discussion. And I genuinely don't think those people are even film fans, I don't get an attitude from them that they're passionate about cinema. They just want their team to win. And it's wearying. I mean seeing people get called racist because they thought a film about slavery was lacking is just seriously unpleasant. Luckily, you don't get much of that kind of stupidity at actual film sites. The people here, for example, who wanted Slave to win, I believe it's because they genuinely thought it the best of the nominees. You get some arseholes who try to talk down to others who didn't like it as much as them, but they're in the minority and usually the kind of people who are just arseholes in general.

Personally, I didn't care which of the two films won. I liked them both, I preferred Gravity, but I'm pleased both McQueen and Pitt have Oscars now. My favourite films rarely get nominated, let alone win, and my favourites of the films nominated stood no chance of a picture win. I'm just fascinated by the process that does lead to these kind of oddities.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 219
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 7/3/2014 12:54:58 AM   
MonsterCat


Posts: 7934
Joined: 24/3/2011
From: St. Albans, Hertfordshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

I always found The Pianist an odd case - it wins three of the biggest ones, yet still misses out on Film.


And it's utter bollocks.

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(in reply to matty_b)
Post #: 220
RE: Oscars 2014 - the predictions! - 7/3/2014 3:18:41 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54596
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

That 2 'anonymous' people are claimed not to have seen - I think that's quite important. In an article that gives the film absolutely no credit for quality and all but says outright it only won because of racial issues - the LA Times piece isn't, IMO, remotely balanced making also, IMO, their conspiracy theory very suspect. I'm not sure what credit can be given to assertions balancing on such shaky ground. It may well be the article is also coloured by the pre-race idiocy you've spoken about before - they're so annoyed at the zealots saying it had to win that this is payback. Do the 2 voters exist? If so, what proof of their vote - are they putting the boot in to a film they actually hated? Who knows.



I don't think race won it for the film, but I do think creating a narrative that emphasises the importance of one film over another can play a part in establish perspectives of the Oscar race itself.


I think you have to be right on that one - it probably feeds into the virtual absence of some genres on the winners' podium.

quote:

The thing is that quality doesn't really enter into the discussion. Regardless of what any of us think about the films nominated, we have to accept that that a substantial portion of the voters already view the film of being of a certain quality, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for them. So for a nine film year, 600 voters out of the 6000 thought each film was of a quality high enough to deserve the best picture win. So I think for discussions about why a film won, you have to begin with the assumption that quality wasn't an issue, a significant portion of voters already loved it. The trouble with that voting system now is that it does give an out to people who don't want to watch a film, or for them to pay back old scores in a way a straight vote to win system doesn't. If someone has enough of a problem with a certain film, then they are always able to block it winning in this system, while before they either had to vote for the film they liked best, or the film they hoped would be its biggest challenger.

If Slave had swept, or even if it had took picture and director, or a significant portion of precursors, then nobody would have an argument to make. But a certain section of supporters created a false narrative that the film was more important, therefore more deserving to win. And don't forget, Slave was the film getting comments all over the internet that it was going to sweep, simply because the Academy had to recognise its importance. Those same supporters then tried their best to downplay Gravity, suggesting it was simply undeserving because it was just a blockbuster. No attempts at addressing quality there either. Some of those supporters even went on to label all those who disagreed as racist. The actual Oscars was a two film race, with one film winning practically everything it was nominated for, including director, and the other just picking up a couple of wins where it could. I think at best you have to expect people to find that unusual, at worst you have to expect a backlash, especially considering how unpleasant some of the Slave fans made this season. It was genuinely the most hateful I can remember since Brokeback/Crash. The only real reason that the idea that Slave won because it was important is even part of the discussion is because Slave fans made it part of the discussion. And I genuinely don't think those people are even film fans, I don't get an attitude from them that they're passionate about cinema. They just want their team to win. And it's wearying. I mean seeing people get called racist because they thought a film about slavery was lacking is just seriously unpleasant. Luckily, you don't get much of that kind of stupidity at actual film sites. The people here, for example, who wanted Slave to win, I believe it's because they genuinely thought it the best of the nominees. You get some arseholes who try to talk down to others who didn't like it as much as them, but they're in the minority and usually the kind of people who are just arseholes in general.

Personally, I didn't care which of the two films won. I liked them both, I preferred Gravity, but I'm pleased both McQueen and Pitt have Oscars now. My favourite films rarely get nominated, let alone win, and my favourites of the films nominated stood no chance of a picture win. I'm just fascinated by the process that does lead to these kind of oddities.


I hear you - and obviously you know how unsuccessful my choices are in the Oscar Fixes!

See, what you say makes sense and you're exploring an argument and trying to explain what happened. But that's not what I read in the LA Times or the Dissolves tabloid grabbing of the single line - it was very deliberately single view against and I give very little credence to their attempt to shore up their argument with this silly claim.

I mean, for your piece on it, you don't need props.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 221
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