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RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:26:25 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54574
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

This radio station does have form. I was reading about the 14yo dragged on for some Jeremy Kyle type crap with a lie detector and telling her idiot mother she was actually raped. And that doesn't seem to be the only stunt they've pulled.



You mean this?

quote:

In yesterday's segment, the 14-year-old, who was brought on to undergo a lie detector test because of her mother's concerns about her drugs and sex experience, told Sandilands before the questions started: "I'm scared ... it's not fair."

After asking her daughter if she had skipped school, the mother asked: "Have you ever had sex?"

The 14-year-old replied: "I've already told you the story about this ... and don't look at me and smile because it's not funny."

After a pause she then raised her voice and said: "Oh, OK I got raped when I was 12 years old."




The girl was brought on by her mother. Her mother knew about the rape. Her mother insisted on questioning her, and by the daughter's own words was smiling at her when questioning her. How is that the fault of anyone other than the mother? She knew her daughter had been raped and still subjected her to that on air.

quote:

I don't think the hospital not having proper procedures in place changes, for me, the sheer idiocy of trying it on in the first place.


What's the greater idiocy? Djs making a prank call or a hospital not bothering with proper security measures?




The DJs. A dumb mistake vs a deliberate decision to do this and broadcast? Active vs passive - active wins, for me. There isn't any question. They didn't give a shit about anyone they hurt, they went ahead and did their thing.

I don't excuse the mother, btw. But the radio show gave her airtime to bring on a 14yo and use a lie detector on her. That's why they got slammed. She should never have been allowed in the door - decent people would never have allowed her in the door, IMO.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 31
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:27:20 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
Better yet, ask Bob one on misogyny.


I would do but I don't know what it means, and I'm sure Elab won't worry her pretty little head about it.

Another version of the rape interview

quote:


Despite the girl's protests that she was "scared" and believed the questions were not "fair" the "Kyle & Jackie-O" radio show host encouraged both the girl and her mother to discuss whether she was sexually active, to which the girl responded: "I've already told you the story of this and don't look at me and smile because it's not funny. Oh, okay. I got raped when I was 12 years old."

To which the host replied: "Right. And is that, is that the only experience you've had?"


What about the hoax to a family with a disabled child, and how they told them they'd raised $150,000 for them.
Oh how we laughed.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 7/12/2012 11:31:41 PM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 32
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:29:23 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

What's the greater idiocy? Djs making a prank call or a hospital not bothering with proper security measures?




The DJs. Is it a starter for 10?




And thank you for proving my point. If you genuinely were outraged by this, you'd be looking to share the responsibility around all concerned. Of course, you're not. You just want to jump a moral bandwagon.

quote:

There is also a very real risk of if you manage to con the nurses (whom they must have expected to get past), that they could lose their jobs.


If it had been your wife in hospital and someone phoned up asking for medical information and the nurses put them through without checking their identity thoroughly, would you want them to lose their jobs?

quote:

They didn't seem to worry too much about that either. But yet they should now be absolved because the stupid dead nurse put them through.


Yeah, and the hospital should be absolved of its responsibility to patients because it's easier to point the finger in one direction instead of looking at everyone responsible.

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 33
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:30:39 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54574
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I can understand why people would be concerned about some of the stupid and frankly vile stuff that's been aimed at the DJs who perpetrated it, but I don't think that's any reason to mitigate their responsibility for their own prank.



I'm not. I'm saying they don't deserve all the blame. And the fact that people are more than willing to give the hospital a pass just suggests to me they want their outrage and they don't care about proportion.



And I think it's down to the active vs passive thing. These people actively wanted to cause sensation and actively chose to do something that could hurt and embarass people. I think it's natural to find that harder to forgive than incompetence.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 34
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:33:17 PM   
Mister Coe

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 20/10/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Coe


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

The condition she has was made public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/hyperemesisgravidarum1.shtml

The doctors discussing it on the news made clear stress was to be avoided. So I don't know what you know but unless they're lying about her having a relatively rare condition, the woman does not have a common condition that she'll just 'get over' - she might have about another 3 months of it, minimum. Perhaps your mate's wife had normal morning sickness - which is also something that shouldn't be dismissed, deeply unpleasant as it is. I do recall a discussion between one of the presenters and a female GP about whether male GPs were likely to deal with the potential complications properly given some kind of wide acceptance that some men dismiss morning sickness without understanding how debilitating it can be (the female GP strongly defended her male colleagues BTW arguing that most men had dragged themselves out of the dark ages wrt the tackily dismissive 'womens' problems'). .

