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RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 1:11:34 PM

jonson

Posts: 8073
Joined: 30/9/2005

My kids have been in private education since they were 4. I did not approve myself, but the wife went out to work (she's a teacher herself) so said from Day 1, that she will work to send them to be privately educated.
What I found was the mix of parents - those who can afford it/send their kids because it's the "done thing" in their social circle, and there's the parents (like us) who had to work hard and pay/sacrifice other things to send them (for the first 6 years we had no holiday instead)
Now, 12 years later, I would do the same thing all over again. I worked out we had spent �140k educating my eldest daugher. But it's the OPPORTUNITES they get, not just the education. They can do anything they want. There are clubs every dinnertime, after school, my youngest daughter is very sporty, and has training 4 times a week. She have the best coaches at the school, is given the best facilities and the best equipment. This costs, of course it does, and I if I want the best for my kids (I make no apologies) then I'll buy it. If I want them to get a career in field I can give them a lever up, I will do. Again, I make no apologies.
Considering no-one outside of the private system is affected by what other people do wihtin it, it stil amazes me how many people have a chip on their shoulders about private education (see some of the comments above)

The funny thing is, half my friends were privately educated, the other half, along with me, weren't. The state school kids are more rounded IMO than my privately educated friends. they have a better work ethic, and probably have more common sense. I am however not one of those people who expect a school to round your children, give them principles and common sense, that is as much my duty than the schools.

And again, just going on the (typical) comments above, it tends to be more chip-on-shoulder people who oppose these (only for rich people? Give me a break! It's as much to do with priorities than it is expense. I believe most people could educate their children privately if THAT was what they deemed the most important thing. It has nothing to do with RICH people.

My wife and I worked 140 hours a week between us to send our kids there when they were young. I sold a car for a terms fees. I re-mortgaged my house 6 years ago when things were tight. And the comments from some of the posters above (no surprise on one of them but I thought moontheloon was slightly more intelligent) shows a complete misunderstanding of the current education system (and my wife is a headteacher in the state system now so I think she's fairly well versed) and really what parent's consider to be important for their kids)

< Message edited by jonson -- 14/1/2013 1:12:54 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 1:40:20 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

My parents made a lot of sacrifices for myself and my siblings (my sister in particular), and both my dad and stepdad had decent jobs (dad was a pensions consultant, stepdad an AA man). I only ever went on holiday abroad once with my family as a kid. But there is simply no way - no way on earth - my parents would have been able to afford �140k to educate any one of us, never mind 3. It's reductive to imply it's usually a matter of priorities - for most that option really isn't there. Otherwise I suspect it would be fewer that 93% of the population who were state educated. There are those such as yourself and others that you know who are able to do it (and fair play to you), but it doesn't follow that that automatically makes it possible for many.

Again, I don't resent parents sending their kids to private school - I daresay my parents may well have done it had they been able to afford it (although I went to a very good school that was the nearest thing to a private school as a state school gets), but that wasn't the OP. The question is whether their existence is ethical, and in that I think it's much more difficult to defend given the way it tends to cement social divisions and reduce opportunity for some while increasing it for others (if person X gets a job over person Y purely because they went to a private school, it most certainly does affect those without the private system). Having said all that, if I ever found myself in the position of being able to choose for my children between private and state school, I suspect my ethics would be thrown out of the window

< Message edited by superdan -- 14/1/2013 1:41:40 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 1:45:29 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
My kids have been in private education since they were 4. I did not approve myself, but the wife went out to work (she's a teacher herself) so said from Day 1, that she will work to send them to be privately educated.
What I found was the mix of parents - those who can afford it/send their kids because it's the "done thing" in their social circle, and there's the parents (like us) who had to work hard and pay/sacrifice other things to send them (for the first 6 years we had no holiday instead)
Now, 12 years later, I would do the same thing all over again. I worked out we had spent �140k educating my eldest daugher. But it's the OPPORTUNITES they get, not just the education. They can do anything they want. There are clubs every dinnertime, after school, my youngest daughter is very sporty, and has training 4 times a week. She have the best coaches at the school, is given the best facilities and the best equipment. This costs, of course it does, and I if I want the best for my kids (I make no apologies) then I'll buy it. If I want them to get a career in field I can give them a lever up, I will do. Again, I make no apologies.
Considering no-one outside of the private system is affected by what other people do wihtin it, it stil amazes me how many people have a chip on their shoulders about private education (see some of the comments above)

