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RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting

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RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 20/2/2013 3:18:19 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 151
Joined: 29/2/2012
Oh yeah, guilt/self pity would cause his tears in court, no doubt. Quite a few issues raised in court today - testosterone and needles found, some other conflicting evidence too - or so it was reported.

I find it interesting that prosecutors are going for pre-meditated murder, SA obviously have very different legal definations as pre-meditation in my mind means to have plotted and planned murder.

Just as an aside I get a bit uncomfortable seeing all the footage from inside the court, especially with cameras right up at the defendant - just not used to seeing that.

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Post #: 91
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 20/2/2013 8:40:40 PM   
elab49


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Even if he is innocent of this - there surely must be some serious questions asked about the testosterone and his athletics.

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Post #: 92
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 8:09:57 AM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 151
Joined: 29/2/2012
*possible testosterone* found in his room...............

The lead detective in the case is also being investigated for attempted murder apparently, don't really see the relevance to this case, but it obviously may have an impact on who is 'leading' the investigation. According to BBC news, the charges weren't being pursued, but as of yesterday, they are.......

This bail hearing does seem to go on, it's almost like a trial itself - they seem to bring out all possible evidence at this stage.

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Post #: 93
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 8:34:48 AM   
Hood_Man


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Ok, now I'm feeling a bit guilty about the puns.  I mean, it was a shock when the story first hit, but being evil I did immediately think...

Actually, nevermind, I'll behave.  I don't know what to think about this story really, the stories all seem different but the poor guy does seem genuinely horrified at what's happened.

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Post #: 94
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 9:01:02 AM   
elab49


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Aren't you already thinking something if you use the phrase 'poor guy' though?

No wonder that British chap didn't want to be taken back there with Prosecution/police as much of a mess as this lot seem to be.

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Post #: 95
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 9:07:22 AM   
Hood_Man


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Aren't you already thinking something if you use the phrase 'poor guy' though?

No wonder that British chap didn't want to be taken back there with Prosecution/police as much of a mess as this lot seem to be.

I meant in terms of what actually happened, as the stories regarding how it happened seem to be conflicted (at least from what I've tried to read the last few days on the BBC website anyway).

I probably should have made that clearer, which is becoming a theme of mine these past few days

[EDIT]

Why did I say murder?  I didn't mean to say murder.  WHat is wrong with me this morning?...

< Message edited by Hood_Man -- 21/2/2013 9:13:57 AM >

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Post #: 96
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 12:24:13 PM   
sharkboy


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Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
 There now appear to be some pretty shady goings-on with Detective Hilton Botha's reinstated charge of multiple cases of attempted murder.  The fcat that the charges were not declared to the court leaves some suspicions - did they hope to keep the story buried but panicked when Botha performed so badly under cross-examination?  Is there any link to the case at all or is it just an extraordinary case of coincidence that they decide to reinstate the charges after his evidence to the bail hearing?  Their forthcoming press statement promises to make interesting reading.

The police/prosecution behaviour so far has left a lot to be desired, not only has their incident room been leaking like a sieve, but in trying to turn public opinion against Pistorius they have perhaps done an OJ and villified him to the extent that the public will start to feel sorry for him again.

Oh well, could be worse - he could have been experiencing trial by jury!

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Post #: 97
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 12:31:13 PM   
homersimpson_esq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

Oh well, could be worse - he could have been experiencing trial by jury!


Hey, I like that operetta.

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Post #: 98
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 1:55:32 PM   
sharkboy


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From: Belfast
 Given the man's deft turn of phrase, I should have guessed that you'd be a fan of Gilbert's librettos (libretti?)   With regards to the aforementioned Detective Botha, perhaps some comment about the emotional state of a policeman's lot would be appropriate here?

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Post #: 99
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 2:06:46 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 19969
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From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

Given the man's deft turn of phrase, I should have guessed that you'd be a fan of Gilbert's librettos (libretti?)   With regards to the aforementioned Detective Botha, perhaps some comment about the emotional state of a policeman's lot would be appropriate here?




So long as the judge is no longer an impecunious party (and a good judge too), then we should be OK...

