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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 8:47:18 PM   
Mister Coe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Coe

There's no clear blame here, just an awful chain of events with a tragic ending.



I think overall this comment mirrors my own views the most, there is no clear blame here, to haul the responsibility of this woman's death on any one party beggers belief quite frankly. As stupid as the prank was, the tragic result was just one of those things at the end of the day, a perfect storm of events including the prank, a lapse of judgement in answering said call, the resulting media frenzy and the woman's presumably already fragile state of mind all combining to create.....just something that happened.

That said if you pushed me to a more definitive answer then the way the press have handled this entire debacle both before and after this woman's death boils my piss no end. Perhaps if such non-events weren't whipped up into such a fucking frenzy we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place, unfortunately we'll never know.



Paulyboy, that's the comment I've looking for since I started this thread. No disrepect to anyone who [put their views on here, but I'm tired of all of it. It;s a fucking horrible situation. Someone died. Tht's all that matters.

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Post #: 121
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 11:16:54 PM   
Pigeon Army


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Coe

There's no clear blame here, just an awful chain of events with a tragic ending.



I think overall this comment mirrors my own views the most, there is no clear blame here, to haul the responsibility of this woman's death on any one party beggers belief quite frankly. As stupid as the prank was, the tragic result was just one of those things at the end of the day, a perfect storm of events including the prank, a lapse of judgement in answering said call, the resulting media frenzy and the woman's presumably already fragile state of mind all combining to create.....just something that happened.

That said if you pushed me to a more definitive answer then the way the press have handled this entire debacle both before and after this woman's death boils my piss no end. Perhaps if such non-events weren't whipped up into such a fucking frenzy we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place, unfortunately we'll never know.


This. Can we seriously stop playing Blame Calculus? One side thinks the other side is saying the DJs should bear all the blame (when they're not saying that), the other side thinks that side is saying the hospital should bear all the blame and the DJs are completely without guilt (when they're not saying that) - it's almost as if, to go insufferably South Park for a second, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The Australian DJs, the hospital, the radio station and the British press all share culpability in what's happened in the fallout from this - the Australian DJs for pursuing such a stupid and potentially damaging idea, the hospital for either having a shoddy security regime in place in a sensitive private institution or for being terrible at enforcing that security regime, the radio station for clearing it and broadcasting it with scant regard for the consequences, and the British press for blowing it out of proportion and making the nurses a laughing stock on the grounds of self-righteous indignation. They're all at fault to a certain extent, though we can't say how much at fault because suicide is a complex issue by no means able to be boiled down to the kind of Blame Calculus everyone's trying to do in this thread. What do we gain from bickering about how much we blame someone? That's for the courts to decide.

In regards to the broadcast about the 14 year old girl - again, the blame falls on both sides. The DJs brought in the woman without screening her, okayed a lie detector test on a 14 year old about her sexual history, and didn't act to stop when the girl expressed discomfort. The mother exploited her own daughter for fifteen seconds of fame. Both were abhorrent and both were to blame, and there's nothing to gain from sniping at each other about how much you blame one party in comparison to the other, as if there's a finite supply of blame to give out.

This is a terrible thread. We're playing self-righteous semantics with a woman's tragic suicide.

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ORIGINAL: Rinc
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Post #: 122
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 9/12/2012 12:19:17 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

This is a terrible thread. We're playing self-righteous semantics with a woman's tragic suicide.



Testify.



That's essentially it. This blame game has really escalated to a point beyond where it shouldn't have in the first place. This poor woman's suicide is used (at least in the Australian media) as fodder for debate about DJ's in general and hospital security protocols. It's almost like the suicide was something akin to a MacGuffin and that really scares me.

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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 9/12/2012 3:12:57 AM   
tommyjarvis


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Is it unduly harsh to say that the victim herself had a significant part in all this, since a) she fucked up significantly in her job; b) she evidently abandoned two young children?

Side note: i saw this "frak" nonsense somewhere in the thread and I'm confused, is it to do with Battlestar Galactica? If so, just say "fuck" and stop this pussy-footing around.

< Message edited by tommyjarvis -- 9/12/2012 3:18:05 AM >


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Post #: 124
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 9/12/2012 3:35:10 AM   
Darth Marenghi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it unduly harsh to say that the victim herself had a significant part in all this, since ; b) she evidently abandoned two young children?



You could say this about a lot of suicide victims, and yes it is unduly harsh.

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Post #: 125
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 9/12/2012 3:45:53 AM   
Pigeon Army


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it unduly harsh to say that the victim herself had a significant part in all this, since a) she fucked up significantly in her job; b) she evidently abandoned two young children?