So I don't really care how the presenters feel - it was a dumb and fairly shitty joke in the first place and they clearly didn't give a toss that getting as far as they did could have gotten someone into trouble and have been getting off on their worldwide publicity ever since. Now they get the other side it probably doesn't feel quite so funny. Tough.





Mate... SOMEBODY FUCKING DIED! Yes, it was a stupid joke, but do you REALLY think that this is ore important than a massively wealthy woman is going to throw up for a few more weeks?

Seriously?


I'm not really sure what you mean - I haven't said any of that. I was simply disagreeing with your statement regarding the condition she has.



Sorry, Elab, no disrespect, just feeling that all this fuss over Katie puking up for a bit is ridiculous and a couple of idiots ringing up the hospital to make their listeners laugh and becoming worldwide hate-objects because of it is horrible and stupid in view of the fact that somebody killed themselves over it.

What a stupid, senseless thing.

_____________________________

Say what now?

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 35
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:34:01 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I can understand why people would be concerned about some of the stupid and frankly vile stuff that's been aimed at the DJs who perpetrated it, but I don't think that's any reason to mitigate their responsibility for their own prank.



I'm not. I'm saying they don't deserve all the blame. And the fact that people are more than willing to give the hospital a pass just suggests to me they want their outrage and they don't care about proportion.



And I think it's down to the active vs passive thing. These people actively wanted to cause sensation and actively chose to do something that could hurt and embarass people. I think it's natural to find that harder to forgive than incompetence.



Djs looking to shock on one hand, serious failings in hospital security on another. And it's really the djs who deserve all the blame here? There's no urgent need for security to be addressed, to look into how this happened, to examine why the nurse was even put in the position in the first place?

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 36
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:34:18 PM   
steffols


Posts: 7688
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland
I can't get over the reasoning behind the prank call. Why? Kate is a woman in the very early stages of pregnancy (very, very early and now its public, that can't be fun) who has severe morning sickness. Why on earth would a radio show think its fun to prank call the hospital and pretend to be the Queen? It's just so humourless. Oh, haha, we managed to infiltrate the patient confidentiality of a woman who happens to have married into the royal family and is now in a very vulnerable condition.

This is such a sad, sorry state of affairs. Which should be a happy time for these parents-to-be is now riddled with stress and sadness, which won't be good for Kates health.

That poor nurses family now is without a wife, a mother and for what? It's just so horrible.

< Message edited by steffols -- 7/12/2012 11:35:15 PM >


_____________________________

It's midnight in Manhattan, this is no time to get cute, it's a mad dog's promenade,
So walk tall, or baby don't walk at all.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 37
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:39:57 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54574
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I can understand why people would be concerned about some of the stupid and frankly vile stuff that's been aimed at the DJs who perpetrated it, but I don't think that's any reason to mitigate their responsibility for their own prank.



I'm not. I'm saying they don't deserve all the blame. And the fact that people are more than willing to give the hospital a pass just suggests to me they want their outrage and they don't care about proportion.



And I think it's down to the active vs passive thing. These people actively wanted to cause sensation and actively chose to do something that could hurt and embarass people. I think it's natural to find that harder to forgive than incompetence.



Djs looking to shock on one hand, serious failings in hospital security on another. And it's really the djs who deserve all the blame here? There's no urgent need for security to be addressed, to look into how this happened, to examine why the nurse was even put in the position in the first place?



I think they'll probably already have done that, don't you? And that's probably why the nurses weren't disciplined. The family have also already said they didn't raise a complaint to the hospital.

I don't think it will take much examination anyway. They didn't have a receptionist as it was 5.30 which probably means it works pretty much like most hospitals. The phone will ring for ages and if anyone's passing (and the stories refer to her as doing so) they'll answer it. Half 5 in the morning, near end of shift (unless private hospitals have weird shifts that aren't like the NHS which I don't believe to the case).

It's an admirable one-man fight for balance but, personally, I think intent more than tips the scale. The hospital screwed up, they didn't deliberately set out to do anything. The radio station was deliberate.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 38
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:43:51 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
And thank you for proving my point. If you genuinely were outraged by this, you'd be looking to share the responsibility around all concerned. Of course, you're not. You just want to jump a moral bandwagon.

