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Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 8:22:12 AM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5993
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin
This is discgraceful. Whatever your view on the Abortion debate is, there was no chance of the baby surviving here and basically the law prevented the mother from surviving.

The Irish state just killed a perfectly innocent woman. No matter how you look at it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 9:04:36 AM   
sanchia


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From: Norwich
It does seem extreme circumstances in that as the report states the process of a miscarry was occurring and the child would not survive. It is an awful thing to read about and if the "This is a Catholic country" quote is correct (although probably out of context) it seems a very brutal approach to the situation.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 9:04:37 AM   
MOTH

 

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From: Sittin' on the dock of the bay
unfortunately, Keyser, the poor woman and her family will get forgotten in the flurry of finger-pointing, blame-shifting and doublespeak that ensues, not to mention the people who'll come out and say it was God's will, and other shite like that. sickens me hole.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 9:08:19 AM   
elab49


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One reported comment under the story is along the lines of if she didn't want a baby she shouldn't have vaginal sex. Not even bothering to read and discover it was a miscarriage gone badly wrong and the doctors - who should be ashamed to call themselves such frankly because they don't give a damn for the precepts of the profession - refused to carry out a procedure that could have saved her life.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 9:52:43 AM   
The Hooded Man


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This is outrageous. If a doctor is prepared to put their religious beliefs before the good of the patient then they shouldn't be a doctor.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 10:05:31 AM   
sharkboy


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From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

It does seem extreme circumstances in that as the report states the process of a miscarry was occurring and the child would not survive. It is an awful thing to read about and if the "This is a Catholic country" quote is correct (although probably out of context) it seems a very brutal approach to the situation.


I was horrified to hear about this case on the way to work this morning.  Unfortunately, the tragedy of the loss will (as Moth suggests) be lost in the subsequent attempts to shift the blame.  Personally I think the medical professional (and I use that term in its loosest possible connotation) who denied the abortion should be facing manslaughter charges as their action directly contributed to the death.  If denying the wishes of a woman and her husband on religious grounds isn't at least criminal endangerment, I don't know what is.  And surely the OBGYN profession shouldn't need remined that "first do no harm" applies to the person they're treating, not the fetus they're miscarrying.

At the very least, maybe someone in the Dail will now have the balls to get legislation in place to prevent such a tragedy from happening again, something that 20 years of governments haven't managed to do despite the landmark court ruling that allowed abortions to save the mother's life.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 10:23:08 AM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

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Enter David Quinn, John Waters, et al.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 10:43:54 AM   
blackduck


Posts: 1601
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Shocking and sad case, maybe now there can be a proper and open debate about the role abortion should play here and we can stop using our proximity to the UK as a "solution" to the problem.

As regard to what the doctor could have done, does anyone know if abortion was a legal option in this case? From the tiny bit I've read it sounds like he felt the fact that there was a heartbeat meant abortion wasn't an option available to him.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 11:02:52 AM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

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I'm not sure if it was the doctor's personal beliefs re Catholicism that were an issue, but 'this is a Catholic country' is one of those meaningless stock arguments thrown around by certain people.

Anyway, condolences to the woman's family.

< Message edited by Erlenmeyer Flask -- 14/11/2012 11:03:22 AM >


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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 11:22:40 AM   
DancingClown


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Simply mind-boggling. It's like the fucking Dark Ages or something.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 12:01:48 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18000
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
An interesting article on the subject.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 12:52:21 PM   
Sinatra

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Simply mind-boggling. It's like the fucking Dark Ages or something.



Sums up my reaction...

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 12:53:23 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5993
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin
From what I know of the law and also of the case it appears that the Doctors position is that legally they couldn't terminate due to a Foetal heartbeat, they had expected that to stop after a few hours but the woman in question was in the words of her husband "in agony" for three days. This is a worrying development, the rigidity of the law has basically prevented a presumably consuencious Doctor from carrying out the correct treatement.

As Sharky said it's not as if there isn't legislation on the books already as a result of the X case but the current law and the failure of a number of Governments to enact the legislative changes needed for 20 years has led directly to the woman dying.

It is without any hyperbole the fault of the Irish state that this woman died. Whilst it will mean nothing to the her widow I hope he sues the country for every fucking penny he can get. It's just disgusting.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 12:55:05 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5993
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

An interesting article on the subject.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history


Also the picture in thsi article sums up part of the problem. Look at the woman in the front with the sign, unless she gets her hands on a fucking time machine she never need worry about abortion in any event.

I really hope Labour tackle this head on.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 1:50:43 PM   
Woger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Simply mind-boggling. It's like the fucking Dark Ages or something.


