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RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games

 
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RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:10:19 AM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 7993
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

^EDIT: I revisited KOTOR 1 a while back and honestly got bored after an hour. I also got bored of the first Mass Effect after a couple of hours. What I'm trying to say is I think Bioware aren't really all that exciting or good. So not having KOTOR on your list is good by me.


You're in danger of entering Dev territory here you heretic. KOTOR is an amazing game and I still think the first Mass Effect is the best game of this generation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

when the list is completed, what will be cited as the most heinous non-Dizzy exclusion? We can make 'top fifty games not included' lists.


My favourite (and therefore the best, obvs) was Fantasy World Dizzy. A fantastic game.


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RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:11:07 AM   
Olaf


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Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
Top Five Non-Egg-Related Games That Better Be On This List Or I'll Beat Yo Ass

1. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
2. Wave Race 64
3. The Simpsons: Bart vs. the Space Mutants
4. Parappa the Rapper
5. Killer7

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Post #: 242
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:11:26 AM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

when the list is completed, what will be cited as the most heinous non-Dizzy exclusion?


Quest for the Golden Eggcup.


Do you only play games that involve eggs in some fashion? (still, it's probably a better reason than 'I played through the first two Mass Effect games, so there's nothing that can go wrong'.)


quote:

Btw, I do also like games that aren't related to eggs.




This thread has just put me on Spectrum nostalgia. There was one football game that I would spend hours on, basically, you did fuck all throughout the game, just watched the clock go by, unless you got a random chance to score. At which point you'd get a picture of a goalkeeper and a goals, and a needle going back and forth to determine the angle of your shot. The higher the league you got to, the faster the needle went. When you were ready to shoot, you pushed a button. Some games, you wouldn't even get a chance to score.

Take that Fifa.

There was also that Spitting Image beat em-up where you could have Thatcher fight The Pope.

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Post #: 243
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:16:35 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
Have you played this? It sounds remarkably familiar to what you're describing. http://www.mousebreaker.com/games/newstarsoccer/playgame (it also consumes more time than it really should.)

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Post #: 244
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:16:36 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


Posts: 3544
Joined: 24/10/2007
From: The Valley of the Wind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Top Five Non-Egg-Related Games That Better Be On This List Or I'll Beat Yo Ass

1. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
2. Wave Race 64
3. The Simpsons: Bart vs. the Space Mutants
4. Parappa the Rapper
5. Killer7


Wave Race and Parappa are excellent, but I think only Parappa would stand a chance for the list. It's on my weird list though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

There was also that Spitting Image beat em-up where you could have Thatcher fight The Pope.



I need this in my life.

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Post #: 245
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:33:54 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

^EDIT: I revisited KOTOR 1 a while back and honestly got bored after an hour. I also got bored of the first Mass Effect after a couple of hours. What I'm trying to say is I think Bioware aren't really all that exciting or good. So not having KOTOR on your list is good by me.


You're in danger of entering Dev territory here you heretic. KOTOR is an amazing game and I still think the first Mass Effect is the best game of this generation.



Steady on, I'm not saying they rested on their laurels or haven't innovated or anything objectively inaccurate. I just find the combat tedious, the writing half-baked and asinine, the romance hamfisted and the stories rote. I also object on a principled level to games that prompt me with small essays of text so that I can 'better understand' the world or the narrative or whatever (it's one of the reasons I quite dislike Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance). There's some good comic stuff in KOTOR and they understand their worlds well, though, they absolutely feel lived-in and perpetual.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

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Post #: 246
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 4:08:44 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

^EDIT: I revisited KOTOR 1 a while back and honestly got bored after an hour. I also got bored of the first Mass Effect after a couple of hours. What I'm trying to say is I think Bioware aren't really all that exciting or good. So not having KOTOR on your list is good by me.


You're in danger of entering Dev territory here you heretic. KOTOR is an amazing game and I still think the first Mass Effect is the best game of this generation.