Didn't really know there was only one stage of denoucing something, and its set to the standard of "outraged".
Just to keep it in context, I'm annoyed enough to denounce it as moronic, thoughtless, and unfunny. I'm also annoyed enough to call them a few names. I'm not annoyed enough to hunt them down, find out where they live and kill them. Which I supposed I could do if I was genuinely outraged.

quote:


If it had been your wife in hospital and someone phoned up asking for medical information and the nurses put them through without checking their identity thoroughly, would you want them to lose their jobs?


No, in this circumstance even before the death I wouldn't want someone sacked for an honest mistake.


quote:


Yeah, and the hospital should be absolved of its responsibility to patients because it's easier to point the finger in one direction instead of looking at everyone responsible.

Or you put the blame where it should be, you know those who actually came up with the idea and put it into practice.

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 39
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 7/12/2012 11:52:17 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I can understand why people would be concerned about some of the stupid and frankly vile stuff that's been aimed at the DJs who perpetrated it, but I don't think that's any reason to mitigate their responsibility for their own prank.



I'm not. I'm saying they don't deserve all the blame. And the fact that people are more than willing to give the hospital a pass just suggests to me they want their outrage and they don't care about proportion.



And I think it's down to the active vs passive thing. These people actively wanted to cause sensation and actively chose to do something that could hurt and embarass people. I think it's natural to find that harder to forgive than incompetence.



Djs looking to shock on one hand, serious failings in hospital security on another. And it's really the djs who deserve all the blame here? There's no urgent need for security to be addressed, to look into how this happened, to examine why the nurse was even put in the position in the first place?



I think they'll probably already have done that, don't you? And that's probably why the nurses weren't disciplined. The family have also already said they didn't raise a complaint to the hospital.



I'm talking about the internet response from certain people, which is tying itself in knots trying to show a sense of moral superiority against the djs, but refusing to recognise the equal responsibility of the hospital in this situation. If there's genuinely a feeling that the prank calls are a form of bullying, how does the rabid responses of some on this situation make them any better?

quote:

I don't think it will take much examination anyway. They didn't have a receptionist as it was 5.30 which probably means it works pretty much like most hospitals. The phone will ring for ages and if anyone's passing (and the stories refer to her as doing so) they'll answer it. Half 5 in the morning, near end of shift (unless private hospitals have weird shifts that aren't like the NHS which I don't believe to the case).


But why don't they have a receptionist given the nature of the patient? Why aren't all calls diverted straight to the royal security team? These aren't questions I'm seeing asked, I'm just seeing this DJS ARE EVIL!!!!!! response, which to me seems both completely unbalanced and counter-productive. Why aren't the media being taken to task for building this up so much? Give the djs shit, I have no problem with that, I just have a problem with everyone else getting an easy ride and them getting all the hatred for this.

quote:

It's an admirable one-man fight for balance but, personally, I think intent more than tips the scale. The hospital screwed up, they didn't deliberately set out to do anything. The radio station was deliberate.


But the intent wasn't to cause a tragedy, it was to get a stupid bit they could play and get a little publicity. I don't think for a second they honestly thought they'd get through, they were probably hoping to play on the responses of the receptionist. If people want to call that a thoughtless prank, that's fine. But this idea that they're responsible for a death is equally thoughtless.


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 40
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:00:05 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Didn't really know there was only one stage of denoucing something, and its set to the standard of "outraged".



Well what with you calling for them never to be allowed to work in radio again and refusal to attribute any blame anywhere other than the djs you seemed a little outraged.

quote:

No, in this circumstance even before the death I wouldn't want someone sacked for an honest mistake.


Yet you're perfectly happy to call for the djs not to be allowed to work in radio again. Oh of course, I forgot. They were completely to blame.

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 41
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:03:23 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8220
Joined: 31/7/2008
I've been fairly shocked by this story, and I have to say Rawls I can't agree with your stance. If (and it is still an if, it would still be premature to draw conclusions at this stage even as apparent as it seems) it turns out this nurses committed suicide as a result of this prank call I fail to see how responsibility lies at her (or the hospitals) door rather than the prank callers. Blaming lack of procedural security is perilously close to a Squidward defence. A woman was hoodwinked into breaching sensitive information about a very famous woman. She then may have committed suicide as a result. Where, if we are looking for blame, does it lie? With her? That seems cold to say the least. There is an element of victim blame associated with this that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable, and while the DJ's aren't directly responsible for this woman's death, passing the buck to failures in hospital security seems very misguided. If you were the designated driver and someone spikes your drink and you had an accident, is it your fault? Or the fault of the person who spiked your drink?

