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RE: Are private schools ethical?

 
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RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 12:06:43 AM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6423
Joined: 20/6/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulyboy
Ultimately you could argue that any society where a person, regardless of background, doesn't receive the best education and healthcare humanly possible as a matter of course is unethical, but that's the world we live in sadly.


Agree and to add as someone else has commented I can't see the difference between education and anything else. If you've got the money to go the extra mile then well that's life. How is it any different to buying the best of anything?

It's not like the choice is:

Pay for private school OR the worst education in the world.

There are various factors which affect a child's development and many thing's you can do to help.

- Teach your child yourself: Whilst I still hate mathematics my love of reading started at home.
- Clubs: I had a full week booked with activities as a child; swimming, football, beavers/cubs/scouts, youth club, music lessons etc
- Private tuition: Not for every subject just when they are struggling.

Not being condescending just saying there are alternatives.






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Post #: 61
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 12:13:06 AM   
Sexual Harassment Panda


Posts: 13305
Joined: 30/9/2005
Dpp to be for I used faith as the example here but my feelings also apply to single gender schools, though granted there is a slight difference in that some parents believe by ruling out the attendance of the other and you stop the majority of children entering into relationships that distract from education, but I think that one and only benefit is more of a negative and is far outweighed by the negative effects of social skills with the opposite sex

And I'm aware there are faith schools that do allow children of other faiths in, and these are not the schools I was discussing, but this is a school dependent thing and I know of multiple schools in the local area who have refused children entry due to no baptism certificate or letter from a priest. Are you able to explain how this sits into this setup, I'm intrigued as perhaps you have proved me wrong, and I'm happy for you to do so.

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Post #: 62
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 1:22:46 AM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1164
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

Dpp to be for I used faith as the example here but my feelings also apply to single gender schools, though granted there is a slight difference in that some parents believe by ruling out the attendance of the other and you stop the majority of children entering into relationships that distract from education, but I think that one and only benefit is more of a negative and is far outweighed by the negative effects of social skills with the opposite sex

And I'm aware there are faith schools that do allow children of other faiths in, and these are not the schools I was discussing, but this is a school dependent thing and I know of multiple schools in the local area who have refused children entry due to no baptism certificate or letter from a priest. Are you able to explain how this sits into this setup, I'm intrigued as perhaps you have proved me wrong, and I'm happy for you to do so.


I agree there are shocking goings on in some religious schools. I agree that some religious schools are exclusively for that faith and no other. But when you used "religious school" as a sweeping generalisation you included the many excellent religious schools along with the bad ones.

The ones who do require a letter from a priest or some other proof of faith I'd imagine would be the kind where faith comes first and all else second. To paraphrase clownfoot, they are bad schools which happen to be religious. I'm not a fan of these institutions but I do believe it is a parent's right to send their child to one of these schools if they so choose. I personally wouldn't but I'm not them.

It certainly isn't fair to judge all religious schools based on the standard set by the worst and it's frankly ludicrous to attempt to arrive at a general statement of truth based on nothing more than limited personal experience. You could backpedal somewhat and indulge in semantic wankery to attempt to redefine your definition of religious school to only include those like the ones above, but I'm not sure it'd ring true.

Your chain of posts read to me like the ideology has framed the opinion followed by an attempt to justify it with facts. I use that term in the loosest possible manner. I apologise if I misread you but all I have to go on is the content of said posts. These coupled with an out of hand rejection of an article in an esteemed scholarly journal and sweeping statements with little to back them up provoked my response. I accept you don't have access to the full journal text but the abstract gives a fairly good overview.

This isn't about proving you, or anybody else, wrong. This isn't a debate with right or wrong answers. All I was doing was testing the validity of your argument. I'd have left it alone had you not rejected the journal article and the rest of the post it was cited in out of hand, attempted to sideline them and continued merrily on your way. I just happened to be bored enough this evening to bite.