The funny thing is, half my friends were privately educated, the other half, along with me, weren't. The state school kids are more rounded IMO than my privately educated friends. they have a better work ethic, and probably have more common sense. I am however not one of those people who expect a school to round your children, give them principles and common sense, that is as much my duty than the schools.

And again, just going on the (typical) comments above, it tends to be more chip-on-shoulder people who oppose these (only for rich people? Give me a break! It's as much to do with priorities than it is expense. I believe most people could educate their children privately if THAT was what they deemed the most important thing. It has nothing to do with RICH people. My wife and I worked 140 hours a week between us to send our kids there when they were young. I sold a car for a terms fees. I re-mortgaged my house 6 years ago when things were tight. And the comments from some of the posters above (no surprise on one of them but I thought moontheloon was slightly more intelligent) shows a complete misunderstanding of the current education system (and my wife is a headteacher in the state system now so I think she's fairly well versed) and really what parent's consider to be important for their kids)

Fair play for unquestionably defending the best for your kids - I'm sure all of us who are parents would agree 100%.

However, it's the bit in bold (other than the rapings and faggings - I only mentioned that half jokingly on page 1) that concerns me most, not that we could ever afford a private education for our daughter, even if we made significant sacrifices. But, working in and living near Bath, I've come across a few privately educated people and what you say certainly seems to be the case. All but one of the privately educated people I've known over the years has been at best lacking in all common sense, at worst an objectionable twat who treats everyone not on the same financial (cos money ALWAYS comes first) and intellectual level as them like shit. I appreciate that that is something that can't be applied to all privately educated people, but it's been enough to put me off (even if we did have the money without a problem) and there are plenty of likewise examples of the same with every political party (although, on the other hand, you could argue that's just cos politics generally attracts chinless posh cunts with more money than sense and personality - one of my local MPs, Jacob Rees-Mogg [who doesn't even live in his constituency] is a prime example).

Obviously, jonson, your (and your kids') experience has been very different indeed, and it also highlights that the reverse arguement can be said of many a state school education ("my child has turned out to be an idiodic, clueless, drug addicted criminal", etc).

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Post #: 33

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 1:50:17 PM

sharkboy

Posts: 6032
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast

What constantly amazes me about this debate is that the anti-public school people always play the inequality card (and with pretty good reason), but do you really think that abolising private schools would improve the standard of state schools? Private schools tend to produce the educational attainments that we would like to see in all our state schools, not just those at the top of the league. So why, when we seek equality, do we tend to think that it's OK to bring the ones at the top down to the same level instead of raising up the ones at the bottom?

Banning public schools won't suddenly fix our education system. Until teachers get the recognition and reward that they deserve, there will always be this inequality between public and private schools. For example, someone mentioned the school system in Finland - did you know that to be a teacher in Finland you require a Masters degree? The state has said "we only want the best teaching our children", so they set the bar high, and as a result have pretty much the world's best results (100% literacy, though as Bartlet said in the West Wing, "maybe they don't and they're just bad with numbers too"

). Highly paid and educated teachers in schools that don't lack for much in terms of facilities tends to produce good results - no real shock in that, is there? Instead, we get people coming out of uni who take to teaching with all the best intentions, only often to be beaten down by the system. So what's at fault here - the teachers or the system? Bit of both perhaps?

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?