The bottom line is, if you play a prank that causes shit, it usually is your fault.

< Message edited by superdan -- 8/12/2012 12:06:50 AM >

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 42
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:04:59 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
I'm talking about the internet response from certain people, which is tying itself in knots trying to show a sense of moral superiority against the djs, but refusing to recognise the equal responsibility of the hospital in this situation. If there's genuinely a feeling that the prank calls are a form of bullying, how does the rabid responses of some on this situation make them any better?

The internet posters are commenting directly about the public actions of these individuals. Actions which the DJs were more than happy to enjoy the notoriety yesterday. A minority will always go too far, however you comparison just doesn't work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
But why don't they have a receptionist given the nature of the patient? Why aren't all calls diverted straight to the royal security team? These aren't questions I'm seeing asked, I'm just seeing this DJS ARE EVIL!!!!!! response, which to me seems both completely unbalanced and counter-productive. Why aren't the media being taken to task for building this up so much? Give the djs shit, I have no problem with that, I just have a problem with everyone else getting an easy ride and them getting all the hatred for this.

Because the DJs are ultimately responsible, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

quote:


But the intent wasn't to cause a tragedy, it was to get a stupid bit they could play and get a little publicity.

Then they should be congratulated, they aimed to fool someone whom quite possibly would lose their job and get publicity.
They got the publicity, and the job is up for grabs.

quote:

I don't think for a second they honestly thought they'd get through, they were probably hoping to play on the responses of the receptionist. If people want to call that a thoughtless prank, that's fine. But this idea that they're responsible for a death is equally thoughtless.

If they hadn't made the call would the nurse be dead? Yes there are other circumstances which may have contributed to the ultimate result, but without their actions this wouldn't have happened today and that's what everyone is talking about.
I hope they enjoy their fame, it came at a huge cost.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 8/12/2012 12:05:15 AM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 43
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:07:52 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54574
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I can understand why people would be concerned about some of the stupid and frankly vile stuff that's been aimed at the DJs who perpetrated it, but I don't think that's any reason to mitigate their responsibility for their own prank.



I'm not. I'm saying they don't deserve all the blame. And the fact that people are more than willing to give the hospital a pass just suggests to me they want their outrage and they don't care about proportion.



And I think it's down to the active vs passive thing. These people actively wanted to cause sensation and actively chose to do something that could hurt and embarass people. I think it's natural to find that harder to forgive than incompetence.



Djs looking to shock on one hand, serious failings in hospital security on another. And it's really the djs who deserve all the blame here? There's no urgent need for security to be addressed, to look into how this happened, to examine why the nurse was even put in the position in the first place?



I think they'll probably already have done that, don't you? And that's probably why the nurses weren't disciplined. The family have also already said they didn't raise a complaint to the hospital.



I'm talking about the internet response from certain people, which is tying itself in knots trying to show a sense of moral superiority against the djs, but refusing to recognise the equal responsibility of the hospital in this situation. If there's genuinely a feeling that the prank calls are a form of bullying, how does the rabid responses of some on this situation make them any better?

quote:

I don't think it will take much examination anyway. They didn't have a receptionist as it was 5.30 which probably means it works pretty much like most hospitals. The phone will ring for ages and if anyone's passing (and the stories refer to her as doing so) they'll answer it. Half 5 in the morning, near end of shift (unless private hospitals have weird shifts that aren't like the NHS which I don't believe to the case).


But why don't they have a receptionist given the nature of the patient? Why aren't all calls diverted straight to the royal security team? These aren't questions I'm seeing asked, I'm just seeing this DJS ARE EVIL!!!!!! response, which to me seems both completely unbalanced and counter-productive. Why aren't the media being taken to task for building this up so much? Give the djs shit, I have no problem with that, I just have a problem with everyone else getting an easy ride and them getting all the hatred for this.

quote:

It's an admirable one-man fight for balance but, personally, I think intent more than tips the scale. The hospital screwed up, they didn't deliberately set out to do anything. The radio station was deliberate.


