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RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 1:21:18 PM   
Rebenectomy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
The Canada reference is irrelevent, you already said they had fewer guns, so a smaller gun crime statistic is obvious. Throw more guns at them and I bet the gun-related crime rate would go up.




Isn't the gun thing in Canada not an issue of control, but of demand? Not as many people in Canada want to own guns, even those who do, don't like to have them in the home or on their person, tending to use for hunting and/or at ranges?

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RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 1:23:51 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


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The fact that someone is unbalanced is what tips the sclaes not the imagery. If someone has murderous tendencies they have them. The stimulli is irrelevant.

That was my point about the guns. These types of deaths are caused by either someone who is pure evil or has a mental illness, in a society with readily acessible firearms. If you ramp up the media aspect and dial down the guns you would still have a lower mortality rate. I just don't accept that they are a factor at all. The underlying tendency is there already.

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Post #: 122
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 1:25:12 PM   
jonson


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I don't really know.
I would imagine more Canadians want guns for shooting animals, I've always assumed it was more of an outdoorsy kind of place, you know with Moose and Bears and stuff.
Whereas Americans want guns because George Washington said you could 200 years ago and they need something to protect themselves against Muslims.

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Post #: 123
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 1:27:50 PM   
jonson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

The fact that someone is unbalanced is what tips the sclaes not the imagery. If someone has murderous tendencies they have them. The stimulli is irrelevant.


You see I have to disagree in part. I agree that unbalanced people will have these tendencies, but I do think the media, the economy, the TV they watch, the people they look up to, the games they play, do make the difference.

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Post #: 124
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 2:12:15 PM   
Titanm21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
The Canada reference is irrelevent, you already said they had fewer guns, so a smaller gun crime statistic is obvious. Throw more guns at them and I bet the gun-related crime rate would go up.




Isn't the gun thing in Canada not an issue of control, but of demand? Not as many people in Canada want to own guns, even those who do, don't like to have them in the home or on their person, tending to use for hunting and/or at ranges?


Which goes to show that its Gun Culture that's one of the major issues in the problem of guns in the US.

Along with, Access Issues, Mental Health Care and the fact you can buy fucking assualt rifles.

< Message edited by Titanm21 -- 19/12/2012 3:27:51 PM >


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Post #: 125
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 2:27:31 PM   
Woger


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Canada probably has less of the deluded narcissists who think their gun is the only thing standing between freedom (trademarked) and tyranny.

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Post #: 126
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 19/12/2012 10:23:07 PM   
Harley Quinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darth Marenghi


quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane

In the middle of the reports in today's papers there sits (if they're true), 2 of the crazies sentences I've ever read

Virginia and New Mexico now let people take guns into bars, while Texas and Utah give citizens the right to carry concealed weapons in schools.
In Michigan on Friday a law was passed allowing concealed weapons in schools, churches and hospitals.

Now I don't believe everything I read in the papers, but if that true.....


The bars thing is true - I remember discussing it with some online American chums fairly recently. Mostly in utter horror from my side...


Could it be that America's are trying to come up with the most ridiculous place that you're entitled to carry a gun?

Schools - Mainly filled with children
Church - Mainly promoting good will and peace
Hospitals - Mainly concerned with health and well being
Bars - Mainly associated with alcohol consumption

Fuck it, guns in Disney World!!!
Madness



I'm a huge Disneyworld freak and can often be found on Disney forums getting my fix, I vividly remember reading a thread on a US based Disney forum (specifically set up about Disneyworld) and the amount of posters who claimed they would be carrying their concealed weapon during their holiday in Disneyworld!!!!! was unfreakingbelievable. It was their right and no one would stop them. Scarily, they were totally serious.

Then they would be prepared to 'deal' with any issues that arose in the parks
.....cause obviously we would thank them after they 'took down' that freak who started shooting on Its A Small World, they would be saving lives!!! Or you know, dealing with shoplifters in Tinkerbell's Treasures, or line jumpers on Splash Mountain or that idiot that took the last cinnamon bun from under your nose at Main St Bakery.

And as for Westboro Baptist Church - when the Ku Klux Klan counter-protest against you, you know your in the wrong. http://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/super-page/westboro-baptist-church-vs-the-kkk-its-a-showdown/

For once, it seems possible there be hope in some significant changes in gun control in the US, there have been about 4 prominent Senators who have proposed changes - and they are generally very pro guns.


I know the boards well and read the "debate" on their version of off topic. Was insane.


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Post #: 127
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 20/12/2012 1:19:51 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8324
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

The fact that someone is unbalanced is what tips the sclaes not the imagery. If someone has murderous tendencies they have them. The stimulli is irrelevant.


You see I have to disagree in part. I agree that unbalanced people will have these tendencies, but I do think the media, the economy, the TV they watch, the people they look up to, the games they play, do make the difference.


"I am scared of young white boys. lf you white and under 21 l am running for the hills. What the hell is wrong with these white kids shooting up the school? They don't even wait till three o’clock either. Killing people in the morning. That ain't right.The 'Trenchcoat Mafia'. ''No one will play with us. We have no friends. We're the Trenchcoat Mafia".