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Post #: 34

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 1:57:07 PM

horribleives

Posts: 4183
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

My kids have been in private education since they were 4. I did not approve myself, but the wife went out to work (she's a teacher herself) so said from Day 1, that she will work to send them to be privately educated.
What I found was the mix of parents - those who can afford it/send their kids because it's the "done thing" in their social circle, and there's the parents (like us) who had to work hard and pay/sacrifice other things to send them (for the first 6 years we had no holiday instead)
Now, 12 years later, I would do the same thing all over again. I worked out we had spent �140k educating my eldest daugher. But it's the OPPORTUNITES they get, not just the education. They can do anything they want. There are clubs every dinnertime, after school, my youngest daughter is very sporty, and has training 4 times a week. She have the best coaches at the school, is given the best facilities and the best equipment. This costs, of course it does, and I if I want the best for my kids (I make no apologies) then I'll buy it. If I want them to get a career in field I can give them a lever up, I will do. Again, I make no apologies.
Considering no-one outside of the private system is affected by what other people do wihtin it, it stil amazes me how many people have a chip on their shoulders about private education (see some of the comments above)

The funny thing is, half my friends were privately educated, the other half, along with me, weren't. The state school kids are more rounded IMO than my privately educated friends. they have a better work ethic, and probably have more common sense. I am however not one of those people who expect a school to round your children, give them principles and common sense, that is as much my duty than the schools.

And again, just going on the (typical) comments above, it tends to be more chip-on-shoulder people who oppose these (only for rich people? Give me a break! It's as much to do with priorities than it is expense. I believe most people could educate their children privately if THAT was what they deemed the most important thing. It has nothing to do with RICH people. My wife and I worked 140 hours a week between us to send our kids there when they were young. I sold a car for a terms fees. I re-mortgaged my house 6 years ago when things were tight. And the comments from some of the posters above (no surprise on one of them but I thought moontheloon was slightly more intelligent) shows a complete misunderstanding of the current education system (and my wife is a headteacher in the state system now so I think she's fairly well versed) and really what parent's consider to be important for their kids)

Relax, I was only joking about the monacles and top-hats - I frankly couldn't give two fucks what school people send their kids to.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 14/1/2013 1:58:17 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 2:02:06 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?

It's not, and I don't believe anyone has said it is. What is unethical is that being able to give a child the best opportunities through the best education in our society usually comes with a rather hefty price tag, which automatically makes it unattainable for the majority and yet no problem at all for some who already enjoy more than most. That, to me, is inherently unethical. I agree with the sentiment that standards at the bottom should be raised rather than bring down those at the top, but it appears that's not going to happen in a society that generally seems to treat teachers with undue contempt.

(in reply to sharkboy)

Post #: 36

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 2:08:35 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

People do realise that not all private schools are for posh-twonks (faith schools and independent special schools would suggest otherwise) and not all of them are actually brilliant?

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Post #: 37

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 2:14:35 PM

sharkboy

Posts: 6032
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?

It's not, and I don't believe anyone has said it is. What is unethical is that being able to give a child the best opportunities through the best education in our society usually comes with a rather hefty price tag, which automatically makes it unattainable for the majority and yet no problem at all for some who already enjoy more than most. That, to me, is inherently unethical. I agree with the sentiment that standards at the bottom should be raised rather than bring down those at the top, but it appears that's not going to happen in a society that generally seems to treat teachers with undue contempt.

I agree completely with this, but does that make public schools themselves unethical? Or rather does the ethical problem lie in the education system in which they exist? To use a medical metaphor, isn't doing away with public schools kind of alleviating the symptoms rather than trying to cure the illness?

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Post #: 38

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 2:35:36 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?

It's not, and I don't believe anyone has said it is. What is unethical is that being able to give a child the best opportunities through the best education in our society usually comes with a rather hefty price tag, which automatically makes it unattainable for the majority and yet no problem at all for some who already enjoy more than most. That, to me, is inherently unethical. I agree with the sentiment that standards at the bottom should be raised rather than bring down those at the top, but it appears that's not going to happen in a society that generally seems to treat teachers with undue contempt.

I agree completely with this, but does that make public schools themselves unethical?�� Or rather does the ethical problem lie in the education system in which they exist?� To use a medical metaphor, isn't doing away with public schools kind of alleviating the symptoms rather than�trying to cure�the illness?

