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RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 11:25:02 AM   
Nexus Wookie


Posts: 2326
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From: the Godcity

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Was just reading about the teacher who hid her kids in the classrom cupboard. The gunman came in and she managed to convince him that the kids were in the gym. The bastard then shot her. She saved those kids' lives. I feel sick.


Oh no

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Post #: 61
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 1:19:03 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18185
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She was only 27 years old herself.

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Post #: 62
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 5:04:52 PM   
Base


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From: Surrey, UK
Taking their lives in their hands if they try this now: Connecticut school shooting: Westboro Baptist Church planning to picket

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Post #: 63
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 5:28:09 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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Joined: 5/2/2012
I've heard the excuse from many US people that is "don't blame the tool,blame the user",but surely if the tool wasn't within a certain users grasp then the situation may not have occurred?
I mean the only reasons that these horrific shootouts occur is because a person has the means and knowledge of a where this tool could be found/equipped.
Just makes me pissed off that,by and large, the guns are the problem and US people don't want to see.

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Post #: 64
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 7:03:18 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18185
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

I've heard the excuse from many US people that is "don't blame the tool,blame the user",but surely if the tool wasn't within a certain users grasp then the situation may not have occurred?
I mean the only reasons that these horrific shootouts occur is because a person has the means and knowledge of a where this tool could be found/equipped.
Just makes me pissed off that,by and large, the guns are the problem and US people don't want to see.


If that is a valid argument then why do people try to stop nuclear weapons being freely available. It is not a very strong argument.


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Post #: 65
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 7:47:59 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4205
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

I have them blocked on Chrome so I'm not even tempted.


I didn't even know you could block comments.

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Post #: 66
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 7:49:54 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

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Yeah, there's an extension on Chrome for it. Not sure if you can do it on other browsers, though.

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Post #: 67
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 16/12/2012 11:00:21 PM   
Cool Breeze


Posts: 2351
Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
Just to add my two cents on this horrific attack, i hope the asshole who did it burns in hell for what he did.I will never understand the need for these cunts who are so fed up with their existence that they have to take innocent lives before they do themselves in.

This isnt the first time this has happened and unfortunately more than likely, not the last.What can you expect from a country where firearms are freely available.Unfortunately i dont see much change happening despite the inevitable outcrys.Even if by some miracle that they banned guns, it would just create a huge black market for them and people would still arm themselves right?

The irony is if they find that this cunt had a stack of FPS games like Call Of Duty and movies like Rambo they will most likely say that its the movies and games that are at fault rather than the countrys fucked up attitude towards firearms.

Sorry for the rant folks but this kind of tragedy always leaves me angry and frustrated.

< Message edited by Cool Breeze -- 16/12/2012 11:01:19 PM >


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Post #: 68
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:57:15 AM   
Mister Coe

 

Posts: 1561
Joined: 20/10/2012
Did someone mention the Westboro Baptist Church?

My god, if any one of those cunts goes anywhere near this awful situation, every single last one of them deserves to be murdered. Seriously, they have negated their right to exist if they try and spread their their poisonous shit around people who are in so much pain.

Human life is always sacred? Not in the case of these evil fuckers...

If there is a God, he will send them straight to hell...

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Post #: 69
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 7:31:46 AM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4205
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Coe

Did someone mention the Westboro Baptist Church?

My god, if any one of those cunts goes anywhere near this awful situation, every single last one of them deserves to be murdered.


I know this is just hyperbole, but that wouldn't really send the right message, would it?

Anyway, they always do this. They say they're going to picket. In the end they don't, but either way they've got the publicity they seek. Fuck them, they're not important. Treat them with the contempt they deserve and just ignore them. Fading into obscurity would hurt them more than anything else.

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Post #: 70
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 10:56:50 AM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

Posts: 734
Joined: 30/9/2005
If Obama decides to move on this, and that's a big if, we'll hear the usual storm of 'he's a liberal, he hates America, he hates freedom, he's a communist, he's a socialist, he's unAmerican!'

'Should we ban alcohol to stop people to drink driving?' is another excuse I've heard. A ban alone won't work...I think we all know that. Guns are a cultural thing over there and it would a take generation or two to change this.


