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RE: Utterly awful.

 
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RE: Utterly awful. - 12/3/2013 1:46:43 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 4984
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

I think there's a difference between opinion and quality. There do exist gold standards, however general, however basic. Mozart wrote music of higher quality than my 10 year old nephew does. That's not to say I value my 10 year old nephew's music any less. But his music is not as good as Mozart's. Fact.


That's a fairly weak and simplistic analogy that doesn't really apply here.



Accepted. But my point is that there ARE gold standards, no matter how simplistic the examples. So when people say there's no such thing as a 'bad film' or a 'good film', I'd say they were wrong.


But I don't think anyone here is saying that. We're talking about opinions. You admit that opinions vary (as Dalton once said) yet you seem to be claiming that if the film in question is perceived as either excellent or execrable then an opposing viewpoint is factually "wrong" because it doesn't adhere to a pre-conceived notion of quality. To paraphrase that's like saying "all men are created equal, yet some are more equal than others" but substituting the word men with opinions.

Sometimes I shake my head in bafflement if someone fails to see why I love a film (happens here all the time). But if I really dislike a film that has been lauded by others I just feel a bit disappointed and then move on. I don't end up questioning anyone's integrity, even if they are a professional film reviewer.


Dalton? From Roadhouse?

I like your last sentence. Gives me hope! Yes I suppose I have questioned someone's integrity as a film reviewer, as I would if a professional music critic rejected Abbey Road as meaningless, unaffecting crap. But the choice is still mine - I either listen to them or I don't. But what also bothers me, is that other people will listen to such opinions and hold them as important. It's happening with X-Factor, people's standards of what makes a good singer are being lowered every year, because of what the 'judges' say. Does that make sense?


Well, first of all plenty of people don't like the Beatles so that opinion, while uncommon or even controversial, is still perfectly valid.
Secondly, a five star review of Stoker is hardly comparable (in terms of being as unpopular a view as saying Abbey Road is rubbish) - it's been receiving strong reviews everywhere. Those writers raving about it are no more right or wrong than you are but it's rather arrogant to suggest they lack integrity just because they - and many others - like a film you happen to think is crap.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 12/3/2013 1:47:52 PM >


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(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 91
RE: Utterly awful. - 12/3/2013 8:54:50 PM   
jrewing1000


Posts: 486
Joined: 23/11/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

I think there's a difference between opinion and quality. There do exist gold standards, however general, however basic. Mozart wrote music of higher quality than my 10 year old nephew does. That's not to say I value my 10 year old nephew's music any less. But his music is not as good as Mozart's. Fact.


That's a fairly weak and simplistic analogy that doesn't really apply here.



Accepted. But my point is that there ARE gold standards, no matter how simplistic the examples. So when people say there's no such thing as a 'bad film' or a 'good film', I'd say they were wrong.


But I don't think anyone here is saying that. We're talking about opinions. You admit that opinions vary (as Dalton once said) yet you seem to be claiming that if the film in question is perceived as either excellent or execrable then an opposing viewpoint is factually "wrong" because it doesn't adhere to a pre-conceived notion of quality. To paraphrase that's like saying "all men are created equal, yet some are more equal than others" but substituting the word men with opinions.

Sometimes I shake my head in bafflement if someone fails to see why I love a film (happens here all the time). But if I really dislike a film that has been lauded by others I just feel a bit disappointed and then move on. I don't end up questioning anyone's integrity, even if they are a professional film reviewer.


Dalton? From Roadhouse?

I like your last sentence. Gives me hope! Yes I suppose I have questioned someone's integrity as a film reviewer, as I would if a professional music critic rejected Abbey Road as meaningless, unaffecting crap. But the choice is still mine - I either listen to them or I don't. But what also bothers me, is that other people will listen to such opinions and hold them as important. It's happening with X-Factor, people's standards of what makes a good singer are being lowered every year, because of what the 'judges' say. Does that make sense?


Well, first of all plenty of people don't like the Beatles so that opinion, while uncommon or even controversial, is still perfectly valid.
Secondly, a five star review of Stoker is hardly comparable (in terms of being as unpopular a view as saying Abbey Road is rubbish) - it's been receiving strong reviews everywhere. Those writers raving about it are no more right or wrong than you are but it's rather arrogant to suggest they lack integrity just because they - and many others - like a film you happen to think is crap.


Of course I'm using Abbey Road as a simplistic example to back up my point that there is such a thing as good and bad when it comes to art. How we come to define good and bad is another matter entirely, and the subject of debates throughout the ages.

Yes I agree that in the case of Stoker, it's not so simple. But the discussion here moved from specifics about Stoker, to the idea of good/bad art.

Roadhouse on the other hand, IS the greatest film ever made, at least the greatest film ever made about bouncers who can rip out someone's throat with their bare hands.