It's a tricky problem I think. The notion of doing away with private schools is fantasy, they've been around for centuries and there will never be any move to do away with them since it would be basically impossible, especially with so many of the political elite being educated in private schools (which causes problems of it's own, incidentally). I think the problem for me is that there is literally nothing that can be done to level the playing field now in terms of the quality of education children can expect, short of completely dismantling and rebuilding education is this country from the ground up (which is obviously not going to happen). I think it's especially important not just in the grades kids receive, but in (as jonson says) the extra-curricular opportunities that private school offers that is simply unavailable to those who attend state school. It's that which allows a child who may not excel in the classroom find they may have another talent that otherwise would have gone unnoticed and unnourished. I can't think of any reason that such opportunity shouldn't be available in state schools beyond the lack of finances or political will, and what can be done about that when we live in a time where schools are being turned into academies, closed or otherwise having budgets squeezed, and when the moment teachers talk about a strike to get better pay or conditions they are slated?

(in reply to sharkboy)

Post #: 39

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 2:57:09 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

People do realise that not all private schools are for posh-twonks (faith schools and independent special schools would suggest otherwise) and not all of them are actually brilliant?

Also, when did all state schools become rubbish?

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Post #: 40

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 3:14:48 PM

Chief

Posts: 7018
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: The Kingdom, Scotland

I think private schools are fine, it's boarding schools that turn people into wankers.

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Post #: 41

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 4:01:33 PM

paulyboy

Posts: 2151
Joined: 30/9/2005

Ultimately you could argue that any society where a person, regardless of background, doesn't receive the best education and healthcare humanly possible as a matter of course is unethical, but that's the world we live in sadly.

As with most things like this, money is ultimately the crux of the issue. If the money was there, it would probably be happening. I'm not sure people really appreciate the sheer cost of bringing the state school system in line with some of the better private schools as far as standards and opportunities are concerned. Where to start, you'd need better facilities, larger schools and probably double the teacher workforce to reduce classroom sizes for starters, you're talking hundreds of billions if the current eductaion budget is anything to go by.

The money just isn't there, it's not just a shake up of the education system that's needed, a massive overhaul of the tax system would be essential to fund such a thing, political suicide for anyone that tries it no doubt, as a nation we bitch and moan about taxes enough as it is.

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Post #: 42

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 7:11:50 PM

Rebenectomy

Posts: 5543
Joined: 20/1/2008
From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

What constantly amazes me about this debate is that the anti-public school people always play the inequality card (and with pretty good reason), but do you really think that abolising private schools would improve the standard of state schools?�

I was actually intrigued as to what your opinion on this was going to be Sharky, considering we live in a country with very few private schools, yet one that is often held up as having a superior education system. Of course there's still academic selection (sort of) and grammar schools here, but has the lack of high high profile fee paying schools not helped in some way raise the standard (or at what is at least perceived as standard before we get into the ins and out of NI education) of our school system?

* Not chickening out on forwarding my own opinion btw, it's just I didn't go to school here, so I'm by no means an expert.

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Post #: 43

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 14/1/2013 9:39:32 PM

galvatron

Posts: 690
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

What constantly amazes me about this debate is that the anti-public school people always play the inequality card (and with pretty good reason), but do you really think that abolising private schools would improve the standard of state schools?� Private schools tend to produce the educational attainments that we would like to see in all our state schools, not just those at the top of the league.� So why, when we seek equality, do we tend to think that it's OK to bring the ones at the top down to the same level instead of raising up the ones at the bottom?��

Banning public schools won't suddenly fix our education system.� Until teachers get the recognition and reward that they deserve, there will always be this inequality between public and private schools.� For example, someone mentioned the school system in Finland - did you know that to be a teacher in Finland you require a Masters degree?� The state has said "we only want the best teaching our children", so they set the bar high, and as a result have pretty much the world's best results (100% literacy, though as Bartlet said in the West Wing, "maybe they don't and they're just bad with numbers too").� Highly paid and educated teachers in schools that don't lack for much in terms of facilities tends to produce good results - no real shock in that, is there?� Instead, we get people coming out of uni who take to teaching with all the best intentions, only often to be beaten down by the system.� So what's at fault here - the teachers or the system?� Bit of both perhaps?�

As for the ethical nature or otherwise of the schools, how is it unethical to want the best for your child?