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Post #: 100
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 3:33:12 PM   
kumar


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I really want to give Pistorious the benefit of the doubt.

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Post #: 101
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 3:50:59 PM   
steffols


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 I wish I could but the holes in his story are too huge. I don't understand how if you have your girlfriend in the bed beside you, and you hear someone in the bathroom your automatic response isn't too look beside you and see if she is there before heading off to shoot whoever is in there.

< Message edited by steffols -- 21/2/2013 3:51:37 PM >

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Post #: 102
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 4:17:01 PM   
directorscut


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Even if he isn't guilty of murder he should be put into mental institute or something because someone whose first reaction to noises in a bathroom is to blindly fire gunshots into it is clearly not fit for society.

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Post #: 103
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 4:17:09 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 8814
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steffols

I wish I could but the holes in his story are too huge. I don't understand how if you have your girlfriend in the bed beside you, and you hear someone in the bathroom your automatic response isn't too look beside you and see if she is there before heading off to shoot whoever is in there.


Definitely this. I'll often wake in the night, there's a noise in the bathroom. Then a few moments later the toilet flushes and my wife's back in bed (probably washing her hands in the meantime, I think she's hygenic like that).

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Post #: 104
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 4:41:59 PM   
jonson


Posts: 8110
Joined: 30/9/2005
I'm guessing if they did have a row, and she ran to the bathroom (to get away from him) automatically she would have locked the bathroom door, so Pastorious would have had to kick the door down to get her out.
If indeed she had been having a tiddle in the middle of the night, like he said, the bathroom door possibly would have been unlocked (I'm only going on what I do, I don't lock the bathroom door unless I'm having one off the wrist)
Just getting a bit NCIS, I'm sure they would have checked these things out.

Either way, I think this is already panning out like an OJ soap opera farce. He'll get let off and eventually end up as South Africa's president.

< Message edited by jonson -- 21/2/2013 4:42:32 PM >

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Post #: 105
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 5:10:43 PM   
steffols


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From: Jungleland
 When the story broke, I assumed she had come into the house late and he was in bed, woke up, heard a noise confused as he was the only person in and didn't think. But since it was reported that she was in the house with him at the time, nah, I'm sorry, his story is bullshit. I predict a lot more to come out of this.

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Post #: 106
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 6:29:10 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5950
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steffols

When the story broke, I assumed she had come into the house late and he was in bed, woke up, heard a noise confused as he was the only person in and didn't think. But since it was reported that she was in the house with him at the time, nah, I'm sorry, his story is bullshit. I predict a lot more to come out of this.


Or, we could, y'now, wait for the actual trial rather than the bail hearing?

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Post #: 107
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 6:32:08 PM   
steffols


Posts: 7639
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From: Jungleland
 Will his story magically change?

Ok, that was a strong statement. I can't see how this is not murder though or, as DC says above, a nutter who was a bit trigger happy.

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Post #: 108
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 6:37:04 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


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From: Dublin
 Well there are already elements to his story that the prosecution admit back up his account. I don't think this is cut and dry at all. I believe he killed his girlfriend however the charge is Premeditated Murder which, based on the farce that has been the bail hearing so far may be a stretch to prove.

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Post #: 109
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 6:52:40 PM   
lbiu


Posts: 2779
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From: Just 3 doors away from Heaven
 FACT: He killed her

Everything else is just messy. I don't think we have even heard the full story.
I guess the only reason I am giving him benefit of the doubt is because if he wanted to kill her he could have done it in a far less stupid fashion which would have at least let him get a easier ride.
Also, WHY? Why kill her? They were hardly dating that long? He does not seem to hold any deep dark secret that she might have exposed and he had way too much to lose.

Nothing the prosecution has said makes it seem like it was premeditated just makes it seem like random unfortunate events. Manslaughter would have made more sense.

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Post #: 110
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 8:17:11 PM   
Ghidorah

 

Posts: 2660
Joined: 6/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: steffols

When the story broke, I assumed she had come into the house late and he was in bed, woke up, heard a noise confused as he was the only person in and didn't think. But since it was reported that she was in the house with him at the time, nah, I'm sorry, his story is bullshit. I predict a lot more to come out of this.



