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RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 8:05:25 PM

Professor Moriarty

Posts: 8597
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca

(in reply to Deviation)

Post #: 91

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 8:08:15 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

You can do anything to get noticed though. Send a publisher a book wrapped in plastic baked in a cake, turning up dressed as a wizard, turning up yelling "I love Evil Dead more than Lord of the Rings" etc.

So, that's where I've been going wrong. Although what you've suggested is more likely to get a chap arrested. It's not like X-Factor, where one just "turns up" with a book and waves it under some sarcastic bastard's nose. Little more formal than that.

quote:

I'm prepared to concede that not everyone shares my view on this, but not that Frank hasn't earned his position of influence.

In the world of sport and football, sure, but you seem to be saying that someone like Lampard deserves a shot at publishing more than someone like me simply because he's been so successfull in an unrelated field, despite the fact that I've been writing and submitting for years and he bloody hasn't. Not excatly a level playing-field there. Bloody dispiriting. And I am definitely a better writer than him. He's definitely a better footballer than me, but I'm not jockying for a place on the Chelsea Squad. What he can do here, though, is waltz into an editor's office without probably having written a damn word yet.

I'm entering a writing competition next week. All I have is the quality of the writing to speak for me. Not celebrity. Now say one of the other participants was a professional footballer "trying his hand". Should he be allowed to enter? Absolutely, because it's for unpublished writers. But should his previous success as a footballer allow him leverage? Absolutely not.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 20/2/2013 8:09:59 PM >

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Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 92

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 8:13:53 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11283
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

You can do anything to get noticed though. Send a publisher a book wrapped in plastic baked in a cake, turning up dressed as a wizard, turning up yelling "I love Evil Dead more than Lord of the Rings" etc.

So, that's where I've been going wrong. Although what you've suggested is more likely to get a chap arrested. It's not like X-Factor, where one just "turns up" with a book and waves it under some sarcastic bastard's nose. Little more formal than that.

quote:

I'm prepared to concede that not everyone shares my view on this, but not that Frank hasn't earned his position of influence.

In the world of sport and football, sure, but you seem to be saying that someone like Lampard deserves a shot at publishing more than someone like me simply because he's been so successfull in an unrelated field, despite the fact that I've been writing and submitting for years and he bloody hasn't. Not excatly a level playing-field there. Bloody dispiriting. And I am definitely a better writer than him. He's definitely a better footballer than me, but I'm not jockying for a place on the Chelsea Squad. What he can do here, though, is waltz into an editor's office without probably having written a damn word yet.

I'm entering a writing competition next week. All I have is the quality of the writing to speak for me. Not celebrity. Now say one of the other participants was a professional footballer "trying his hand". Should he be allowed to enter? Absolutely, because it's for unpublished writers. But should his previous success as a footballer allow him leverage? Absolutely not.

He's no more deserving than other people who are willing to get themselves noticed.

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

[EDIT]

In the case of a competition, are the judges required to view all entries? If they are then it's not really the same thing as you wouldn't need to stand out, you're guaranteed to get seen.

< Message edited by Hood_Man -- 20/2/2013 8:21:08 PM >

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 93

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 8:46:39 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

He's no more deserving than other people who are willing to get themselves noticed.

WHAT!!! Get himself noticed? He's a fuckign celebrity, he's already noticed!! How can I compete with celebrity!! All I have is the writing and my own persistence. Do you actually know anything about the submission process, Hoody? There's only so much a non-celebrity like myself can do to get "noticed". He's already "noticed" because of his football career. He didn't become a professional footballer because he wanted to eventually be a writer. I love ya, Hoody, but that is bullshit.

quote:

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

Mate, that's fairly insulting. You're suggesting that I haven't made enough of an effort, as if years of fucking writing and submitting is not evidence of working hard enough to try and get my foot in the door. Like I said there's only so much I can do. You're suggesting that simply by being famous Lampard has made more of an "effort" despite writing not being his actual profession. I am inferior to Lampard simply because I can't make the same impression - in other words, I'm not as famous - and therefore less deserving of getting published. What an awful thing to say. My writing and my persistence and my faith in myself is clearly not enough. I am not famous, so I have not made enough of an effort. I am not famous, so I have failed to make an impression, despite my hope that the quality of the writing would be my 'hook'. Sure, I know that you need to offer something exciting, original, saleable, but that should be reflected in the product, in the writing itself. If your 'hook' is just being famous, I don't understand how that makes you more deserving.