Having 'higher' qualifications is no guarantee of becoming a better teacher. Finland also has smaller class sizes and a whole host of other things that allow them to be a better system. I also believe that their kids don't start till 7.

Students at private school only achieve more as they have smaller class sizes and thus time to be aided more. I've taught many students who've came from private to state schools and came with amazing grades but have been no better than the rest of the state kids.

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Post #: 44

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 15/1/2013 2:08:42 PM

sharkboy

Posts: 6032
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

What constantly amazes me about this debate is that the anti-public school people always play the inequality card (and with pretty good reason), but do you really think that abolising private schools would improve the standard of state schools?

I was actually intrigued as to what your opinion on this was going to be Sharky, considering we live in a country with very few private schools, yet one that is often held up as having a superior education system. Of course there's still academic selection (sort of) and grammar schools here, but has the lack of high high profile fee paying schools not helped in some way raise the standard (or at what is at least perceived as standard before we get into the ins and out of NI education) of our school system?

* Not chickening out on forwarding my own opinion btw, it's just I didn't go to school here, so I'm by no means an expert.

The problem with the school system in NI is that all too often the success stories are used to eclipse the other side of the coin. Yes, we have higher academic standards and achievement than the rest of the UK and a lot of that IMO can be attributed to the refusal to follow England's comprehensive education programme and retain the grammar school/secondary school tiers. Also, because private education isn't such a factor here, the "elite" status that it has elsewhere hasn't really had the same kudos over here, with the grammar schools largely competing with the likes of Campbell College on pretty much equal academic footing (though with probably a lot fewer pupils making it to Oxbridge!). There's still a perceived pecking order even amongst the grammar schools though, both socially and academically: some schools are rightly or wrongly just perceived as "posh" (growing up in East Belfast my school was one of these, despite being one of just a handful of state grammar schools in NI at the time).

However away from all the GCSE/A level successes, we're failing dramatically at the other end of the spectrum. For example, we have one of the highest percentages in Western Europe of unqualified school leavers who don't even have basic literacy and numeracy skills. I suppose determining whether or not our system has been a success or a failure depends through which end of the telescope you happen to be looking.

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Post #: 45

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 15/1/2013 2:46:47 PM

MOTH

Posts: 3173
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Sittin' on the dock of the bay

I'd agree with that. ALso, I'd say most NI schools lack the connections side of things, though, even the 'posh' ones.

As an aside, I hatched a plan some time ago to buy the plush Lough Erne Resort when it went into administration, reinvent it as a Hogwarts-style private school (complete with it's own golf course and tennis courts and access to watersports) and charge the 'elite' parents of NI a fortune to send their cherubs there, before feeding them on to Ivy League and Oxbridge. I was, in fairness, very very drunk when I hatched this plan. But for that, it could have worked.

< Message edited by MOTH -- 15/1/2013 2:47:09 PM >

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Post #: 46

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 12:38:50 AM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
Joined: 30/9/2005

From my experience private schools are no more about a want for a good education as they are a tradition or status symbol, kids from rich families whose parents went to private schools. Parents who would hate their kids to mix with the "riff raff" and would be ashamed to tell their friends that their children went to a state school. The very same parents who buy 4x4s to keep up with the Jones'. That park badly and cause bad traffic in the morning because they wouldn't dare see their poor child taking a bus or heaven forbid walk to school like peasant.

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

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Post #: 47

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 1:25:20 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

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Post #: 48

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 1:31:38 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Too much bumming.

(in reply to clownfoot)

Post #: 49

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 1:34:21 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Too much bumming.

And in the girl's schools?

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Post #: 50

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 1:39:56 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Too much bumming.

And in the girl's schools?

I don't know, they won't let me in.

(in reply to clownfoot)

Post #: 51

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 1:40:07 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7531
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Too much bumming.

And in the girl's schools?

Not enough bumming.