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Post #: 71
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 11:08:53 AM   
Titanm21


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Joined: 18/10/2006
From: The Womb
Horrbile stats in the paper today (Free Metro Paper)

"There is 3 times as many stores selling guns that those selling food"
"There is 85 gun related deaths in the US per day. double that if you include injuries as well"

Could you imagine if 85 people a day die in the UK with gun crimes? (I know they have more people etc etc before you reply)

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Post #: 72
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 11:14:50 AM   
steffols


Posts: 7688
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland
The most obvious place to start is assault weapons. Re-introduce the ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004. Why on earth those things need to be legal is beyond me. I think we all understand that the right to bear arms in America is so enshrined in their society that it will be a long, long time, if ever, that guns are fully banned. But assault weaponry and automatic guns are not used to protect your home, lets face it. Military type weaponry is legal in America and that is absolutely terrifying. Also, I think they need to begin to make near impossible to actually own a gun. Full, detailed background searches of not only the potential license holder but of their family, neighbours and friends.

I seen a picture on imgur earlier stating that a man with a concealed weapon saved the lives of people in that shopping mall last week. Lots of users were supporting the fact the man had a concealed weapon but I honestly cannot think of anything more terrifying than someone walking along, packing a loaded weapon and nobody knowing. Is it just me that things its insane that its legal to conceal your weapon? Ban concealed weapons also.

Only allow the sale of guns, bullets and paraphernalia in licensed stores with regular, stringent checks on the stores licensed is needed as well.

< Message edited by steffols -- 17/12/2012 11:16:40 AM >


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Post #: 73
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 11:42:17 AM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4381
Joined: 5/2/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanm21
"There is 85 gun related deaths in the US per day. double that if you include injuries as well"


That stat is just bonkers.
This article here is a good read:Clicky


quote:


I seen a picture on imgur earlier stating that a man with a concealed weapon saved the lives of people in that shopping mall last week. Lots of users were supporting the fact the man had a concealed weapon but I honestly cannot think of anything more terrifying than someone walking along, packing a loaded weapon and nobody knowing. Is it just me that things its insane that its legal to conceal your weapon? Ban concealed weapons also.


I gather the Americans claimed that as a huge victory for firearms.I bet they didn't shut-up about it either,while (obviously) ignoring the thousands of deaths that seem to pass every year.


Got me thinking.
If you were to stay over a friends/families place,knowing that they had a Gun in the house/flat,would you feel safe?

< Message edited by OPEN YOUR EYES -- 17/12/2012 2:02:54 PM >

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Post #: 74
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 11:48:56 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10390
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca

quote:

ORIGINAL: steffols

The most obvious place to start is assault weapons. Re-introduce the ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004. Why on earth those things need to be legal is beyond me. I think we all understand that the right to bear arms in America is so enshrined in their society that it will be a long, long time, if ever, that guns are fully banned. But assault weaponry and automatic guns are not used to protect your home, lets face it. Military type weaponry is legal in America and that is absolutely terrifying. Also, I think they need to begin to make near impossible to actually own a gun. Full, detailed background searches of not only the potential license holder but of their family, neighbours and friends.

I seen a picture on imgur earlier stating that a man with a concealed weapon saved the lives of people in that shopping mall last week. Lots of users were supporting the fact the man had a concealed weapon but I honestly cannot think of anything more terrifying than someone walking along, packing a loaded weapon and nobody knowing. Is it just me that things its insane that its legal to conceal your weapon? Ban concealed weapons also.

Only allow the sale of guns, bullets and paraphernalia in licensed stores with regular, stringent checks on the stores licensed is needed as well.


This post is so sensible that you can be sure it will never happen

I kind of think that if US citizens need to ensure there is a quick way of terminating one of their fellow citizens, should they run amok with a gun. Then a solution could be to fit everyone with those neck bombs from Running Man. In my head, that is a slightly more elegant solution than everyone carrying concealed handguns (/ Uzi 9mm assault rifles).

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Post #: 75
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 12:15:12 PM   
squeezyrider

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 1/5/2006
I've been seeing comments on the BBC website saying that tighter gun control laws won't work because even in the UK gun crime is on the rise. However criminals having illegally obtained guns is one thing but law abiding citizens having guns is quite another. Here's two scenarios and how I imagine they would play out.

In Britain - I work in a shop and a man comes in with a gun demanding money. I'm scared and do not have a gun so I give him the money and he and his accomplice run away. I am shaken but alive and my insurance will cover the financial loss. This would be recorded in the statistics as a gun crime.