But the intent wasn't to cause a tragedy, it was to get a stupid bit they could play and get a little publicity. I don't think for a second they honestly thought they'd get through, they were probably hoping to play on the responses of the receptionist. If people want to call that a thoughtless prank, that's fine. But this idea that they're responsible for a death is equally thoughtless.




But as I said earlier - the lack of care in this kind of prank, the idea that you can do what you want to people or some people deserve it if you get a bit of publicity out of them - hasn't it always been inevitable, as it's simple bullying, that something would/will again go awry?

They're responsible for their own actions. Their own actions are, IMO, despicable. They were despicable before this lady died. Like Steffols above - I just don't get how that head works.

And maybe that's it. I just don't understand why someone would do that. Simple incompetence I can understand. But the motivation, the callousness, the way a head works to come up with this idea in the first place? That I despise. 

Do you really think that someone deliberately setting out to do something it morally equivalent to incompetence/a mistake? Or is it really more that you're reacting, understandably, to the torrent of abuse being directed to one side and it's that that's making you queasy more than anything? And I know you're letting them off, you've made clear it's balance you're arguing for.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 44
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:12:13 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
Well what with you calling for them never to be allowed to work in radio again and refusal to attribute any blame anywhere other than the djs you seemed a little outraged.

No I didn't I said I hoped they never worked in radio again.
So what you are now saying is that you decided I was outraged to suit your argument so you could call me on it.

quote:


Yet you're perfectly happy to call for the djs not to be allowed to work in radio again. Oh of course, I forgot. They were completely to blame.

It wasn't a honest mistake, it was a deliberate act.


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 45
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:13:21 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

I've been fairly shocked by this story, and I have to say Rawls I can't agree with your stance. If (and it is still an if, it would still be premature to draw conclusions at this stage even as apparent as it seems) it turns out this nurses committed suicide as a result of this prank call I fail to see how responsibility lies at her (or the hospitals) door rather than the prank callers. Blaming lack of procedural security is perilously close to a Squidward defence. A woman was hoodwinked into breaching sensitive information about a very famous woman. She then may have committed suicide as a result. Where, if we are looking for blame, does it lie? With her? That seems cold to say the least. There is an element of victim blame associated with this that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable, and while the DJ's aren't directly responsible for this woman's death, passing the buck to failures in hospital security seems very misguided. If you were the designated driver and someone spikes your drink and you had an accident, is it your fault? Or the fault of the person who spiked your drink?

The bottom line is, if you play a prank that causes shit, it's usually is your fault.


I'm not blaming her though. I'm blaming the hospital. And yes, I do think an organisation that has taken on responsibility for a patient's safety while under their care has the lion's share of the blame to take. There wasn't a proper receptionist on duty. Why not? Why was a nurse having to take time out of her schedule to answer a phone that wasn't her responsibility? Why wasn't there a strict level of security put in place that said that any calls had to be properly verified and have that information given to all staff? It's more misguided to me to say that someone making a prank call deserves all the responsibility rather than asking how it was allowed to happen. If the hospital weren't going to discipline the nurse, she obviously didn't violate a procedural code. So why not? You have a patient who has to have a high level of security, why isn't as simple as security clearance having to be obtained before any information at all is given about that patient? How is that not relevant?

quote:

Where, if we are looking for blame, does it lie? With her?


For her suicide? I don't really think it's fair to blame anyone. But if people will insist on laying blame, then you might start with the djs who made the prank call, but you'd also have to include the hospital who didn't have strict procedures in place and the media who kept this going after the fact.

quote:

If you were the designated driver and someone spikes your drink and you had an accident, is it your fault? Or the fault of the person who spiked your drink?


That's a completely different situation though. There's an intent there to cause harm to the spiked person. There's no harmless reason for spiking someone's drink.

(in reply to superdan)
Post #: 46
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:15:21 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
That's a completely different situation though. There's an intent there to cause harm to the spiked person. There's no harmless reason for spiking someone's drink.

There's a harmless reason for trying to get someone to disclose personal information you shouldn't be told for you to report to the world?
You get to mock someone and laugh at them for their ignorance and highlight for the world to see? All good harmless fun.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 8/12/2012 12:17:35 AM >


_____________________________

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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 47
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:19:32 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
I'm talking about the internet response from certain people, which is tying itself in knots trying to show a sense of moral superiority against the djs, but refusing to recognise the equal responsibility of the hospital in this situation. If there's genuinely a feeling that the prank calls are a form of bullying, how does the rabid responses of some on this situation make them any better?