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Post #: 63
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 8:30:58 AM   
Chief


Posts: 7778
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee

quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

I had a full beaver



(in reply to the anomaly)
Post #: 64
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 12:37:55 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7931
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

Much like the recent abolition of certain criteria effecting car insurance premiums, these religious schools should be removed as a backwards and outdated setup. I'm sure the insurance companies had their stats and figures to back up their reasons to base premiums on gender or other such rubbish just like your PDF likely supports your argument, but that's merely manipulating data to support a ridiculous argument, gender doesn't effect driving or the likelihood to crash, just because statistically male drivers have caused more damage in crashes than women, doesn't mean because I'm male I'm more likely to crash my car badly than if I were female, and the same principle applies to the discussion on faith schools, you may find stats to back up an argument but it doesn't make it some kind of universal truth.


I don't think you read this bit...

quote:

Your examples simply highlight the practice of a poor school that happens to be Catholic. There are also poor single-sex schools (both for boys and girls). Poor sponsor-led academies. Poor academy converters. Poor comprehensives. Poor independent schools. Poor pupil referral units. Poor special schools. When they finally get round to being inspected I'm pretty sure some poor free schools will also be identified. They're generally poor because they have too many weak teachers and leadership that's more than a little ropey - not because of the school structure/type they conform to. Conversely, many more of all these types of school happen to be successful.


Pretty sure I was wrapping you on the wrists for the lack of empirical evidence in your view-point, which makes your commentary questionable, rather than stating that all faith schools are utterly marvellous. Which they are not. See the exclusion rates of some academies with a faith -based sponsor, for example.


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Post #: 65
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 20/1/2013 3:06:44 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

What constantly amazes me about this debate is that the anti-public school people always play the inequality card (and with pretty good reason), but do you really think that abolising private schools would improve the standard of state schools? 


I think it would, in time. I think the type of parents who currently pay for a "better" education for their children would look to improve the state school system by maybe getting involved in PTAs or extra-curricular activities or even nipping the ankles of councillors and MPs to improve the funding of education. Can you imagine how better run state schools would be if the people who mattered to politicians, and actual politicians, had their kids in those schools?

I also think that having "better" teachers in the state school systems would improve them.

quote:

Private schools tend to produce the educational attainments that we would like to see in all our state schools, not just those at the top of the league.  So why, when we seek equality, do we tend to think that it's OK to bring the ones at the top down to the same level instead of raising up the ones at the bottom?


To me it's not about bringing the top down, it's raising the bottom up. I don't want everyone to get the same education. I want everyone to have access to everything - and so, for success at school to be determined by ability.

quote:

Banning public schools won't suddenly fix our education system.


Quite so. Nothing will. Suddenly. So much needs to be addressed and improvement of consequence will take time. More time than a term of government - which, for those with a Machiavellian bent, is a problem - to be solved by means unknown to me.

quote:

Until teachers get the recognition and reward that they deserve, there will always be this inequality between public and private schools.


As long as there are private schools there will be inequality. Ironically, the increase of access to education led to the disrespect of teachers. More pupils for more time meant more teachers. Which meant more and mass teacher training and - gasp - women teachers. The pay gap put schools off paying for men teachers so, like a Tory wet dream, the race to the bottom among yet more of the little people began. I could go on, and on, and on.

quote:

For example, someone mentioned the school system in Finland - did you know that to be a teacher in Finland you require a Masters degree?  The state has said "we only want the best teaching our children", so they set the bar high, and as a result have pretty much the world's best results (100% literacy, though as Bartlet said in the West Wing, "maybe they don't and they're just bad with numbers too").  Highly paid and educated teachers in schools that don't lack for much in terms of facilities tends to produce good results - no real shock in that, is there?  Instead, we get people coming out of uni who take to teaching with all the best intentions, only often to be beaten down by the system.  So what's at fault here - the teachers or the system?  Bit of both perhaps?


"We only want the best teaching our children." Our. The government, the politicians, the more influential among our society... the kids going to state school are their kids, not our kids. So long as their kids and can read and count well enough to work for our kids what do I care?

Make people interested in the system rather than allow them an escape from it. See how better it gets.

quote:

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?


It's not. The parents aren't unethical. Blinkered, naturally so. It's the system that makes the best facilities, conditions, environments financially rather than meritoriously unattainable to many that is unethical.