Jesus god-bastard fucking cunt christ, this is depressing.

quote:

In the case of a competition, are the judges required to view all entries? If they are then it's not really the same thing as you wouldn't need to stand out, you're guaranteed to get seen.

All entries are accompanied by a synopsis. The entries are then whittled down to about ten entries that are then read in full and a winner determined. My point was that all that need be judged, if it were a fair competition, was the quality of the writing. Whether they were reading all the entries or not that is the point. All that matters is that you've been unpublished. But how famous or non-famous the particpants are should not rightly factor in any decision.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 20/2/2013 8:53:37 PM >

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 94

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 9:01:54 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11283
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

He's no more deserving than other people who are willing to get themselves noticed.

WHAT!!! Get himself noticed? He's a fuckign celebrity, he's already noticed!! How can I compete with celebrity!! All I have is the writing and my own persistence. Do you actually know anything about the submission process, Hoody? There's only so much a non-celebrity like myself can do to get "noticed". He's already "noticed" because of his football career. He didn't become a professional footballer because he wanted to eventually be a writer. I love ya, Hoody, but that is bullshit.

You need to see it in context. Noticed in terms of standing out from other people submitting novels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

Mate, that's fairly insulting. You're suggesting that I haven't made enough of an effort, as if years of fucking writing and submitting is not evidence of working hard enough to try and get my foot in the door. Like I said there's only so much I can do. You're suggesting that simply by being famous Lampard has made more of an "effort" despite writing not being his actual profession. I am inferior to Lampard simply because I can't make the same impression - in other words, I'm not as famous - and therefore less deserving of getting published. What an awful thing to say. My writing and my persistence and my faith in myself is clearly not enough. I am not famous, so I have not made enough of an effort. I am not famous, so I have failed to make an impression, despite my hope that the quality of the writing would be my 'hook'.

Jesus god-bastard fucking cunt christ.

He isn't simply famous though, he's famous because of what he does and for the effort he put into getting there. That's what made him the star he is.
I don't know why you're not having more success as a writer, but if someone's work is good enough to be successful but nobody's giving it a chance then they're only robbing themselves if they don't change tactics.
I don't know why you're not having more success so I'm not going to judge, and I'm sorry I've upset you, but Frank has an opportunity now that's come as a result of all the success he's earned over the years. That's what I'm saying. Quite frankly I'm running out of ways to say this, and I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

In the case of a competition, are the judges required to view all entries? If they are then it's not really the same thing as you wouldn't need to stand out, you're guaranteed to get seen.

All entries are accompanied by a synopsis. The entries are then whittled down to about ten entries that are then read in full and a winner determined. My point was that all that need be judged, if it were a fair competition, was the quality of the writing. Whether they were reading all the entries or not that is the point. All that matters is that you've been unpublished. But how famous or non-famous the particpants are should not rightly factor in any decision.

I agree with this example that being famous shouldn't matter because in this example it doesn't appear to matter. It sounds like a body of work that's being judged entirely on its quality and its presentation, where's the celebrity element?

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 95

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 9:04:57 PM

Rinc

Posts: 12518
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

And I am definitely a better writer than him.

To be fair you don't actually know that. Lampard might be a very good writer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

Knowing several guys who work on sites and having helped my dad out on a couple, the guy in the suit would be laughed out of town.

_____________________________

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Post #: 96

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 10:00:00 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

You need to see it in context. Noticed in terms of standing out from other people submitting novels.

Yes, but he's only standing out because he's famous, not necessarily because he's better at writing. Like I said I can write and write and submit until I'm blue in the face but I can't compete with the cache of celebrity in terms of getting "noticed".

quote:

He isn't simply famous though, he's famous because of what he does and for the effort he put into getting there. That's what made him the star he is.

And that's fair enough. But he is getting the publishing deal because he's famous, not because he's renowned for his writing skills. And while he's not the first celebrity to coast in on a publishing deal (and he won't be the last) there is no denying that "being famous" for whatever reason will get you through doors that are closed to the likes of me. And if his writing isn't up to scratch they'll just get a ghost-writer in.

quote:

I don't know why you're not having more success as a writer, but if someone's work is good enough to be successful but nobody's giving it a chance then they're only robbing themselves if they don't change tactics.

