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ORIGINAL: jackcarter

urrrgh 6 pages of this now, who cares....its not as if its going to be anywhere near DH3 or even DH2 standard (no need to mention DH1)

we all know its DH4.0 Part II really so no need to get so worked up about it. in fact early reviews suggest its not even as good as that (surprise)

this 2nd DH trilogy is shaping up to be what SW prequels are to the originals...(so at least we should be in for a half decent part 6 )

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ORIGINAL: peter

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ORIGINAL: Drooch


Good post - well reasoned and without the unhelpful stupidity and smugness that plagues a lot of these, well done.

Firstly, I'm not suggesting that the studio is not to blame, at all - Fox are greedy, soulless, audience-hating fuckers.

You've presented two options. Gun to my head, I'd pick option 1. Now since there's no gun to my head I'll pick a new, more realistic option - the same one all other 'free' countries pick - the one that doesn't end up with cinemas littered with censored films, whatever precise form that takes.

Thanks, genuinely.

I just don't see either of my two stated options as being realistic, purely because Fox own the film. You mentioned option 1 as the more preferable. But the BBFC lists on their site the reasons why a film met the criteria for being a 15 (or any other rating), so any executive at Fox could make a reasonable guess as to why a 15 certificate was earned, and then change the film accordingly - as is their prerogative. The BBFC has no authority to stop Fox making changes to its own property.

As for the potential third option that's sued in other countries, I think this ties in with the comments on here earlier about other countries having poorer certifying bodies. I'm no expert on this, so may well be corrected, but it's my impression that ratings in other countries are a lot broader, rather than the specific 12(A)-14, 15-17, 18+ brackets over here. So if another country gives one of their broad-brush ratings, the impact isn't quite so bad, especially if it's a rating where viewer discretion is allowed.

Also, is it not possible that the UK market is big enough that more attention will be paid to the rating over here than in some other European countries by Fox? Again, I anticipate having the actual facts flung back at me!

Can't we all just have a pancake and get along?

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

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ORIGINAL: Cloud Cuckoo
You keep blaming the BBFC for cuts made to Die Hard 5 and other films. Literally everyone else who has commented has said that this is wrong and that the BBFC are not culpable; it is the grasping studios who make the cuts in order to squeeze more money out of their films.

Every time someone points this out, you reply with the same arguments as before, except you start highlighting chunks of text in bold as if this is going to make them more pertinent. This has been going on for pages now. You seem utterly convinced of your rectitude despite the fact not one single person has agreed with you and everyone thinks you are a) overreacting, and b) inherently wrong.

Instead of stopping to consider this, you come back again, seemingly blind to the reasoned argument and logic presented to you.

Now, why would a person continue to debate a point with someone who has shown themselves to be indefatigably unreasonable and beyond logic? Well, they wouldn't.

No. Other posters have repeatedly dodged why other countries in the 'free' world don't end up with cinemas littered with cut films, so I'll repeat myself until they do, assuming they're genuinely interested in this discussion.

Generalised responses, personal attacks and butt-hurt wailing don't compensate for a proper response. It's a shame you've chosen to be a smug prick instead of engage in the discussion.

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ORIGINAL: DancingClown

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

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ORIGINAL: DancingClown

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Good post - well reasoned and without the unhelpful stupidity and smugness that plagues a lot of these, well done.

Wow, condescending fucker. Just man-up and admit that your argument is flawed and hyperbolic and has been rightfully torn asunder. No shame in it. Your attempts to save face by perpetually screaming the same thing over and over (like some teenage boy who's misplaced his Ritalin) in the hope that others will relent is desperate and sad.

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You've presented two options. Gun to my head, I'd pick option 1. Now since there's no gun to my head I'll pick a new, more realistic option - the same one all other 'free' countries pick - the one that doesn't end up with cinemas littered with censored films, whatever precise form that takes.

What utter, utter horseshit.

Cool stuff, lots of impotent rage there, but have you got anything to contribute to the discussion?

I said my brief piece earlier on another page. Others are better at articulating my thoughts on this and I have left them to it. And they have destroyed you. Gloriously. But not nearly as gloriously as you have destroyed yourself. It's been most entertaining. And one other thing:

CAPITAL LETTERS do not help you win arguments. Leave that childish shit to IMDB.

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Most countries have a ratings board and classification system and most countries will instruct studios on editing or will ban films outright.

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The BBFC have been completely transparent in recent years on what they have cut from films and the reasons why and they then put all of those details on their website, this is all true, really it is, go and have a look if you don't believe me.