If we want to make schools better for all then it ultimately rests on the T word. Which, unlike the F word, causes consternation among those proponents of private schools. I refer, of course, to Tax and Fee. "I'll pay a fee to get my child a better education. A tax? You want me to pay more tax to pay for other people's children to get an education? Phuuuuuuuuck off. I'll vote for the Tory."

< Message edited by boaby -- 20/1/2013 3:09:12 AM >


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Post #: 66
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 20/1/2013 10:54:31 AM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Caught somewhere in time

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby
If we want to make schools better for all then it ultimately rests on the T word. Which, unlike the F word, causes consternation among those proponents of private schools. I refer, of course, to Tax and Fee. "I'll pay a fee to get my child a better education. A tax? You want me to pay more tax to pay for other people's children to get an education? Phuuuuuuuuck off. I'll vote for the Tory."




THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!

Also, what on earth is this "Phuuuuck" noncery?

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Post #: 67
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 20/1/2013 1:42:24 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1164
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby



I think it would, in time. I think the type of parents who currently pay for a "better" education for their children would look to improve the state school system by maybe getting involved in PTAs or extra-curricular activities or even nipping the ankles of councillors and MPs to improve the funding of education. Can you imagine how better run state schools would be if the people who mattered to politicians, and actual politicians, had their kids in those schools?

I also think that having "better" teachers in the state school systems would improve them.



What you describe here already happens in the state school arena: especially at the primary level. A school in a nice middle class area will, typically, get better results than one in a more socially deprived area. This isn't purely down to funding. Struggling schools tend to get extra money to improve and the spend per pupil can be significantly higher than a consistently successful one.

In the last couple of years I have worked in schools at both ends of the state spectrum. One was in an area with quite a high level of social deprivation another in an area with virtually none. The FSM list is a pretty good indicator of social conditions. At the first school I mention over a third were on the list; at the second there were 3 pupils on it in the entire school. Sadly, but unsurprisingly the second achieved consistently better results than the former, despite the former spending almost £2500 more per year per pupil.

The quality of the teaching was of a very similar high standard, so it isn't because the teachers weren't up to scratch. No the issue is far bigger than, "blame the rich people, they are poaching all the best teachers." You don't even have to be qualified to teach in a private school.

Does anyone really believe that forcing the privately educated children into the state system will improve the level of education of those is struggling schools? That is a case of ideology defeating common sense. The issues are far wider than the school system, but the school system is an easy scapegoat: and for the ideologically motivated so are rich people.

All the money the parent of the privileged child saved on fees would not be poured into the school system. If anything the already stretched resources would be stretched further to accommodate their kids. No, the money not spent on fees would be spent on private tuition for their kids and the inequalities would still exist.

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 68
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 20/1/2013 3:17:53 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
Joined: 25/1/2010
My view on this is that I probably wouldnt send my daughter to a public school if I had the money to, but I have no problem with these schools existing. I wouldn't because I myself had a perfectly good experience at a grammar school, and I believe that as long as I instill the right ethics and the importance of getting a good education into her then she will do the best she can, wherever she goes. I don't believe that you need to spend money to get a good education, but I understand that some people do, and find security in the cost and tradition of schooling. That's up to them. I certainly would never class public schools as immoral. Immoral would be denying a child any form of schooling unless they could afford it. State educated children are still guaranteed an education by qualified professionals in a secure environment. Obviously some schools have a number of plus points over others, and this is something that needs addressing. But that's a wider issue, and not in my mind a product of the presence of public schools.

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Post #: 69
RE: Are private schools ethical? - 20/1/2013 9:42:19 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Today's Sunday Herald.

7 of the 10 private schools which passed an investigation into their right to charitable status had 1% or fewer of their pupils on full bursaries.

Calls for stricter criteria in the judgement of this test.

Some of the Fees are mental. £24k+ a year!

One of those schools that passed had 1 solitary student there on a full bursary.

Charities my hole. Tax, tax and more tax. Tax the hell out of them.

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Post #: 70
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