Well, like I said there's only so much I can do, and because I'm not famous in any respect like Frank it's going to be a lot harder for me to get my voice heard. If he can write well then fine, good luck to him, but it's still frustrating from my point of view, and many, many others who are in the same situation. We don't have fame. All we have is perseverance and patience, and that gets severely tested when others walk into publishing with little effort. And by little effort I mean little effort in the field of writing. I'm sure Frank's worked hard at his main career, obviously, but in terms of writing he's put no ground work in. He hasn't had to do the grunt work. I can't just walk into a footballing career, even if I was famous as well.

And I'm confused by what you mean when you say "change tactics". Should I now pursue another career in the hopes that my celebrity will open future doors in publishing? There's a very specific process that has to be followed when submitting material to a publisher or a literary agent. It's a very formal business, pretty rigid, with little flexibility. Being famous, for whatever reason, is a significant advantage. What more do you really imagine I can do to compete with celebrities who already have their feet in several doors?

quote:

I don't know why you're not having more success so I'm not going to judge,

I don't know, either. All I can do is keep trying. But I can't do it like Frankie's done it. Maybe I'm crap. Let's ask Toby.

quote:

and I'm sorry I've upset you, but Frank has an opportunity now that's come as a result of all the success he's earned over the years. That's what I'm saying. Quite frankly I'm running out of ways to say this, and I really don't understand the hostility I'm getting

Well, I didn't mean to sound hostile. I was more just flabbergasted at your building site job anaolgy. There's me and Frankie, vying for the job as writer. He's famous, I'm not. He's more deserving of the job because as a celebrity he's apparently made more effort, something against which I can't compete because I'm not a celebrity. It doesn't matter that I've worked hard at writing all my life, because I'm not famous I clearly can't be considered a 'go-getter'. Despite the fact his fame was garnered from the pursuit of a different occupation. That riled me somewhat, because there's a weird snobbery there. And that's weird because that's exactly what people are accusing Frankie's critics here of.

quote:

I agree with this example that being famous shouldn't matter because in this example it doesn't appear to matter. It sounds like a body of work that's being judged entirely on its quality and its presentation, where's the celebrity element?

Well, I was just trying to make the point that all writers who are trying to get published should be judged on the quality of their writing and their ideas and not their celebrity. And then I foolishly wanted this to be reflected in the wider world.

The writers I admire have worked from the ground up. People like King, Herbert, Barker, the guys I read, who started with nothing but worked their fucking arses off. They got noticed because of their talent, not because of the immediate gimmickry of some perceived celebrity or notoriety. Herbert was actually an ad-executive before he got published. King was an English teacher. Barker was a broke play-wright. And it took them years, and in King's case, through poverty, before their persistence paid off. They didn't ride in on fame. Those guys are my inspiration, because they didn't give up. And they didn't do it any differently to what I'm doing. Even Rowling went through shit, and I'm not a fan of her work, but she is an inspiration. Frankie's a great footballer, but compared to the writers I admire he's just a chancer whose previous celebrity did the work for him. And that's not very inspiring.

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 97

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 10:02:03 PM

superdan

Posts: 7239
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

This thread is funny. I wouldn't have thought the completely unremarkable occurrence of a celebrity trying their hand at something outside their established field would cause such a fuss.

You really can't predict these things

It just seems weird given it's hardly the first time this sort of thing has happened. Tosscheeks wouldn't even be the first England player to do it ffs, Theo 'TJ' Walcott was years ahead of the game:

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 98

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 10:10:12 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

And I am definitely a better writer than him.

To be fair you don't actually know that. Lampard might be a very good writer.

For the purposes of my own sanity and self-asteem it just helps for me to assume that I am. And as you can tell it works and I am a marvel of cerebral equilibrium.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

Knowing several guys who work on sites and having helped my dad out on a couple, the guy in the suit would be laughed out of town.

But the suit represents fame, which implies the guy's made more of an effort in life and is therefore more deserving of the job.

Right....

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 20/2/2013 10:38:24 PM >

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Rinc)

Post #: 99

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 10:12:10 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11283
Joined: 30/9/2005

When I say change of tactics I just mean a different way of getting people to notice your writing. You asked me earlier if I knew the process for submitting work to publishers, and my answer is I know nothing about the process of submitting work to publishers. I understand these firms have processes, but if the process doesn't seem to work then it's worth trying something else.