The internet posters are commenting directly about the public actions of these individuals. Actions which the DJs were more than happy to enjoy the notoriety yesterday. A minority will always go too far, however you comparison just doesn't work.



And the ones who go too far turn it into bullying.

quote:

Because the DJs are ultimately responsible, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp.


I don't agree, and the sight of those running to throw the responsibility for the death at their feet is rather sickening. Especially when they're claiming to do it out of a sense of morality.

quote:

If they hadn't made the call would the nurse be dead? Yes there are other circumstances which may have contributed to the ultimate result, but without their actions this wouldn't have happened today and that's what everyone is talking about.


And those people who are willing to dismiss the other circumstances just to blame two people who obviously didn't intend for this to happen are rather ghoulish, if you ask me. Like I've already pointed out, I have no problem with the djs getting their share of the blame, I just think it's troubling they get all the blame from people trying to prove how much they care/morally superior they are.

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 48
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:21:25 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
A point I think you've made over, and over, and over again.

Others seem to disagree with you.

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 49
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:24:18 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8220
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
I'm not blaming her though. I'm blaming the hospital. And yes, I do think an organisation that has taken on responsibility for a patient's safety while under their care has the lion's share of the blame to take. There wasn't a proper receptionist on duty. Why not? Why was a nurse having to take time out of her schedule to answer a phone that wasn't her responsibility? Why wasn't there a strict level of security put in place that said that any calls had to be properly verified and have that information given to all staff? It's more misguided to me to say that someone making a prank call deserves all the responsibility rather than asking how it was allowed to happen. If the hospital weren't going to discipline the nurse, she obviously didn't violate a procedural code. So why not? You have a patient who has to have a high level of security, why isn't as simple as security clearance having to be obtained before any information at all is given about that patient? How is that not relevant?


Sorry Rawls, I simply cannot agree with this. I cannot see how this is the responsibility of the hospital above the DJ's. I just can't. Whatever failures the hospital may be responsible for, they didn't deliberately seek to obtain sensitive information by unethical means (and comedic purposes doesn't excuse anything in this instance). The staff involved behaved in good faith, no matter how erroneous that may have turned out. There is only one element that behaved disgracefully, and you are excusing them.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 50
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:27:21 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Do you really think that someone deliberately setting out to do something it morally equivalent to incompetence/a mistake? Or is it really more that you're reacting, understandably, to the torrent of abuse being directed to one side and it's that that's making you queasy more than anything? And I know you're letting them off, you've made clear it's balance you're arguing for.



Here's the thing, I'm not blaming the nurse. I'm blaming the hospital for not having procedure hammered in to all its employees that a high security patient comes with the risk that people will try and breach that security. The fact that the hospital have said they weren't going to discipline her means she obviously didn't violate their codes. People can get as outraged as they like that the call was made in the first place, but I think there should be even more outrage that security is that lax. And that problem ultimately rests with the people in charge, not with someone answering a phone. If it was her fault, she'd have been disciplined.

What absolutely sickens me is the way people are trying to blame these djs for the death. That to me is ultimately just as callous as making a prank call. Especially when it comes in the form of a morally superior mob. To me, a measured, thoughtful response would look at the initial call, the failings in hospital security, the media response, and the response of us as observers. If people really want to lay out blame for the death, it goes far beyond the initial phone call.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 51
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:28:39 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

A point I think you've made over, and over, and over again.



I'm sorry Bob, I didn't mean to step into your territory of endlessly repeating the same old stuff over and over.

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 52
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:32:46 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
I'm not blaming her though. I'm blaming the hospital. And yes, I do think an organisation that has taken on responsibility for a patient's safety while under their care has the lion's share of the blame to take. There wasn't a proper receptionist on duty. Why not? Why was a nurse having to take time out of her schedule to answer a phone that wasn't her responsibility? Why wasn't there a strict level of security put in place that said that any calls had to be properly verified and have that information given to all staff? It's more misguided to me to say that someone making a prank call deserves all the responsibility rather than asking how it was allowed to happen. If the hospital weren't going to discipline the nurse, she obviously didn't violate a procedural code. So why not? You have a patient who has to have a high level of security, why isn't as simple as security clearance having to be obtained before any information at all is given about that patient? How is that not relevant?