In America - I work in a shop and someone points a gun at me demanding money. I have a gun under the counter which I use to shoot the man dead who threatened me while he is distracted taking the money from me. The man's accomplice who is also armed then starts shooting at me. I hide behind the counter but a customer is shot in the cross fire before the police arrive. One police officer is killed as is the second armed robber.   

Now admittedly I've watched a lot of films and scenario 2 reads very much like something from From Dusk til Dawn but nevertheless in this country scenario one is by far the most likely outcome and nobody criminal or civilian is dead as a result.

< Message edited by squeezyrider -- 17/12/2012 12:16:21 PM >


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Post #: 76
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 12:21:14 PM   
Chief


Posts: 7778
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From: Banshee
If they're never going to make owning guns illegal, why not put a limit on the amount of ammo one person can own?

If the argument is for a home owner to be able to protect his property, surely they won't need more than say 6 bullets for their revolver? Set limits for each type of weapon then it limits the amount of casualties when (it will happen again) someone feels the need to kill innocents.

That's a rough idea off the top of my head. I'm sure greater minds than mine have had ideas rejected by congress.

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Post #: 77
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 12:45:54 PM   
Timon


Posts: 14588
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

If the argument is for a home owner to be able to protect his property, surely they won't need more than say 6 bullets for their revolver?


I'm sorry, but that's never been the argument. From what I understand, the pro-gun lobby worship the Second Amendment, but it clearly states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If that's the case, then all gun owners in the US should be trained, kept on record and in essence be a reserve army. As Toby in the West Wing says: "Not three rednecks in a Dodge pickup."

I honestly have no idea where this 'Guns = Freedom' comes from. Surely it should be 'You want a gun - you're in the army reserves'.



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Post #: 78
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:03:59 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18185
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Coe

Did someone mention the Westboro Baptist Church?

My god, if any one of those cunts goes anywhere near this awful situation, every single last one of them deserves to be murdered. Seriously, they have negated their right to exist if they try and spread their their poisonous shit around people who are in so much pain.

Human life is always sacred? Not in the case of these evil fuckers...

If there is a God, he will send them straight to hell...


There was an instance no too long ago where Texas University students formed a wall to prevent that bunch of neer do wells from getting near the funeral of a soldier killed in a prior shooting similar to this one. They didn't turn up and it is attributed in part to the level of active opposition to them.

http://www.examiner.com/article/texas-a-m-students-create-human-wall-to-block-westboro-baptist-protesters

Hopefully if they even think of trying something with this incident the same happens as I think passions are so high they may end up with someone doing something bad and ruining their lives even more than they are presently.

Edit to change the article as the comments against West boro nutters attached to the previous ones were essentially a bunch of hypocrites exposing the same hate.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 17/12/2012 1:05:54 PM >


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Post #: 79
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:19:42 PM   
darthbane


Posts: 5750
Joined: 27/10/2005
From: Twelve parsecs outside the Rishi maze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

If the argument is for a home owner to be able to protect his property, surely they won't need more than say 6 bullets for their revolver?


I'm sorry, but that's never been the argument. From what I understand, the pro-gun lobby worship the Second Amendment, but it clearly states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If that's the case, then all gun owners in the US should be trained, kept on record and in essence be a reserve army. As Toby in the West Wing says: "Not three rednecks in a Dodge pickup."

I honestly have no idea where this 'Guns = Freedom' comes from. Surely it should be 'You want a gun - you're in the army reserves'.




I totally agree with this.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

I'm not a legal expert by any means, but as I see it, if a gun owner in America is not signed up to a regulated authority/group such as the army reserve, or when the "security of a free state" isn't under a defined threat, then that person is not in compliance with the 2nd amendment?
It does seem that people who are pro gun are misinterpreting this amendment.




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Post #: 80
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:40:13 PM   
Super Hans


Posts: 2394
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Watford

quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

I've heard the excuse from many US people that is "don't blame the tool,blame the user",but surely if the tool wasn't within a certain users grasp then the situation may not have occurred?
I mean the only reasons that these horrific shootouts occur is because a person has the means and knowledge of a where this tool could be found/equipped.
Just makes me pissed off that,by and large, the guns are the problem and US people don't want to see.