Kind of like my turning up in a wizard costume idea earlier, even if it does get you arrested just imagine the publicity

...if Frank's children's books turn out to be shit after all this I'll be livid

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 100

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 10:22:29 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Kind of like my turning up in a wizard costume idea earlier, even if it does get you arrested just imagine the publicity

I'm seriously thinking of just choosing a publisher and standing outside their offices while I read/shout my selected novel out at them. They call the police, but the escapade is captured on camera and posted on Youtube. Various other publishers admire this approach.

quote:

...if Frank's children's books turn out to be shit after all this I'll be livid

They'll probably be perfectly okay.

Aaaaaand relax....

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 20/2/2013 10:32:36 PM >

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 101

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 20/2/2013 11:25:14 PM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Jesus god-bastard fucking cunt christ, this is depressing.

Agreed. And judging by that sentence, I can safely say I would much rather read your work than Frank Lampard's.

The suggestions that baking a book into a cake or dressing up as a wizard should somehow earn you a publishing deal are depressing in the extreme. Books should be published on their merit, not because their author happens to be the most imaginative attention-seeking self-publicist.

I'm sure George Orwell got noticed without wandering around naked under a sandwich board listing his ideas. And I doubt Anthony Burgess had to dress as a droog and batter a tramp to capture a publisher's attention. Back when ability was paramount.

It's a sad literary world we have when celebrities and other bumptious self-promoters are rewarded over the humble, tireless sloggers. The art world has gone exactly the same way; skill and God-given talent is passed over in favour of people who make rudimentary sculptures of the apostles out of their own excrement, or dump some gravel in a gallery and give it a pretentious 'conceptual' title like 'Jupiter's Armpit'. Talent is no longer what is most prized, and that is a damn shame.

Anyway, DC - apparently Richard & Judy are the best route to getting published these days, so you could always break into their house and leave a copy of your manuscript in the middle of their bed next to a freshly laid turd. Yes, it will get you arrested, but it will get you noticed too, and that's what matters, right?

< Message edited by Cloud Cuckoo -- 21/2/2013 1:26:05 AM >

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 102

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 12:11:22 AM

superdan

Posts: 7239
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo

Anyway, DC - apparently Richard & Judy are the best route to getting published these days, so you could always break into their house and leave a copy of your manuscript in the middle of their bed next to a freshly laid turd. Yes, it will get you arrested, but it will get you noticed too, and that's what matters, right?

Oh God, that would be fantastic. I can just imagine it:

Phillip Schofield: Returning to the This Morning studio for the first time in over 3 years in order to tell us about their horrific ordeal at the hands of a crazed writer, Richard and Judy.
Richard Madeley: Thanks Phillip, it's a pleasure to be back.
Judy Finnegan:....er...um, er.. t-thanks.
PS: So tell us in your own words what happened.
JF: W-well, what happened was-
RM: Oh God, let me tell you Phillip, it was awful, just so, so frightening. I mean, I wasn't that frightened obviously, I was more frightened for Judy. The poor dear was so terrified she stopped shaking like a leaf. I mean you were really scared weren't you?
JF: Er, yes, well-
RM: I mean, you even urinated right there in the bed when we saw the stranger squatting between us, didn't you?
JF: Um, Richard, I d-don't think peop-
RM: I mean there we were, in bed trying to get some sleep. Well, Judy was trying to get some sleep, I was combing my hair, and this guy charges into the room, drops a manuscript on the bed, screams something about the unfairness of it all and how this was his last resort and then, would you believe it, drops something else - I won't say what but it's brown and rhymes with 'pit' - right there by Judy's glasses. Some of it even went on them a bit! I mean how disrespectful is that?
JF: Please, Richar-
RM: Anyway the police arrived and we had to go to the police station and give evidence, didn't we Judy?
JF: Yes we-
RM: Including handing over your poo-covered glasses as well didn't we Judy? Imagine that! Poor dear was mortified at the thought of people finding out but I told her people don't care about stuff like that, didn't I Judy?
JF: Y-yes, but Richa-
RM: I was talking, Judy. Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, well I read the manuscript to Judy in the police station while she was having an extreme diarrhea attack from the shock of it all and you know what? It was pretty good, wasn't it Judy?
JF: Yes dear...
RM: Don't interrupt. I've told you a thousand times not to interrupt.
PS: Well, thanks for coming in, and I'm glad to see you both remain so unaffected by the experience. Up next, a woman who got pregnant off the family dog, and Holly will be having her palm read by a transsexual Jamaican gypsy. See you after the break.