Hey, l saw the yearbook pictures. lt was six of them! l didn't have six friends in high school. l don't got six friends now! Shit, that's three-on-three with a half court. What the hell is wrong with these kids? l got people telling me, ''Come on, Chris. Come up to a school. Talk to the kids.'' l'm like, ''Fuck the kids! ''Do you got a vest? Maybe l'll think about it".

Everybody wants to know what the kids was listening to. What kind of music was they listening to? Or what kind of movies was they watching? Who gives a fuck what they was watching? Whatever happened to crazy? What happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Did we eliminate ''crazy'' from the dictionary? Fuck the records. Fuck the movies. Crazy!"

Chris Rock, 1999.

(in reply to jonson)
Post #: 128
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 20/12/2012 5:04:09 PM   
jonson


Posts: 9150
Joined: 30/9/2005
Oh ok, I'm wrong because Chris Rock said so 13 years ago

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Post #: 129
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 20/12/2012 5:51:06 PM   
superdan


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No (although the number of studies that have failed to find evidence of video games causing murderous rampages might mean you're wrong). I simply thought it was a mildly humourous and pertinent response to your assertion. And the fact it was said 13 years ago shows how little has changed in that time.

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Post #: 130
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 20/12/2012 6:41:14 PM   
sanchia


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Studies like Ryder in 2010 showed that violence is not caused by playing violent video games. It has been shown in some others that there can be a slight desensitisation to violence (ie if exposed to a situation where someone is violent to someone else in front of them) after playing them but does not cause people to be violent or increase their likelihood of acting violently themselves. The same has been found with films but the desensitisation is less as it is a less interactive medium (i.e. you do not make the decision for the person on screen to act in a certain way.

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Post #: 131
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 20/12/2012 6:59:01 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


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From: Dublin
Although I was the first one to raise the point with Jonson its only fair to say again that he is not saying COD was the cause.

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Post #: 132
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 5:28:30 PM   
Harry Tuttle


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The NRA weren't joking when they said they were prepared to offer meaningful contributions to the debate about gun laws.

CLICK



The fuckers are beyond parody now.

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Post #: 133
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 5:41:49 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

The NRA weren't joking when they said they were prepared to offer meaningful contributions to the debate about gun laws.

CLICK



The fuckers are beyond parody now.


Its not getting any better.

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Post #: 134
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 6:04:13 PM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

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Post #: 135
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 6:09:13 PM   
Olaf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

I was saying it contributed, not that it was the sole reason.
I'm not into the Daily Mail view that violent video games/films are completely responsible, but they are a small factor in pushing someone that way. The Canada reference is irrelevent, you already said they had fewer guns, so a smaller gun crime statistic is obvious. Throw more guns at them and I bet the gun-related crime rate would go up.
I've had a hundred arguments supporting the right to watch violent films, but you have to concede that someone out there is watching/playing these things and being affected. It doesn't warrant a ban on them, but there is some responsibility there.


Interesting choice of wording. Should videogame developers/filmmakers take responsibility for a tiny, tiny tiny minority of their users being mentally deranged? If so, what should they do about that tiny, tiny tiny minority of users?

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Post #: 136
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 8:08:57 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

I was saying it contributed, not that it was the sole reason.
I'm not into the Daily Mail view that violent video games/films are completely responsible, but they are a small factor in pushing someone that way. The Canada reference is irrelevent, you already said they had fewer guns, so a smaller gun crime statistic is obvious. Throw more guns at them and I bet the gun-related crime rate would go up.
I've had a hundred arguments supporting the right to watch violent films, but you have to concede that someone out there is watching/playing these things and being affected. It doesn't warrant a ban on them, but there is some responsibility there.


Interesting choice of wording. Should videogame developers/filmmakers take responsibility for a tiny, tiny tiny minority of their users being mentally deranged? If so, what should they do about that tiny, tiny tiny minority of users?


I think the original post suggests that a perfectly innocent right-minded individual comes to the games and is corrupted by them.

To me it makes complete sense that a fully fledged psychopath would be drawn to violent films or games. So, if you like, in a chicken and egg scenario, the nutter comes before the game playing / film watching. And I'm willing to speculate that if the games / films were not there they would have an interest in violent books or the history of the Spanish Inquisition or anything else that feeds their need.

I'm not a trained psychologist, but I'd be interested in knowing whether access to being able to live out the fantasy in a game like CoD or Grand Theft Auto actually meant that some psychos didn't take the next step of making that fantasy a reality, or whether it fed their desire so much that it accelerated their next action.

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Post #: 137
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 8:21:37 PM   
Deviation


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From: Enemies of Film HQ
How is gun-related crime in Serbia? They are some of the few countries that might come to compare to the US in terms of gun ownership.

(Also Switzerland which has higher average of firearms owned by a 100 people then Serbia*, meaning almost half as much guns as found in the US, but I think we all know the answer for that, oh and Yemen)


*This means pretty much nobody compares to the US in gun ownership.


< Message edited by Deviation -- 21/12/2012 8:32:57 PM >


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Post #: 138
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 8:46:37 PM   
Ghidorah

 

Posts: 2939
Joined: 6/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

The NRA weren't joking when they said they were prepared to offer meaningful contributions to the debate about gun laws.