Suicide isn't a particularly rational act and it's incredibly callous in general to blame people who kill themselves for doing so. It assumes a level of rational thought and moral culpability that simply doesn't exist, and talks about them as if they're criminals.

It's even more callous to say that the victim of this whole prank/moral outrage fiasco is significantly to blame for this chain of events despite acting in a way she thought reasonable in the circumstances (the nurse who committed suicide was the one who merely put the call through). She's the victim.

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She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


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Post #: 126
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 9/12/2012 10:16:14 AM   
Brooksy84


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I think it's worth remembering that before the tragedy of the suicide, most people's thoughts on the matter were along the lines of: "I can't believe they actually fell for that, how embarassing, what kind of idiots do they have working there?". After it happened this has very much changed to "Those dj's are scum, how dare they try to dupe honest hard working people, they have blood on their hands" etc. Point being that it's very easy to make a judgement with the benefit of hindsight, something that nobody, least of all the dj's involved, had when they picked up the phone to make the call.

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Post #: 127
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 10:16:17 AM   
Qwerty Norris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

I think it's worth remembering that before the tragedy of the suicide, most people's thoughts on the matter were along the lines of: "I can't believe they actually fell for that, how embarassing, what kind of idiots do they have working there?". After it happened this has very much changed to "Those dj's are scum, how dare they try to dupe honest hard working people, they have blood on their hands" etc. Point being that it's very easy to make a judgement with the benefit of hindsight, something that nobody, least of all the dj's involved, had when they picked up the phone to make the call.


Precisely. This is what completely angers me regarding the whole situation. The same people laying into them were probably the same folks commenting on youtube over the gullibility of the nurses or the ones who turned it into a media frenzy. Even on BBC news right now, their focus is on the remorse of the DJs actions. The amount of hypocrisy on display is outrageous.

But like our antipodean members have pointed out, this moralistic crusade against them is extremely blinkered when suicide itself offers no rational explanation.

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Post #: 128
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 10:27:22 AM   
elab49


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I'm not comfortable with trying to suggest a complete reversal to make a point. My thoughts beforehand were as stated above - it was a sick prank that should never have been broadcast to get the private medical details of a pregnant woman in hospital with a serious medical condition. That's sick. If in their heads they even considered doing it let alone broadcasting it, they have problems. The idea that an extreme outcome to a prank is unforeseeable is poppycock - it may be unlikely but it simply shows that the people who go for this type of humour simply don't consider the victims of their prank. I see it as a form of bullying and people should know by now that victims deal with bullying in very different ways.

And I completely agree with the other part - I was appalled to turn on the TV this morning to find it was all about them. And Keith Vaz apparently, which is rarely a good thing.

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quote:

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Post #: 129
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:07:12 AM   
DancingClown


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From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not comfortable with trying to suggest a complete reversal to make a point. My thoughts beforehand were as stated above - it was a sick prank that should never have been broadcast to get the private medical details of a pregnant woman in hospital with a serious medical condition. That's sick. If in their heads they even considered doing it let alone broadcasting it, they have problems.


I think that's a bit much. Moronic and misguided, for sure, but you seem to be apportioning a significant element of intentional malice that I just don't see. I'm not condoning what they did but I think it's important to keep some perspective. If it was clear that their intent was to deliberately ridicule and humiliate then I would agree. To me it seems they just didn't think about the potential consequences. They made a mistake, and the radio station exacerbated it by broadcasting it.

quote:

And I completely agree with the other part - I was appalled to turn on the TV this morning to find it was all about them.


Well, you can blame the media for that. They are human beings, after-all, no matter what you think of their "japes" and it's important to hear from them in lieu of balance. They're clearly devestated, and while this doesn't absolve them from any degree of blame or responsibility, I don't think it's fair to label them as bullies. Idiots, certainly. Naive, probably. Unless people think they're faking their grief to garner sympathy?


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Post #: 130
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:20:28 AM   
elab49


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I think to deliberately broadcast private medical information you have no right to have is malicious  If you set out to humiliate someone, isn't that malicious? I genuinely think it is. So it must just be that we view the original act in different ways I guess. And that is what they did - whatever bs they peddle about being giddy at the time, they then calmly sat down and worked out the legal ramifications of broadcast. Would anyone like their private medical information broadcast to the world? They claim they tried to get an OK from the nurses - not that they tried to get one from their intended victim.