*book sells 50 million copies in first month*

(in reply to Cloud Cuckoo)

Post #: 103

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 12:44:53 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

You've got a gift, man. You should give writing a crack (pun not intended) yourself, but remember you'll have to pull a similar stunt to compete with the likes of Greenfingers: The Untold Love Story of Keith Harris and Orville.

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to superdan)

Post #: 104

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 6:35:52 AM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11283
Joined: 30/9/2005

Cuckoo, those were examples I thought of straight off the top of my head, not instructions

Also, pointing out that it should be the work that gets people noticed, is it coming across that I disagree with this or something? Is that where the arguments are coming from? I'm beginning to doubt myself now that what I'm thinking in my head is being lost in translation on its way to my keyboard, because I think I'm saying that if the normal channels don't work then try something different.

Is that not what I appear to be saying? I don't know how anyone could disagree with that otherwise. You could write the greatest novel ever but if nobody reads it then it'll go nowhere.

(in reply to Cloud Cuckoo)

Post #: 105

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 7:15:33 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Cuckoo, those were examples I thought of straight off the top of my head, not instructions

Yes, I gathered; as were my ideas of walking around naked with a sandwich board or acting out more extreme sections of your plot.

quote:

Also, pointing out that it should be the work that gets people noticed, is it coming across that I disagree with this or something? Is that where the arguments are coming from? I'm beginning to doubt myself now that what I'm thinking in my head is being lost in translation on its way to my keyboard, because I think I'm saying that if the normal channels don't work then try something different.

Is that not what I appear to be saying? I don't know how anyone could disagree with that otherwise. You could write the greatest novel ever but if nobody reads it then it'll go nowhere.

Your point may have got lost or misinterpreted amidst the turbulence of this thread, yes. I've reiterated myself at least three times but people still seem to think I despise all footballers and consider Frank Lampard no brighter than a monkey who flings shit at itself!

Yes, you are quite right that a manuscript needs to be read to be appreciated, and there is wisdom in trying something different to get noticed. I think what saddens me and others is that it is necessary at all. Publishers should ideally have people reading all the material they are sent, people whose sole job is to sift through submitted work and unearth the gems. That this clearly doesn't happen any more is what is so frustrating and depressing.

People like Lampard never have to try ordinary or even extraordinary channels; they are shunted to the front of the queue because they are already known. They aren't any better, they are just more famous. They are favoured for who they are; it's in essence no different to a member of the nobility receiving preferential treatment over a prole, and it sticks in the craw for the same reasons.

I hope that makes sense; I'm starting to think I'm speaking in Greek myself...

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 106

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 7:49:10 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Is that not what I appear to be saying? I don't know how anyone could disagree with that otherwise. You could write the greatest novel ever but if nobody reads it then it'll go nowhere.

Of course, yes, but getting people like editors or agents to read the book (or even one page) is where the struggle lies. And it's very hard to compete with a celebrity in that regard. I've read thousands of articles about selling oneself when it comes to contacting agents and publishers. Trying to be funny and adventurous is aparently something they abhor and is more likely to get one's book sample shoved in the shredder. It's the idea that counts. And many agents and publishers receive hundreds of submissions a week. Most of it ends up in the bin, or on the dreaded "slush/sludge pile", which is a never-ending mountain of correspondence that'll never get read, mostly because it's shite, mostly because the editor or agent just hasn't got the time to get through it all. Trouble is many agents won't look at your stuff unless you've been published in some regard before...but then many publishers won't consider you unless you have an agent. If you're a celebrity you get to cut through all the bullshit which is a major advantage. For me, writing is the easy part. Getting it read is nowhere near as easy as some people seem to think.

Once I had calmed down last night I remembered that the last novel I wrote was a drama/mystery revolving around a young man's elaborate last-ditch attempts to get published, and how it all went tragically wrong.

I've actually got a couple of books up on Jottify.com. If I had the balls I'd provide a link.

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 107

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 7:59:26 AM

jonson

Posts: 8073
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

I've actually got a couple of books up on Jottify.com. If I had the balls I'd provide a link.

There's the number one difference between you and Lampard. He's got balls.
Seriously, provide a link. If I like it, I'll pass it on to a friend who has had 3 books published and knows more about the industry than I do.