Completely agree. For me it just boils down to the fact civillians, for the most part, surely have no need whatsover to own guns.

There's always the excuse anywhere for farmers or whatever owning a shotgun or a basic rifle of some sort, but I'm pretty sure that the guns this guy had his hands on have little other purpose than to be used on other people - especially semi-automatic handguns? What the fuck does someone in a small town in Conneticut need one of those for?

True enough that if someone is a complete mentalist it doesn't help, but they're heavily aided in that (and correct me if I'm wrong, US politcs aren't my expert topic) owning a guun isn't just legal over there, it's almost a fundamental right!

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Post #: 81
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:43:40 PM   
steffols


Posts: 7688
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland
It strikes me that they cling to 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.' bit rather than the first part but yeah, the amendment clearly states a well regulated militia, that has been ignored in that past few hundred years. It's been ignored to the point where 'Arms' now means military style assault weapons and not the rifles the founding fathers had in mind. The amendment is out of date. Just because its old and written on a bit of tatty paper, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

< Message edited by steffols -- 17/12/2012 1:44:21 PM >


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Post #: 82
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 1:44:47 PM   
Brundlesflies


Posts: 603
Joined: 30/9/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

If the argument is for a home owner to be able to protect his property, surely they won't need more than say 6 bullets for their revolver?


I'm sorry, but that's never been the argument. From what I understand, the pro-gun lobby worship the Second Amendment, but it clearly states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If that's the case, then all gun owners in the US should be trained, kept on record and in essence be a reserve army. As Toby in the West Wing says: "Not three rednecks in a Dodge pickup."

I honestly have no idea where this 'Guns = Freedom' comes from. Surely it should be 'You want a gun - you're in the army reserves'.




I totally agree with this.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

I'm not a legal expert by any means, but as I see it, if a gun owner in America is not signed up to a regulated authority/group such as the army reserve, or when the "security of a free state" isn't under a defined threat, then that person is not in compliance with the 2nd amendment?
It does seem that people who are pro gun are misinterpreting this amendment.





Unfortunately...

quote:


In 2008 the Supreme Court issued a landmark decision concerning the Second Amendment. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home


Twonks



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Post #: 83
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 2:18:39 PM   
darthbane


Posts: 5750
Joined: 27/10/2005
From: Twelve parsecs outside the Rishi maze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brundlesflies


quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

If the argument is for a home owner to be able to protect his property, surely they won't need more than say 6 bullets for their revolver?


I'm sorry, but that's never been the argument. From what I understand, the pro-gun lobby worship the Second Amendment, but it clearly states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If that's the case, then all gun owners in the US should be trained, kept on record and in essence be a reserve army. As Toby in the West Wing says: "Not three rednecks in a Dodge pickup."

I honestly have no idea where this 'Guns = Freedom' comes from. Surely it should be 'You want a gun - you're in the army reserves'.




I totally agree with this.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

I'm not a legal expert by any means, but as I see it, if a gun owner in America is not signed up to a regulated authority/group such as the army reserve, or when the "security of a free state" isn't under a defined threat, then that person is not in compliance with the 2nd amendment?
It does seem that people who are pro gun are misinterpreting this amendment.





Unfortunately...

quote:


In 2008 the Supreme Court issued a landmark decision concerning the Second Amendment. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home


Twonks




Surely then if the District of Columbia can blatently ignore/defy it, then the President can change for the better.

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Post #: 84
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 2:20:30 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 460
Joined: 25/1/2010
I don't pretend to know a lot about US politics or laws, so here goes.
From what I've read in the last couple of days, a high proportion of gun sales take place privately between individuals or at arms fairs, none of which is regulated. Surely a very easy first step would be to completely outlaw the private sale of arms and ammo (if it isn't already) and bring in heavy fines or jail terms for anyone guilty of buying or selling privately. As has been mentioned, ban the sale of semi or automatic weapons and reduce gun sale to a strictly licenced transaction, in a store, that involves only pistols or hunting rifles. They could increase the tax payable in weapons and ammo in order to fund the increase in regulating the illegal transfer of guns. There could also be a restriction on the number of guns any one person can legally own, with everybody's details logged on a central database (again, if such a system doesn't already exist). I'm also led to believe that laws differ in how strict they are and how they are enforced state by state. It would surely be much more sensible to make gun transactions regulated by federal law so that every state carries the same restrictions.
Those with greater knowledge on the subject than me can feel free to dissect these points at will!