Sorry Rawls, I simply cannot agree with this. I cannot see how this is the responsibility of the hospital above the DJ's. I just can't. Whatever failures the hospital may be responsible for, they didn't deliberately seek to obtain sensitive information by unethical means (and comedic purposes doesn't excuse anything in this instance). The staff involved behaved in good faith, no matter how erroneous that may have turned out. There is only one element that behaved disgracefully, and you are excusing them.



But they are the ones with a duty to protect that sensitive information, and they failed. Is it really asking that much that everyone pointing their finger at the djs stop for a minute and ask how the hell they managed to get away with it?

(in reply to superdan)
Post #: 53
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:33:45 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54574
Joined: 1/10/2005
Can I just add here, I reworded something and I must have moved the 'not' above - I know you're not letting them off. Sorry, that made what I posted sound the opposite of what I meant.

I still don't agree. Busy, picking up phones - people aren't robots, they don't follow drills all the time. But I think this is where we're at stalemate - I still can't equate passive incompetence with a deliberate act. It might be a bit different if it had all been live and they couldn't reflect - but the station sat and made a decision to go ahead of it, so they don't even have the excuse of the heat of getting through affecting their, already flawed, judgement.

The hospital failed in procedures. But those who bully and pull pranks take their victim as they find them. And this is how they found this victim. And they need to live with that. Will it make the next stupid DJ think before pulling a stunt? Sadly I doubt it.




_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 54
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:33:46 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
And I'm not excusing them, btw. I'm just saying the problem goes far beyond the fact that the prank call was made in the first place.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 55
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:35:19 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
Here's the thing, I'm not blaming the nurse. I'm blaming the hospital for not having procedure hammered in to all its employees that a high security patient comes with the risk that people will try and breach that security. The fact that the hospital have said they weren't going to discipline her means she obviously didn't violate their codes. People can get as outraged as they like that the call was made in the first place, but I think there should be even more outrage that security is that lax. And that problem ultimately rests with the people in charge, not with someone answering a phone. If it was her fault, she'd have been disciplined.



Not at all, people can make honest mistakes in their job even if it break a policy. You don't have to discipline someone for simply making a mistake, unless you work for a total twat of course.

What harm was done by her giving out the details she did?
Was there a risk to patient safety?
Was there a complaint made on the back of her actions?
Was she genuinely sorry for her mistake?
Was it likely to be something that she would do again?
Was she the sort of person who needed to be disciplined officially, or would she respond better to other means?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
But they are the ones with a duty to protect that sensitive information, and they failed. Is it really asking that much that everyone pointing their finger at the djs stop for a minute and ask how the hell they managed to get away with it?


Because no one cares about the information that was given out. Seeing as that isn't the issue here, we're looking towards what is the issue and that's the behavior of these two entertainers and the direct result of their actions.



< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 8/12/2012 12:37:56 AM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 56
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:36:14 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

A point I think you've made over, and over, and over again.



I'm sorry Bob, I didn't mean to step into your territory of endlessly repeating the same old stuff over and over.


You missed an over. Amateur.

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 57
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:37:39 AM   
Mister Coe

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 20/10/2012
Wow... I kicked the hornets nest here, didn't I, on my original post...

My summary, leaving aside all the various opinions and moralities flying around...

The DJ's did a dumb thing, thinking it was just a bit of a laugh...

The hospital were utterly negligent in their security policies...

The call came through to a person who, for whatever reason, couldn't handle the resulting pressure...

That person killed herself.

There's no clear blame here, just an awful chain of events with a tragic ending.

_____________________________

Say what now?

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 58
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:39:33 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8038
Joined: 30/9/2005
Again, you seem to be in the minority.

A lot of people seem to think the DJs have a lot of blame attached to them in this matter.

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to Mister Coe)
Post #: 59
RE: Nurse commits suicide at King Edward Hospital... - 8/12/2012 12:40:45 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8220
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

But they are the ones with a duty to protect that sensitive information, and they failed. Is it really asking that much that everyone pointing their finger at the djs stop for a minute and ask how the hell they managed to get away with it?



It's perfectly valid to question how this was allowed to happen in the first place. But why did it happen? What precipitated it? And what has been the result? Isn't that the immediate issue?

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 60
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