I'm afraid the old adage of "it's not what you know it's who you know" is true in just about every industry, whether it be writing or working on a building site (and to comment on the above post about the guy wearing a suit - he wouldn't get laughed off site at all. First impressions count - if CV's were identical, the one who made more of an effort would get the job)
I bet there were hundreds of writers around when George Orwell was being published, kicking themselves, holding that uknown brilliant novel in their hands while he got all the plaudits. That's life. That's the talented sax player on the underground who can't get a gig because Cowell has swampled an industry with shit.

I'd lvoe to have time to read through

_____________________________

I've got all the Barbie ones!!!

Yeah but you're old. Really old. Old. Old. Old. Old.

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Post #: 108

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 8:24:14 AM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11283
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Cuckoo, those were examples I thought of straight off the top of my head, not instructions

Yes, I gathered; as were my ideas of walking around naked with a sandwich board or acting out more extreme sections of your plot.

You dress up as Spongebob, I'll dress up as Patrick, and we'll both stand outside a publishing office reciting lines from DC's latest novel

(in reply to jonson)

Post #: 109

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 9:54:04 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

I bet there were hundreds of writers around when George Orwell was being published, kicking themselves, holding that uknown brilliant novel in their hands while he got all the plaudits. That's life.

No doubt, but at least Orwell was a visionary genius rather than a pneumatic glamour model not even penning her own prose. I'm sure he was respected by his less successful peers and seen as an inspiration, albeit through green eyes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

I've actually got a couple of books up on Jottify.com. If I had the balls I'd provide a link.

You should! Look, you've sent your work to agents and publishers and faced rejection, what's showing it to a few faceless forumites compared to that? Who knows, maybe it will lead to that break you need. All publicity is good publicity; the more people who see your work, the more likely something will come of it - think word of mouth, etc. Explore all the avenues you can!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

You dress up as Spongebob, I'll dress up as Patrick, and we'll both stand outside a publishing office reciting lines from DC's latest novel

Given DC strikes as more of a horror writer, maybe you should be the Exorcist and I'll be Regan, complete with water pistol full of pea soup...

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 110

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 11:43:26 AM

horribleives

Posts: 4183
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

And I am definitely a better writer than him.

To be fair you don't actually know that. Lampard might be a very good writer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Also I'd say it's more like two guys turning up for a job interview for a building site, one person wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and the other a 3 piece suit. Both might be equally competent, but the second guy made more of an effort to make an impression.

Knowing several guys who work on sites and having helped my dad out on a couple, the guy in the suit would be laughed out of town.

Ha, beat me to it (I was gonna say he'd probably get told to fuck right off, shove his three piece up his arse and come back when he knows his way around a shovel).

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www.hollywoodunbound.co.uk - some nonsense about alien film directors and musclebound man-children.

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Post #: 111

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 12:08:49 PM

Professor Moriarty

Posts: 8597
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca

Am I the only one who hopes there is some weird form of exchange program going on and Martin Amis turns up in goal for Fulham next season.

(in reply to horribleives)

Post #: 112

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 21/2/2013 12:32:12 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty

Am I the only one who hopes there is some weird form of exchange program going on and Martin Amis turns up in goal for Fulham next season.

Tbh, he'd sure to do a better job being that then a writer, even if he just stands around. He's the Balotelli of writers, and not the good player Balotelli either, the shit one in the Italy vs. Spain Euro 2012 final.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Professor Moriarty)

Post #: 113

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 4:03:07 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

Well it looks like Lamps has changed his mind about the subject and characters of his new book.

ARTICLE IS HERE

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to Deviation)

Post #: 114

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 7:34:38 AM

Juice Terry

Posts: 29
Joined: 19/1/2013
From: Fae the juice lorries, ken?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo

It's a sad literary world we have when celebrities and other bumptious self-promoters are rewarded over the humble, tireless sloggers. The art world has gone exactly the same way; skill and God-given talent is passed over in favour of people who make rudimentary sculptures of the apostles out of their own excrement, or dump some gravel in a gallery and give it a pretentious 'conceptual' title like 'Jupiter's Armpit'. Talent is no longer what is most prized, and that is a damn shame.