I agree it's the media that's plastering them all over the place this morning, I was agreeing with Qwerty. Although there would be nothing to broadcast if they hadn't done their weeping in front of a TV camera. Private devastation is private, not for public consumption. Why continue to feed it? It can hardly be helping the family.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:24:08 AM   
Pigeon Army


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I agree it's the media that's plastering them all over the place this morning, I was agreeing with Qwerty. Although there would be nothing to broadcast if they hadn't done their weeping in front of a TV camera. Private devastation is private, not for public consumption. Why continue to feed it? It can hardly be helping the family.


Arguably they've been forced into a position where they've had to make a public statement - it's either that or continue to be demonised by a press keen to avoid responsibility for their part in this. Damned if you do etc. etc.

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ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:32:27 AM   
elab49


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Sadly, nowadays, I think your analysis is correct. I'm not sure what changes with the interview though - every other news org will still want them, and what happened is what happened. Shutting it all out till it calms down must still be some kind of option? They could just say it was because of the family of the nurse.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:46:50 AM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

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I had a look at some of the online reaction on the radio show's facebook page on the day the story broke. If only the keyboard warriors were prepared to put that kind of energy into tackling mental health stigma. Far too much emphasis on the radio people, at present.

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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:48:28 AM   
Pigeon Army


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Sadly, nowadays, I think your analysis is correct. I'm not sure what changes with the interview though - every other news org will still want them, and what happened is what happened. Shutting it all out till it calms down must still be some kind of option? They could just say it was because of the family of the nurse.


If they shut it all out, it'll just get louder - why aren't they saying they're sorry? why aren't they prostrating themselves and begging for mercy? fucking uppity DJs, don't even care blah blah blah. The people have been easily directed into self-righteous anger at the DJs thanks to the press' blatant diversion tactics - that ain't no bull you're getting out of the path of unless you make all attempts to calm it down. Ignoring it isn't an option.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
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Post #: 135
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 11:58:08 AM   
elab49


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Isn't it possible they're the same ones that move on to their next outrage when this drops down the cycle, as it will?  A 3 day wonder and then the option to do something when it isn't headlining every bulletin and the family have had the chance to bury their loved one.

If the demand for immediate satisfaction for public consumption wasn't pandered to maybe? Or have their PR people just said this is the likeliest way to get it to move down the bulletins faster, even if it does come across as pretty self-serving.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 136
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 1:27:21 PM   
Brooksy84


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I'm actually not a fan of practical joke tv/radio. Even as a kid I found Beadle's About boring, and the Gotcha's were what I found least amusing of House Party. It does nothing for me, but I really don't accept that what they were doing was a nasty or evil act. I also don't buy that they were trying to obtain Kate's private medical information. If that was all they wanted, they could have pretended to be a medical correspondant to the Royal family, or Kate and William's press secretary, or some other such role and played it perfectly straight, But they didn't, they put on some crap accents and pretended to be the Queen and Prince to see what reaction they got. It was a joke - a misguided one maybe, but not a malicious one. As far as describing the act as bullying goes, that is something I find not only unfair but also pretty offensive to be honest.

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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 1:45:07 PM   
elab49


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You mention the old Beadle stuff and I'm with you on that completely. I'm sure some thought it was a hoot, but I really doubt all (my parents watched it so I did see it). But what about the other victims of his 'jokes that didn't find it funny  - they either plaster on a smile no matter how much of an idiot they've been made to look or they get even more crap for not being able to take a 'joke'. How many bullies have you heard start out their defence with 'it was only a joke'. 'They should have joined in because we only meant it as fun, honest'. It's a type of humour that I think too often relies on making people look like idiots for falling for it.

And everything else you mention might be feasible - right up the bit when they got their lawyers to look at it and broadcast it. It wasn't heat of the moment, they made an active decision to go ahead use what they'd gotten.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 138
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 2:00:07 PM   
kumar


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Kindof had a think about this and here is is...

The whole event has been terribly reported. Took me a while to understand the reports and even longer to understand that the woman who forwarded the call committed suicide and not the person who divulged information (whatever she disclosed anyway). I dont believe the Djs are responsible for a suicide. But, any healthcare worker or person who works with people do know the paramount importance of confidentiality. Its one of the highest values of healthcare which has on occasion caused disputes between patient, parents and practitioners. However, the success of the call, however pranky and silly it may have seemed at the time, depended on a breach of confidentiality and therefore severely compromised the nurses professional integrity.

Im sure the nurse faced heavy criticism afterwards and may have probably faced disciplinary action. Sacking? I wouldnt have thought so. Worth committing suicide over? Again, I dont think so, but the panic and worry caused is very understandable and could easily have been a contributing factor to commit suicide in addition to other (undetermined) factors.