Almost, it's Ireland.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 2:02:50 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18000
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

An interesting article on the subject.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history


Also the picture in thsi article sums up part of the problem. Look at the woman in the front with the sign, unless she gets her hands on a fucking time machine she never need worry about abortion in any event.

I really hope Labour tackle this head on.


One other thing this case shows, that sign is an outright lie.


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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 3:22:26 PM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

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Report on the questionable background of one of the anti-abortion groups here.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 6:11:24 PM   
Skiba


Posts: 4328
Joined: 24/11/2005
From: London

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

An interesting article on the subject.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history


Also the picture in thsi article sums up part of the problem. Look at the woman in the front with the sign, unless she gets her hands on a fucking time machine she never need worry about abortion in any event.

I really hope Labour tackle this head on.


One other thing this case shows, that sign is an outright lie.


I'd love to know how they come round to the "fact" that they're safer without abortion...don't think I've got the energy to read any of their research on it though.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 6:42:47 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
On another forum I post on one of those fruitloops who believes, actually believes, the book of Genesis offered up as support for the Irish situation a video of an abortion. His point, he said, was to make others more fully informed. A believer of Genesis! Completely unaware of the irony.

The way some religious people are given to see attempts to prevent their beliefs being imposed on non-believers as an attack on their beliefs is beyond tiresome.





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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 14/11/2012 8:49:50 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8043
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quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

On another forum I post on one of those fruitloops who believes, actually believes, the book of Genesis offered up as support for the Irish situation a video of an abortion. His point, he said, was to make others more fully informed. A believer of Genesis! Completely unaware of the irony.

The way some religious people are given to see attempts to prevent their beliefs being imposed on non-believers as an attack on their beliefs is beyond tiresome.






Well said.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 17/11/2012 12:49:58 AM   
musht


Posts: 1811
Joined: 21/1/2009
From: Oireland
I think, but I'm not entirely sure, that the hospital were in the wrong legally. It may not have been put into legislation (which it absolutely should have at this stage) but because we've had 2 referenda and both have passed the hospital had no right to refuse as it's in the constitution. I'd have to more research.

< Message edited by musht -- 17/11/2012 1:00:29 AM >


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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 27/11/2012 1:08:19 PM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

Posts: 727
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OPINION : Women must be allowed to make informed decisions about crisis pregnancies

A few days before the 1983 referendum that gave us article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, a heartbroken man spoke out. Brendan Hodgers described the death of his wife Sheila in an Irish hospital.

She had cancer but was taken off all drugs and treatments when she became pregnant because they might harm or kill the foetus. Mr Hodgers said that with his wife screaming in agony, he asked for her to be given an abortion. He got no reply. After giving birth to a premature baby girl who died immediately, Sheila Hodgers died.

He revealed his personal tragedy in the hope that it would remind Irish people that sometimes a woman needs an abortion and that the amendment could cost women’s lives. In the same year, an Irish man was convicted of the rape of two girls aged 14 and 16, both of whom had given birth to babies.

The architects of the amendment swept aside all such sorrowful facts. Ireland was a Catholic country, they insisted. Feminists who said they wanted contraception, women’s refuges, rape crisis centres, support for single mothers and divorce, were out to destroy traditional Irish values. Abortion must be banned in all circumstances. Leading campaigner John Reilly warned that those who opposed the amendment were opportunists whose strategy would be to spread confusion by arguing for abortion in cases of rape, incest, alleged “life and death” situations, and in the case of foetal abnormality.

The counter-strategy was to convince the people that abortion was, in the words of Fine Gael TD Alice Glenn “a slaughter of the innocents”.

The Catholic bishop Joseph Cassidy said in the full confidence of his moral authority that the most dangerous place for a child to be in the world was in a woman’s womb.

The zealots didn’t get the wording they originally wanted. Women were to be given equal rights with the foetus. However, they were confident when the amendment was passed that Ireland was the safest place in the world to be unborn.


---

Back in the day...http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1126/1224327092896.html

Also, oddly, Richard Branson pitches in. http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/the-day-we-were-arrested-for-selling-condoms-in-dublin

< Message edited by Erlenmeyer Flask -- 27/11/2012 1:09:08 PM >


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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 5/12/2012 12:56:24 PM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

Posts: 727
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Some of the pro-life folk at a protest yesterday.



More here.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 18/12/2012 7:48:23 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5993
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1218/breaking3.html

ABOUT. FUCKING. TIME.

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RE: Woman dies after refused Abortion - 18/12/2012 9:20:54 PM   
Erlenmeyer Flask

 

Posts: 727
Joined: 30/9/2005
Indeed.

However, I'd imagine that the scope legislation will be kept as narrow as possible. Now we await the blitz from the pro-life camp. It will be unreal.

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