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Post #: 52

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 2:09:08 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Because in a world that's trying to break down the barriers of racism and work towards equality and tolerance, these schools are doing nothing but promoting to children from a young age that they are different through segregation. Give me a good reason for keeping catholic children in their own school?

My child shouldn't be refused access to the best local school because he's not been christened, or doesn't have a vagina.

That is a bit of a theoretical as in fact the local religious school is terrible, but even that is another reason against religious schools. My niece and nephew both went and the school was truly shocking and well behind the curve compared to the other local schools and a big cause of this in my opinion is the 5-10 hours a week minimum they spend learning about their religion rather than academic subjects. They also don't teach tolerance and understanding, where in state schools you do RE lessons once or twice a week and learn about all religions, the catholic school only learnt about Catholicism and completely ignored the existence of other religions.

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Post #: 53

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 4:04:23 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

That is a bit of a theoretical as in fact the local religious school is terrible, but even that is another reason against religious schools. My niece and nephew both went and the school was truly shocking and well behind the curve compared to the other local schools and a big cause of this in my opinion is the 5-10 hours a week minimum they spend learning about their religion rather than academic subjects. They also don't teach tolerance and understanding, where in state schools you do RE lessons once or twice a week and learn about all religions, the catholic school only learnt about Catholicism and completely ignored the existence of other religions.

Anecdote in action. Marvellous.

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Post #: 54

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 4:21:27 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
Joined: 30/9/2005

That's not an isolated case so not necessarily an anecdote in action, back in my school days all the standard state schools in the region always out performed the religious equivalents, and also the private schools.

As I say, give me reasons why religious schools or single gender schools are advantageous for anyone? Particularly on educational grounds. I doubt you can, infact I think you're just playing the role of smart arse devil's advocate.

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Post #: 55

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 9:04:15 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

That's not an isolated case so not necessarily an anecdote in action, back in my school days all the standard state schools in the region always out performed the religious equivalents, and also the private schools.

Another marvellous anecdote. Not exactly robust empirical evidence. I think this bloke has your number:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8527.t01-1-00231/abstract

An inherent bias towards religion in general that makes you baulk against the concept of the faith school, even though outcomes for pupils in Catholic schools tend to be better than for other state schools, especially in more deprived areas where other state schools tend to be lacking. That's why they're generally advantageous - they benefit the majority of children that go to them, which for those children in deprived areas is particularly welcome (mostly because they're the group that gets the biggest raw deal when it comes to school choice). Catholic schools may not benefit you or your ignorance, but they do work, give children a good moral grounding, decent outcomes at Key Stage 4 and don't do half the stuff that critics typically demonise them with (although Catholic ideals are at the forefront of such a school's ethos).

Your examples simply highlight the practice of a poor school that happens to be Catholic. There are also poor single-sex schools (both for boys and girls). Poor sponsor-led academies. Poor academy converters. Poor comprehensives. Poor independent schools. Poor pupil referral units. Poor special schools. When they finally get round to being inspected I'm pretty sure some poor free schools will also be identified. They're generally poor because they have too many weak teachers and leadership that's more than a little ropey - not because of the school structure/type they conform to. Conversely, many more of all these types of school happen to be successful. But some people like to think one is better than the other based on an 'experience' rather than the wealth of evidence that exists out there. These people are usually called 'morons'...

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Post #: 56

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 11:01:42 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
Joined: 30/9/2005

Seeing as I don't have access to that PDF you've not really done much but pointed me in the direction of a place to get access to someone else's opinions not your own.

From what I can gather though you're saying that many pupils that go to faith schools end up better off than those that don't, that's not really backing up your argument anymore than it is mine. You must be absolutely barmy if you believe that the fact they all believe in the same religion is the reason for this, not the fact that the schools may have better teachers or that the parents of children who want their kids to go to faith schools may value education higher than a proportion of those who don't.

And so again I have to question why someone who doesn't believe in a faith has to miss out on one of these better schools just because they don't believe in a certain religion.

It's not ignorance that I believe segregation at a young age based on gender or religion only goes to teach kids that there are differences between people of different backgrounds, and doesn't teach tolerance. Try explaining to little Billy why everyone in his schools is catholic and why there are no Muslims or atheists in his school, explain why mum and dad somehow believe that through placing Billy in only a group of his own people he'll get a better education, or that the possible attendance of a Buddhist child will have a detrimental effect on his education.