The Djs are sorry, everyone is sorry. But I dont think at the moment they are truly to blame (unless the this was the only factor in the suicide, which we probably wont be able to determine). They are facing heavy backlashes and im sure they feel complete guilt. There must be some sort of review into what is and what is not acceptable in terms of entertainment- surely an act which success depends on a sheer lapse of proffessional integrity should not stand as acceptable.

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Post #: 139
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 2:46:31 PM   
shool


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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 2:57:46 PM   
steffols


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The interview with the DJs, the woman is devastated. You can really see this has had an affect on her.

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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 4:23:45 PM   
Chief


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Granted I only know the basics, DJ's made prank call, Nurse A put the call through, Nurse B gave out information, Nurse A commits suicide. Is that right?

She wasn't facing disciplinary action, the Royals weren't that bothered and there wasn't going to be any repercussions for her so why did she kill herself?

Was she teetering on the brink already and this was the straw that broke the camels back? I can't imagine suicide is an easy option and it seems a bit OTT if it's over the above.

I hope the above doesn't sound insensitive, it's not meant to. I think I'm missing part of the story.

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Post #: 142
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 6:17:40 PM   
lbiu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

Granted I only know the basics, DJ's made prank call, Nurse A put the call through, Nurse B gave out information, Nurse A commits suicide. Is that right?

She wasn't facing disciplinary action, the Royals weren't that bothered and there wasn't going to be any repercussions for her so why did she kill herself?

Was she teetering on the brink already and this was the straw that broke the camels back? I can't imagine suicide is an easy option and it seems a bit OTT if it's over the above.

I hope the above doesn't sound insensitive, it's not meant to. I think I'm missing part of the story.


I completely agree. I just think the whole thing has been tragic

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Post #: 143
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 7:48:17 PM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17347
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lbiu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

Granted I only know the basics, DJ's made prank call, Nurse A put the call through, Nurse B gave out information, Nurse A commits suicide. Is that right?

She wasn't facing disciplinary action, the Royals weren't that bothered and there wasn't going to be any repercussions for her so why did she kill herself?

Was she teetering on the brink already and this was the straw that broke the camels back? I can't imagine suicide is an easy option and it seems a bit OTT if it's over the above.

I hope the above doesn't sound insensitive, it's not meant to. I think I'm missing part of the story.


I completely agree. I just think the whole thing has been tragic


It's an absolute tragedy, a very sad series of events that have resulted in two young children planning for the rest of their life without their mother.

I have never been a fan of prank phone calls, practical jokes on the whole, but especially those conducted by radio shows. They're often rude and cruel, can someone find me in the humour in publicly humiliating someone just trying to do their job? I don't give a toss whether "they've been doing them for years" or not, hopefully this very tragic event will go some way to highlighting this and maybe the radio authorities will consider this in the future. As for their interview and subsquent explanation where they tried to claim the joke was in fact "on them," I do hope there was no-one out there who seriously bought that.

I am not saying though that they are responsible for her death, that would be taking it out of context, suicide is a very dark issue and one for those of us who have never considered it one we really can't begin to understand. We don't know anything else about this woman's circumstances but if she was depressed, this could have quite easily been the straw that broke the camel's back, unfortunately we will probably never know.

Very, very sad.

< Message edited by Goodfella -- 10/12/2012 7:57:54 PM >


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Post #: 144
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 8:37:44 PM   
matty_b


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It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out about this regarding the media's involvement in it.

I don't believe for one second various papers wouldn't have been prying into her private life before she took this terrible action - who knows what form that took?

< Message edited by matty_b -- 10/12/2012 8:38:00 PM >


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(in reply to Goodfella)
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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 9:13:47 PM   
SWOTBM


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So does no one find prank calls funny?

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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 9:27:26 PM   
Woger


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What was the prank? As far as I can see they used false pretences to get confidential information. There's nothing funny about it.

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Post #: 147
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 9:32:14 PM   
SWOTBM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

What was the prank? As far as I can see they used false pretences to get confidential information. There's nothing funny about it.


Yeah, that accent was super cereal.

But I wasn't really asking about this particular prank call, just generally. It seems that no one on here likes prank calls.

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Post #: 148
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 9:35:37 PM   
Mister Coe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

What was the prank? As far as I can see they used false pretences to get confidential information. There's nothing funny about it.


Better a couple of Australian pranksters than the gutter press.

And, as someone who works for the NHS, they should never have got that far.

Again, I say that the hospital and the security services let that poor nurse down.

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Post #: 149
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 10/12/2012 9:37:55 PM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17347
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

So does no one find prank calls funny?


I fail to see what's funny about them, especially ones that are to unsuspecting members of the general public just trying to do their job. What's remotely funny about that?



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