Also, I don't wish to dilute the severity of the subject with humour, but whenever I hear gun stories in America I can't help but think of Homer's attempt to buy a gun in the Simpsons.
"Dangerously unstable?!"
"Relax, that just restricts you to three handguns or less."

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Post #: 85
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 2:36:07 PM   
darthbane


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Joined: 27/10/2005
From: Twelve parsecs outside the Rishi maze
In the middle of the reports in today's papers there sits (if they're true), 2 of the crazies sentences I've ever read

Virginia and New Mexico now let people take guns into bars, while Texas and Utah give citizens the right to carry concealed weapons in schools.
In Michigan on Friday a law was passed allowing concealed weapons in schools, churches and hospitals.

Now I don't believe everything I read in the papers, but if that true.....

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Post #: 86
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 6:30:44 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18185
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane

In the middle of the reports in today's papers there sits (if they're true), 2 of the crazies sentences I've ever read

Virginia and New Mexico now let people take guns into bars, while Texas and Utah give citizens the right to carry concealed weapons in schools.
In Michigan on Friday a law was passed allowing concealed weapons in schools, churches and hospitals.

Now I don't believe everything I read in the papers, but if that true.....


And frighteningly it is now a waiting game until someone carrying a gun to such a place has an argument and kills people as a result. It is an awful, sick, sick, joke really.

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Post #: 87
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 7:39:42 PM   
Darth Marenghi

 

Posts: 3213
Joined: 10/10/2010
From: Manchester

quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane

In the middle of the reports in today's papers there sits (if they're true), 2 of the crazies sentences I've ever read

Virginia and New Mexico now let people take guns into bars, while Texas and Utah give citizens the right to carry concealed weapons in schools.
In Michigan on Friday a law was passed allowing concealed weapons in schools, churches and hospitals.

Now I don't believe everything I read in the papers, but if that true.....


The bars thing is true - I remember discussing it with some online American chums fairly recently. Mostly in utter horror from my side...

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Post #: 88
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 8:05:34 PM   
darthbane


Posts: 5750
Joined: 27/10/2005
From: Twelve parsecs outside the Rishi maze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darth Marenghi


quote:

ORIGINAL: darthbane

In the middle of the reports in today's papers there sits (if they're true), 2 of the crazies sentences I've ever read

Virginia and New Mexico now let people take guns into bars, while Texas and Utah give citizens the right to carry concealed weapons in schools.
In Michigan on Friday a law was passed allowing concealed weapons in schools, churches and hospitals.

Now I don't believe everything I read in the papers, but if that true.....


The bars thing is true - I remember discussing it with some online American chums fairly recently. Mostly in utter horror from my side...


Could it be that America's are trying to come up with the most ridiculous place that you're entitled to carry a gun?

Schools - Mainly filled with children
Church - Mainly promoting good will and peace
Hospitals - Mainly concerned with health and well being
Bars - Mainly associated with alcohol consumption

Fuck it, guns in Disney World!!!
Madness


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(in reply to Darth Marenghi)
Post #: 89
RE: US Primary School Shooting. - 17/12/2012 8:05:52 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5999
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin
Gun ownership laws in the USA generally have become a little more strict over the last few years but obviously there is miles to go in unregulated arms sales. However it is worth noting again that the three guns that were used in this despicable crime were bought totally legally, with his mother (I refuse to use his name) having complied with the state regulations. However as was posted above why a middle class mom of two grown up children "needed" enough firepower to overthrow Spain is just fucking beyond me.

The problem with gun ownership full stop is that you can get the toothpaste back into the tube. Guns are sold now, the challenge is to prevent further sales whilst trying to minimise the use of the existing arms. Plus you have to ensure stringent policing to ensure you don't create a vast black economy.

Two other major problems are of course the power and influence of both the NRA directly and it's associated lobbying group (that is, the Republican party) plus the fact to change the constitution leads to old (and batchit) argument that it's "Gods constitution".

Obama has his work cut out trying to enact some form of meaningful change, Personally I think that unless the average citizen stands up in a grass roots fashion and says stop then meaningful change is about as likely as me shiteing out a banjo.



< Message edited by Keyser Sozzled -- 17/12/2012 8:06:14 PM >


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Post #: 90
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