(in reply to horribleives)
Post #: 92
RE: Utterly awful. - 12/3/2013 9:21:08 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 3945
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElephantBoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElephantBoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

I haven't seen Stoker yet but I refuse to believe it's comparable to The Room.

Park Chan Wook's story-telling style might irk some, and that's understandable, but he's technically accomplished. Tommy Wiseau is a talentless chancer who made a really bad and boring film.

Whats the Room?

Don't go there.

Damn it I so want to now


You're tearing me apart ElephantBoy!

Type in 'the room tommy wiseau' on youtube, or obtain a copy of the film illegally.

Beware though, once you enter - there's no going back.

_____________________________

Qwerty's Top 10 of 2013 (so far)

1. Zero Dark Thirty
2. No
3. A Hijacking
4. Behind the Candelabra
5. In The Fog
6. Good Vibrations
7. McCullin
8. Beyond the Hills
9. The Place Beyond the Pines
10. Wreck-it Ralph

(in reply to ElephantBoy)
Post #: 93
Utterly awesome. - 20/3/2013 1:12:25 PM   
ahaig

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 26/9/2008
Not my favourite Park Chan-wook film but Stoker does measure up to his other work and that is impressive. Not sure why it was an 18 as it's not very graphic but I suppose the feeling of unease must have affected the bbfc chaps or something. Also - well reviewed :)

(in reply to Empire Admin)
Post #: 94
RE: Stoker - 16/4/2013 3:45:25 PM   
Axel Foley


Posts: 731
Joined: 15/10/2005
Stoker delivers thrills, chills and shocks in an inventive and stylish spin on coming of age dramas. Park Chan-Wookís English language debut tells the story of India Stoker who has recently lost her father and in coming to terms with it displays a side to her character that is glimpsed early on but rages forth later, as she becomes ever more intimate with her eccentric and Uncle Charlie. Mia Wasikowska is great as India, sweetly innocent, but with a look that could kill. It is Parkís direction that is star though: sequences have a dream like (or is it nightmarish quality), accentuated by pans and edits. He gives shoes, spiders or playing the piano an unsettling sense, but my favourite shot is of India flexing her arms and legs on her bed to the beat of a counter, looking not unlike a giant insect. A later scene gives it an even more sinister association and demonstrates the power of the storytelling: not a shot is wasted and seemingly small things can become ever more haunting.

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Post #: 95
RE: Stoker - 10/6/2013 6:28:34 PM   
bydabeachman


Posts: 81
Joined: 29/5/2013
From: USA
In my opinion this film was truly an art piece. The story was well revolved and dangerously chilling. It leaves you curious with the destination the characters will go with what they now have gone through. I though Mia did an incredibly beautiful job as a youthful, deviously sexy girl whom at times you feel guilty for looking at her. You know from the get go there is an uneasy feeling given and the atmosphere keeps you guessing and thinking something will pop out at you. Nicole Kidman was her same self, nothing too different about that, not saying she is bad, she is amazing, she just has been typecast as playing herself it seems like. Dermot's cameo was incredible, wish we has more of him. Overall it was a great film, the intro was my favorite part, so cinematically beautiful. Excited to check out his other films.

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Post #: 96
A lovely gloomy helter-skelter... - 11/7/2013 11:26:58 PM   
TheMightyBlackout


Posts: 199
Joined: 28/4/2012
From: Oxford, UK
Stoker hovers between arthouse and flat-out melancholia, and while it's not always an easy watch, it's consistently engaging. A bit like a serial killer's whimsical daydream. In a good way.

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Post #: 97
Spot on - 2/10/2013 1:30:14 PM   
Enzino

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 15/11/2010
Love the bit about Matthew Goode who "glowers handsomely as if he is simultaneously plotting abominable acts and taking part in history’s most sinister fashion shoot"!

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Post #: 98
RE: Spot on - 21/10/2013 1:11:47 PM   
Vitamin F

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: Norn Ireland, so it is

A review I read about this stated it's "...one of the most beautifully directed bad movies I've seen..." and this is definitely my review in a soundbite. Too little story for this amount of directorial effort.

While the journey is beautiful to look at, come the end credits there's a really underwhelming feeling of "is that it?" I was waiting for some additional depth, something that I wasn't aware of, but it never came. Try guessing where the story is going as you watch it and you'll probably be right, more or less. All the style was for nothing at the end of the day. Not something I'd rush to watch again.

(in reply to Enzino)
Post #: 99
RE: Stoker - 30/10/2013 11:40:22 AM   
CheshireMoon

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 14/8/2013
From: South Africa
I thought this film was outstanding! I completely underestimated it and to be honest I am not a fan of Kidman but I loved it! It took me a while afterwards to realize how amazing it was

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Post #: 100
RE: A lovely gloomy helter-skelter... - 30/10/2013 4:27:28 PM   
magnila_fan

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 29/10/2013
I donít know why people rave about this film. I mean itís not bad but apart from good style itís boring and predictable.

(in reply to TheMightyBlackout)
Post #: 101
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