I have to agree.

* Why did she go into the bathroom and locked the door three in the morning?
* Why did Oscar fire his gun into the bathroom and at the sametime didn't know where his girl friend was?
* Where is the gun?
* Where is the bathroom?
* How big is the bathroom?


Good housing in South Africa is very affordable and well paid South Africans can afford a manasion. For example a few years ago it cost £35k to buy a house by the beach in the Cape.

Oscar's said the bathroom door was locked. If the bathroom was small, his girlfriend would be close proximentry to the door. She would of heard Oscar trying to open the door and she would of responded. However they live in a mansion and this bathroom is upstairs. This bathroom would be far larger than your average bathroom and he shot her at least three times?
I think what could of happened is Oscar lost his temper with Reeva. Reeva ran into the bathroom and locked herself in and wouldn't open the door. Oscar got his gun and fired warning shots into the door to scare her. However Oscar was unaware Reeva was standing somewhere behind the door.

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Post #: 111
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 21/2/2013 11:38:33 PM   
steffols


Posts: 7639
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland
 You can see a plan of the bedroom and en-suite bathroom here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21516664



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Post #: 112
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 7:27:20 AM   
Cloud Cuckoo


Posts: 393
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From: Mind your own
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Even if he is innocent of this - there surely must be some serious questions asked about the testosterone and his athletics.


According to a news report I saw earlier, the 'testosterone' turned out to be perfectly legal herbal medication. This in itself shows assumptions and snap judgements have been made.

That said, it was also reported that forensics showed the shots fired travelled through the bathroom door on a downwards trajectory, almost certainly meaning that Pistorius lied to the police about being "on his stumps" and had in fact put on his prosthetics.

Obviously this doesn't automatically mean he's guilty, and we must leave it to his jury to try him, but forensic evidence that he has lied to the police is going to do him no favours at all - and it begs the question 'why?'

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Post #: 113
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 9:58:03 AM   
elab49


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The stumps thing also came up though - the problem seems to be that the forensics apparently say that but then the cop (now sacked) later said there was nothing to show Pistorius' story was false. Which is just weird as one of those does contradict the other.

I'm still intrigued by the needles - what herbal medicines require needles? Even apart from this that sounds a bit odd.

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Post #: 114
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 9:59:22 AM   
Rebenectomy


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From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2
quote:

ORIGINAL: lbiu

Also, WHY? Why kill her? They were hardly dating that long? He does not seem to hold any deep dark secret that she might have exposed and he had way too much to lose.

Nothing the prosecution has said makes it seem like it was premeditated just makes it seem like random unfortunate events. Manslaughter would have made more sense.


You seem to be under the impression that murder is only premeditated if there is some long standing motive and plan to carry it out. This is actually rarely the case, and I'd reckon even less so in cases of spousal/partner murder. If it is proven that Pistorius was violent and abusive in this relationship and perhaps even in previous ones, then the violence itself, coupled with the use of a weapon, can be argued as a form of premeditation. It doesn't have to be the case that she was holding something over him, or that he was resentful of something like suspected infidelity (or whatever CSI/Midsommer Murders type motive you can think of), it may just be the case that they were arguing, he was violent and produced a weapon. She locked herself in the bathroom to hide and he fired. He didn't have to be planning this for weeks for this scenario to be classed as per-meditated, but a jury will decide if his behaviour was in keeping with character and indicative of a pattern.

And saying he had too much to loose is a bit daft, I mean its not like anyone with any level of wealth, power, reputation etc has never done anything to put that in jeopardy. In fact, I'd wager that psychologically, its the aforementioned things that probably help people think they can get away with it.

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Post #: 115
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 10:35:29 AM   
lbiu


Posts: 2779
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just 3 doors away from Heaven
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy


quote:

ORIGINAL: lbiu

Also, WHY? Why kill her? They were hardly dating that long? He does not seem to hold any deep dark secret that she might have exposed and he had way too much to lose.