CLICK



The fuckers are beyond parody now.



I didn't want to raise it when there was a short discussion about pistols vs shotguns. The problem is a lot of these killers are kitted out with a variety of guns for multiple situations. The only reason is for maxium fatalities during their killing spree.
The armed guard idea is simply flawed for many reasons.

* Armed guard wouldn't be able to prevent deaths. A school ground is to big to cover by one person and anyone can sneak in and start shooting. Also these killers in a way think it's a game to cause maxium casualities before dying.
* Armed guard need a variety of weapons or he wouldn't survive in a pistol vs assualt rifle gun fight. That right folks assualt rifle vs assualt rifle gun battle in a school.
* What would prevent the armed guard being taken out before he arrived at the school.



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Post #: 139
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 9:16:17 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8324
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation
(Also Switzerland which has higher average of firearms owned by a 100 people then Serbia*, meaning almost half as much guns as found in the US, but I think we all know the answer for that, oh and Yemen)


*This means pretty much nobody compares to the US in gun ownership.



Isn't the situation in Switzerland very different due to citizens being expected to defend the country in times of war? Also, I'm pretty sure they have very strict regulations relating to ammunition and gun-type ownership, which reshapes the comparison.

I also agree with everything the Prof said, BTW. Causality is jaundiced when it comes to the influence games, film, music etc. in these situations.

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Post #: 140
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 9:31:51 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18336
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From: Norwich
Apparently there is a distinct difference in the culture in Switzerland. There are many gun clubs etc. whioh are similar to in the US but there is not the same idolatry which occurs in the US. I was recently reading an article whereby it informed that whilst most houses have a gun (dependent on checks and licencing etc. which occur in all cases) most households do not actually hold ammunition on site but rather at gun clubs. If true it shows a massive difference in mentality. i believe there has only been one mass shooting in the last twenty years or longer there although 200 to 300 shooting suicides per annum.

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Post #: 141
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 9:34:08 PM   
Deviation


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From: Enemies of Film HQ
I'm not sure (the reasoning on why they own guns is very similar to the American reasoning though) but it was more asking on why the guncrime stats are so different. I very rarely hear of shocking deaths and massacres from that evilly and boringly nuetral part of the world. It's defo not games or movies (they disentisize, but disentisizing is not really influencing people to shoot kids in schools) and I think the part of stricter regulations might be why.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

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Post #: 142
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 9:56:28 PM   
snazzy_sophie


Posts: 53
Joined: 21/11/2005
From: Edinburgh
I read that the sales of guns have risen since last Friday, no doubt because people think their 'rights' are about to be taken from them.

Also, some universities allow students to carry concealed weapons on campuses!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/education/guns-on-campus-at-university-of-colorado-causes-unease.html?pagewanted=all


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Post #: 143
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 21/12/2012 10:58:29 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

Funny and yet true.

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Post #: 144
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 12:03:24 AM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

Posts: 738
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Piers Morgan (I know...) was interviewing a gun store owner who seemed to hint that even some teachers or senior staff should be armed with AR-15s. I mean, Christ!

He also interviewed a father who lost his child. That was so sad.

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Post #: 145
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 10:31:28 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18336
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
If true a very disturbing and sick testimony of US attitudes to guns (and it was reported in a red top so it is possible it is a lie). Apparently that the type of assault rifle used in the massacre has reached record sales this week.

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Post #: 146
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 11:09:01 AM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4409
Joined: 5/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

If true a very disturbing and sick testimony of US attitudes to guns (and it was reported in a red top so it is possible it is a lie). Apparently that the type of assault rifle used in the massacre has reached record sales this week.


If those reports are true then that is sick to be honest.
Sorry but if America want to continue down this route then let them,simple fact is they don't learn and the very few people who oppose those rules will get blanked by the larger majority.

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Post #: 147
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 3:17:32 PM   
kumar


Posts: 5231
Joined: 2/10/2005

I havent made a comment on this yet, but the news is very tragic. To think events like this, following the others earlier this year and previously, "reopen" the gun debate in US only makes me think why it was ever closed. The americans have dug themselves into a right shithole with this second amendment and right to bear arms rubbish. Gun control there will not work now, and would take years to implement, and judging by their attitudes, a lot of deaths.

Its kindof pathetic.

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Post #: 148
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 6:32:49 PM   
dr. salvador


Posts: 1691
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From: City 17
Although a perhaps an armed guard at schools might seem like a logical solution to whoever came up with the idea, I just think it is worrying to say the least. I also read somewhere that these armed guards would be made up of volunteers so couldn't someone who wanted to commit another shooting such as this just join as a volunteer, thus getting access to weapons?

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Post #: 149
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 22/12/2012 6:37:55 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8324
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
Apparently that the type of assault rifle used in the massacre has reached record sales this week.


If that's true then that's genuinely fucked-up. You have to seriously question the humanity of someone who sees a tragedy like this on the news and thinks "Bloody hell... I HAVE to get me one of those rifles!"

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Post #: 150
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