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Now I'm no apologist for or major fan of the BBFC and it's work but to suggest that it is some sort of humourless cabal intent on destroying the grand works of art produced by the likes of Fox movies and is intent on hamstringing the artisitic vision of Auteurs like John Moore, is quite frankly ridiculous.

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

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ORIGINAL: DancingClown

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

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ORIGINAL: DancingClown

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Good post - well reasoned and without the unhelpful stupidity and smugness that plagues a lot of these, well done.

Wow, condescending fucker. Just man-up and admit that your argument is flawed and hyperbolic and has been rightfully torn asunder. No shame in it. Your attempts to save face by perpetually screaming the same thing over and over (like some teenage boy who's misplaced his Ritalin) in the hope that others will relent is desperate and sad.

quote:

You've presented two options. Gun to my head, I'd pick option 1. Now since there's no gun to my head I'll pick a new, more realistic option - the same one all other 'free' countries pick - the one that doesn't end up with cinemas littered with censored films, whatever precise form that takes.

What utter, utter horseshit.

Cool stuff, lots of impotent rage there, but have you got anything to contribute to the discussion?

I said my brief piece earlier on another page. Others are better at articulating my thoughts on this and I have left them to it. And they have destroyed you. Gloriously. But not nearly as gloriously as you have destroyed yourself. It's been most entertaining. And one other thing:

CAPITAL LETTERS do not help you win arguments. Leave that childish shit to IMDB.

What's to 'destroy'? This is a discussion about the BBFC and why the UK ends up with cut versions when other similar countries don't. If I've been 'destroyed' I really haven't noticed. You seem to be mistaking this for some kind of war zone, why?

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

What's to 'destroy'? This is a discussion about the BBFC and why the UK ends up with cut versions when other similar countries don't. If I've been 'destroyed' I really haven't noticed. You seem to be mistaking this for some kind of war zone, why?

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Absolute DISGRACE. I hope many of you will join me in boycotting this atrocity. I'm trying very hard to avoid piracy but Fox are forcing UK viewers to avoid censored kiddy crap the only way we know with this cynical, audience-hating move.

now I'm forced to reimplement the boycott.

Fox have raped McClane's corpse with this despicable move. Oh, and the BBFC can go fuck themselves for failing to allow adults access to uncensored material.

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ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze
Mattyb is a shining example of what the perfect Empire Forum member is.

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ORIGINAL: Drooch
It would be nice to all have a pancake and get along, but there seem to be some egos and tempers around here that react with hostility to questions they struggle to answer. I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone reasonable to appear and actually engage and make some useful headway on this.

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ORIGINAL: matty_b
You have a nice face, Shifty. A face I would have a cup of tea with.

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ORIGINAL: porntrooper
Shifty said it best

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

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Most countries have a ratings board and classification system and most countries will instruct studios on editing or will ban films outright.

Can you quote some specifics from the article to support this?

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The BBFC have been completely transparent in recent years on what they have cut from films and the reasons why and they then put all of those details on their website, this is all true, really it is, go and have a look if you don't believe me.

I've never disputed this. Why are you telling me this?

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Now I'm no apologist for or major fan of the BBFC and it's work but to suggest that it is some sort of humourless cabal intent on destroying the grand works of art produced by the likes of Fox movies and is intent on hamstringing the artisitic vision of Auteurs like John Moore, is quite frankly ridiculous.

You're right, that is ridiculous. Why are you telling me this?

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ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

The whole point of the 18 rating is that it lets people know that the BBFC don't consider it to be suitable for people under 18. That's the only significance it has. End of.

There are plenty of movies aimed at adults that have a 15 or 12A rating... those ratings don't mean that the films are for teenagers. It just means there's nothing in there that the BBFC thinks should stop teenagers from watching it if they want to.

Stop putting so much emphasis on the numbers. It has nothing to do with the actual film at all, other than to give an indicator of what age the BBFC think is the youngest you should be allowed to watch it.

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ORIGINAL: Phubbs

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ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

The whole point of the 18 rating is that it lets people know that the BBFC don't consider it to be suitable for people under 18. That's the only significance it has. End of.

There are plenty of movies aimed at adults that have a 15 or 12A rating... those ratings don't mean that the films are for teenagers. It just means there's nothing in there that the BBFC thinks should stop teenagers from watching it if they want to.

Stop putting so much emphasis on the numbers. It has nothing to do with the actual film at all, other than to give an indicator of what age the BBFC think is the youngest you should be allowed to watch it.

So why have them? like I say they should just make everything the same then...right?