Nothing the prosecution has said makes it seem like it was premeditated just makes it seem like random unfortunate events. Manslaughter would have made more sense.


You seem to be under the impression that murder is only premeditated if there is some long standing motive and plan to carry it out. This is actually rarely the case, and I'd reckon even less so in cases of spousal/partner murder. If it is proven that Pistorius was violent and abusive in this relationship and perhaps even in previous ones, then the violence itself, coupled with the use of a weapon, can be argued as a form of premeditation. It doesn't have to be the case that she was holding something over him, or that he was resentful of something like suspected infidelity (or whatever CSI/Midsommer Murders type motive you can think of), it may just be the case that they were arguing, he was violent and produced a weapon. She locked herself in the bathroom to hide and he fired. He didn't have to be planning this for weeks for this scenario to be classed as per-meditated, but a jury will decide if his behaviour was in keeping with character and indicative of a pattern.

And saying he had too much to loose is a bit daft, I mean its not like anyone with any level of wealth, power, reputation etc has never done anything to put that in jeopardy. In fact, I'd wager that psychologically, its the aforementioned things that probably help people think they can get away with it.


Playing devil's advocate. The fact is neither of us know. Everything you wrote is pure speculation so hardly even refutes my point. The whole trail/bail hearing has been messy and still has not given a clear picture into what actually happened.

Also, has him being abusive even been brought up?

< Message edited by lbiu -- 22/2/2013 10:36:43 AM >

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Post #: 116
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 10:45:30 AM   
elab49


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In initial reports, yes.

I think Reb was just saying that pre-meditation is a bit more complex than was being suggested though and that's not speculation, simply explaining why it might be the charge.

I wonder if people might be more sympathetic to-Pistorius if they hadn't seen that very angry hissy fit post loss at the Olympics.

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Post #: 117
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 10:54:53 AM   
Rebenectomy


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From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2
quote:

Everything you wrote is pure speculation so hardly even refutes my point.]


Not really, while anyone can only speculate on the specifics of this case, (that's why I put a big IF there), the point about per-mediation still stands for this and countless other cases, that being that it's not necessarily about length of time or the motive having to be something as thought out as a 'deep dark secret that she might have exposed.'

As for accusations of a violent abusive behaviour, there have been reports that police had been to the house before on domestic issues, and Pistorius himself spend a night in jail in 2009 for an alleged assault on a 19 year old woman at a party at his home, though I will stress that in this case the charges were eventually dropped. These kind of things will no doubt be looked into further at the trial and if the burglar defence is dismissed, a history of domestic violence will probably form the basis of a decision as to whether this was manslaughter, or per-mediated murder.

< Message edited by Rebenectomy -- 22/2/2013 10:55:18 AM >

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Post #: 118
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 11:09:46 AM   
lbiu


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From: Just 3 doors away from Heaven
 Yes but in no way have I put across that it needs months planning to be premeditated. I just stated that the prosecution have failed at putting a clear strong case into this being premeditated. I can see him getting a lesser charge with the way things are going.

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Post #: 119
RE: Oscar Pistorius Arrested over shooting - 22/2/2013 11:19:39 AM   
Rebenectomy


Posts: 5550
Joined: 20/1/2008
From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2
quote:

ORIGINAL: lbiu


Also, WHY? Why kill her? They were hardly dating that long? He does not seem to hold any deep dark secret that she might have exposed and he had way too much to lose.




I assumed that this was indicative of an assumption that there needed to be time involved in the motive and planning, if it wasn't then I apologise.

But lets look at it another way. Two drug dealers are arguing over something, they get into a fight and one re-treats to get a weapon and kills the other one. There is still a murder charge in there, despite the fact that the whole altercation could have taken place over something as little as twenty minutes and the motive might be something incredibly futile, such as 'he/she disrespect me'. Apply similar logic to that of a spouse/partner killing and you still have a case (though not necessarily a conviction for murder), depending on the effectiveness of the prosecution.

Also apologies for my repeated misspelling of premeditation. I'm on my phone and the bastard keeps auto correcting it to something else.

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