I agree with this, but the problem isn't so much with the publishers, but more with the public for buying these books written by celebrities, regardless of quality. I actually think that supermarkets should shoulder a large portion of the blame, as their book aisle basically consists of a load of celebrity autobiographies, celebrity written novels, and imitations of any recent massive seller ( at the moment they're still flogging 50 Shades rip offs). But then I guess the other side of the argument is whether if people weren't buying this shit, would they actually buy a different book, or just not bother? Sadly, I think it would be the latter for most people, so perhaps the industry needs these celebrity novels to bring in a profit, which then allows them to publish better quality works by unknown authors without needing them to turn a profit.

_____________________________

Better call Saul

(in reply to Cloud Cuckoo)

Post #: 115

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 8:18:19 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

Yes, indeed - fair point; publishers are only meeting market demand. Celebrity is the new religion and, as Marx said, religion is the opiate of the masses.

Perhaps you're right and supermarkets have a lot to answer for. As you said, they mainly stock soft porn 50 Shades imitations and celeb autobiographies at bargain bin prices. I know I've made snap purchases of drivel in ASDA that I would never have sought out on Amazon or picked up in a bookshop with far greater choice.

Stop convenience shops selling tat, I say!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Juice Terry

perhaps the industry needs these celebrity novels to bring in a profit, which then allows them to publish better quality works by unknown authors without needing them to turn a profit.

This is lovely in sentiment, but aren't publishers more likely to simply put their profits into publishing more profit-making works? Publishing is a business, after all, it can't really afford to be philanthropic. Capital is most important, as it is in any other industry.

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to Juice Terry)

Post #: 116

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 10:35:29 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo

Well it looks like Lamps has changed his mind about the subject and characters of his new book.

ARTICLE IS HERE

Hah!

This kinda helps to illustrate the point I was struggling to make the other day. There was a suggestion that Lampard was more deserving of a publishing contract because he had "put more effort in to get noticed", and apparently the evidence of this was his fame and wealth. Thing is, of course, that Lampard has worked at his chosen profession, that of footballer, and that fame and celebrity is a by-product of that. Fame is not proof of anyone having "worked harder" than any other person doing a difficult job. Fame is not a necessary adjunct to his career, it's just an extremely convenient consequence. It's the fame that allows him to go through doors that are closed to everyone else. And no-one likes a queue-jumper. Unless his footballing career was just one big ruse to get noticed by a publisher all along, in which case I applaud him. But that is unlikely.

But, as Terry pointed out, making money off celebrities seems like a necessary evil in the publishing world, allowing them to take a few risks on unknowns. Like directors who make blockbusters to fund smaller, more 'important' works. It's not something that's going to change anytime soon, so I'm going to stop complaining. But I will always reject the notion that a person's fame is indicative of them having worked harder than others, because most of the time it isn't.

_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to Cloud Cuckoo)

Post #: 117

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 10:58:59 AM

Cloud Cuckoo

Posts: 394
Joined: 7/2/2013
From: Mind your own

I felt vindicated by that article too as it proves I'm not the only one to find this story amusing or to take the piss out of it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Unless his footballing career was just one big ruse to get noticed by a publisher all along, in which case I applaud him.

Good God I'd love to believe that. The most circuitous route to getting a children's book published in the history of mankind.

Well, now you know what you have to do: get thee along to a Britain's Got Talent audition and be sufficiently good/awful that you make it to the live shows. They'll be queuing up to publish you.

_____________________________

In Thom we trust.

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 118

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 3:37:19 PM

Darth Marenghi

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/10/2010
From: Manchester

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo

I know I've made snap purchases of drivel in ASDA that I would never have sought out on Amazon or picked up in a bookshop with far greater choice.

Pfft - the only snap purchases of novels I've made from a local ASDA were Moby Dick and Cloud Atlas.

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Invisible Text for SPOILERS: "color=#F1F1F1" Spoiler text "/color" , then change the quotation marks to square brackets.

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Post #: 119

RE: Frank Lampard writes about magic footballs (really) - 24/2/2013 3:52:25 PM

Skiba

Posts: 4178
Joined: 24/11/2005
From: London

How many science fiction writers does it take to change a light bulb?

Two, but it's actually the same person doing it. He went back in time and met himself in the doorway and then the first one sat on the other one's shoulder so that they were able to reach it. Then a major time paradox occurred and the entire room, light bulb, changer and all was blown out of existence. They co-existed in a parallel universe, though.

_____________________________

Have a good time, all the time.

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Post #: 120