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ORIGINAL: jackcarter

hasnt the UK always gotten cut versions of the DHs? (& Lethal Weapons) its not really that much different - its just the US are getting the full R cut makes it a bit annoying as they got the same edited version as us for 4.0

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ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

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ORIGINAL: Phubbs

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ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

The whole point of the 18 rating is that it lets people know that the BBFC don't consider it to be suitable for people under 18. That's the only significance it has. End of.

There are plenty of movies aimed at adults that have a 15 or 12A rating... those ratings don't mean that the films are for teenagers. It just means there's nothing in there that the BBFC thinks should stop teenagers from watching it if they want to.

Stop putting so much emphasis on the numbers. It has nothing to do with the actual film at all, other than to give an indicator of what age the BBFC think is the youngest you should be allowed to watch it.

So why have them? like I say they should just make everything the same then...right?

Why have them? How about because it's a legal requirement?

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ORIGINAL: jackcarter

hasnt the UK always gotten cut versions of the DHs? (& Lethal Weapons) its not really that much different - its just the US are getting the full R cut makes it a bit annoying as they got the same edited version as us for 4.0

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ORIGINAL: matty_b
You have a nice face, Shifty. A face I would have a cup of tea with.

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ORIGINAL: porntrooper
Shifty said it best

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ORIGINAL: Discodez

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Point two: If you are not disputing this is how the BBFC works then what are you actually saying? why are you so against the BBFC and how come you agreed so wholeheartedly with "peter" above (by the way, i think he was taking the piss out of you, not agreeing with you, have a read again), or was this a sarcastic double bluff?

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ORIGINAL: joepeterwilson

It was never a DH flick from the first trailer. That horrible CGI helicopter/jumping out the building to the pool below? The film is also 97 mins long or something daft like that. The reasons behind the cuts are horribly clear. R in the states means kids can go with an adult. 15/18 means nobody under that age, so it's clearly a box office grab.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the BBFC being liberal. This has absolutely everything to do with a studio cutting necessary DH ingredients purely to get shitty little kids in to watch it over half term (which starts on Feb 15).

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ORIGINAL: James2183

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ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

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ORIGINAL: Whistler

I know the rating doesn't necessarily dictate how good the film will be, but come on. It's Die Hard. This shit needs to be an 18, or at least a 15.

Any film needs to be whatever it needs to be. Previous films in a franchise should not be a consideration.

Then they shouldn't have written and shot the scenes and then cut them out specifically to get a 12A rating.

The franchise and McClane's character is built on violence and bad language. To actively water down films in a series that fans have loved due to their language, violence and characters defeats their purpose overall.

It's a pathetic attempt to not only try and grab younger viewers through the CGI explosions but to also try and make more money by introducing the 'Extended and Unrated' Blue Ray release later down the line.

With the film out in 3 days and no reviews yet up, as well as a bored looking Willis promoting the film, it's a safe bet to suggest this film is going to suck. Making it a kiddie friendly film through editing will not change that fact.

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ORIGINAL: peter

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ORIGINAL: Discodez

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Point two: If you are not disputing this is how the BBFC works then what are you actually saying? why are you so against the BBFC and how come you agreed so wholeheartedly with "peter" above (by the way, i think he was taking the piss out of you, not agreeing with you, have a read again), or was this a sarcastic double bluff?

To clarify, it's between the two. I diagree with Drooch, but wasn't trying to take the piss. Was hoping that to discuss the opinion a bit more might make its flaws apparent, which i think was partly done through the fact that no-one could come up with a preferred 'third' alternative.

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ORIGINAL: Discodez

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ORIGINAL: peter

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ORIGINAL: Discodez

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ORIGINAL: Drooch

Point two: If you are not disputing this is how the BBFC works then what are you actually saying? why are you so against the BBFC and how come you agreed so wholeheartedly with "peter" above (by the way, i think he was taking the piss out of you, not agreeing with you, have a read again), or was this a sarcastic double bluff?

To clarify, it's between the two. I diagree with Drooch, but wasn't trying to take the piss. Was hoping that to discuss the opinion a bit more might make its flaws apparent, which i think was partly done through the fact that no-one could come up with a preferred 'third' alternative.

What's wrong with the way things are though Peter? I really don't see what the problem is. There are virtually no films banned these days and films that are edited are either edited by direction of the BBFC because they breach rules on violence or violent sexual content (and these rules are changed every few years on line with public opinion) or the studio does it to make the most money they can.

As to the question of whether one agrees with censorship or not is another discussion entirely (for the record I think it's moot, as in this day and age you can get any film you want anyway with a bit of shopping around).