Also with the need to retort to labelling people 'morons' in your argument it's hard to give your views any credence.

< Message edited by Sexual Harassment Panda -- 18/1/2013 11:15:18 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 11:49:43 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
Joined: 30/9/2005

Also why should religious schools still be considered acceptable? If we found that separating children based on other criteria was effective in providing a better education for our children would we allow these schools to be setup? For example white British students only? Homosexual students only?

No, everyone would be up in arms about it. The only reason religious schools get away with it is the power certain religions still carry and the fact that these are long established schools in most cases.

Much like the recent abolition of certain criteria effecting car insurance premiums, these religious schools should be removed as a backwards and outdated setup. I'm sure the insurance companies had their stats and figures to back up their reasons to base premiums on gender or other such rubbish just like your PDF likely supports your argument, but that's merely manipulating data to support a ridiculous argument, gender doesn't effect driving or the likelihood to crash, just because statistically male drivers have caused more damage in crashes than women, doesn't mean because I'm male I'm more likely to crash my car badly than if I were female, and the same principle applies to the discussion on faith schools, you may find stats to back up an argument but it doesn't make it some kind of universal truth.

< Message edited by Sexual Harassment Panda -- 18/1/2013 11:51:16 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 18/1/2013 11:58:11 PM

Dpp1978

Posts: 1012
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

Seeing as I don't have access to that PDF you've not really done much but pointed me in the direction of a place to get access to someone else's opinions not your own.

From what I can gather though you're saying that many pupils that go to faith schools end up better off than those that don't, that's not really backing up your argument anymore than it is mine. You must be absolutely barmy if you believe that the fact they all believe in the same religion is the reason for this, not the fact that the schools may have better teachers or that the parents of children who want their kids to go to faith schools may value education higher than a proportion of those who don't.

He offers a scholarly article which is precisely on point for the debate in hand. That trumps any amount of anecdotal evidence in any reasoned debate. I do have access to the PDF and on a quick skim through it the basic point is that most criticism of faith schools is ideologically rather than evidentially based (sound familiar?). He offers evidence why this is bad, usually mistaken (based on a large number of studies) and suggests a way forward for future studies.

quote:

And so again I have to question why someone who doesn't believe in a faith has to miss out on one of these better schools just because they don't believe in a certain religion.

You fall into the common, but ultimately mistaken belief, that faith schools only cater for that particular faith. That is not true. One CofE school I was reading about had a 40% Muslim intake purely because their educational standards are so high.

quote:

It's not ignorance that I believe segregation at a young age based on gender or religion only goes to teach kids that there are differences between people of different backgrounds, and doesn't teach tolerance. Try explaining to little Billy why everyone in his schools is catholic and why there are no Muslims or atheists in his school, explain why mum and dad somehow believe that through placing Billy in only a group of his own people he'll get a better education, or that the possible attendance of a Buddhist child will have a detrimental effect on his education.

See the answer above.

You do however touch upon a salient point: the import of the parent. One of the reasons that private schools do so well is that the parents typically are well educated and take an active involvement with their children's education. This is usually also the case with good state schools.

Contrast this to schools where parents are not so actively involved, either due to the fact they can't be bothered to be involved or, perhaps more depressingly, they do not themselves have enough education to be involved. These schools will often be in disadvantaged areas and have a disproportionate number of children on the FSM list.

quote:

Also with the need to retort to labelling people 'morons' in your argument it's hard to give your views any credence.

I agree. Sometimes it is better to say nothing and let people reach their own conclusions.

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Post #: 59

RE: Are private schools ethical? - 19/1/2013 12:03:27 AM

Sway

Posts: 8882
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Albuquerque

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexual Harassment Panda

There are only two things worse for me, they are single gender schools and religious schools.

What's wrong with them?

Too much bumming.

And in the girl's schools?

Not enough bumming.

Sometimes I love this place.

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Post #: 60