Steady on, I'm not saying they rested on their laurels or haven't innovated or anything objectively inaccurate. I just find the combat tedious, the writing half-baked and asinine, the romance hamfisted and the stories rote. I also object on a principled level to games that prompt me with small essays of text so that I can 'better understand' the world or the narrative or whatever (it's one of the reasons I quite dislike Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance). There's some good comic stuff in KOTOR and they understand their worlds well, though, they absolutely feel lived-in and perpetual.



B-but muh Deus Ex

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Post #: 247
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 4:18:31 AM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
Oh great, I go out to have a life and I miss this.

quote:

See, this is showing your argument up for what it is - you simply don't like what they did do. That's totally fine. But when you accuse them of "not doing anything interesting with the ideas", be they aesthetic or mechanic or narrative, that's you saying that you personally don't find their changes to be successful. The aesthetic shift between Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, for example, was massive and unexpected - you can absolutely dislike it, and many did to the point that it was genuinely controversial, but to say it doesn't constitute a 'shift' in what Zelda was aesthetically is absurd. They're regularly mixing up mechanics and aesthetics while trying to keep faithful to the core of the game, and if you don't like that, it's fine, but don't pretend they're stagnating and creatively bankrupt because of it.


BUT THAT'S THE THING, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are some of the very few games in the series to do this and there's been a good number of games in that franchise. Wind Waker, interesting art style aside and the sailing, it still Zelda being samey Zelda. Majora's Mask might have kept the same aesthetic, but it had a change in gameplay and plot function that is not only unique to the franchise but most of gaming, Problem is, Zelda has very rarely done this and there are a lot of games in that franchise.

quote:

That's a hilarious joke bro, fucking side-splitting


Oh shit, that's a mistake of mine. I mis-stated that and wanted to say it was mostly Zelda in repitition and not Mario. With Mario I just don't really like Mario's aesthetic even after all this year, but that has still to do only with aesthetic.

It should not shock you that I tend to not proofread unless what I'm writing doesn't involve my future work or university, you abhorrent human being.

quote:

See, the problem I have with what you're saying is that it's still an uneven standard you're looking for - the sailing is hardly a tiny feature in TWW, it's a completely different method of transportation to any other game in the series and brings with it a completely new setting (there's also the new art style it used, when you're referring to large-scale aesthetic shifts). I haven't played it myself, but Skyward Sword has a different stylistic approach again along with an integration of Wii controls (regarding the similarity of its setting and stuff - I think it can get away with being derivative this time since it's the 25th anniversary release, a la Skyfall homaging the previous films in the series).


Yes, but that's still only TWW doing this and others remaining still similar, TWW even remaining very similar in gameplay. Skyward Sword is the one I had the chance to play, it's still bloody Zelda and I don't have a good relationship with the Wii controller or gameplay around it (I have many a recurring nightmare involving attempting to play RE4 on the Wii), so it just didn't work for me. My sister loved it more then Ocarina of Time if that helps though.

quote:

I just can't see how you can accept incremental changes to a successful formula in a series like Total War, but the same incremental changes to a successful formula in a series you don't like isn't treated the same. And there are incremental changes in each game, if you play them. I also can't see how you figure the series has 'gone stale' when the only one you're interested in playing is MM. Look, even Ryan Gosling is looking at you derisively and thinking 'bitch, please'


Yeah, it is preference with one game I've enjoyed a lot and others I haven't. And seriously, it's just MM and in terms of art syle, TWW. That's been 12 and 10 years respectively and not the only games in the series to be released in the series by then, and the only truly different one being MM for the gameplay.

quote:

You're in danger of entering Dev territory here you heretic. KOTOR is an amazing game and I still think the first Mass Effect is the best game of this generation.


Bullshit, I loved KOTOR. Don't put me in the room with that thing.

(I didn't play Mass Effect though, I'm very ashamed about this but then again I'm kinda scared of spending on hundred hours on a game only for it to have a shit ending in the third one that kinda betrays the last 100 hours)

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quote:


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Post #: 248
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 5:00:01 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

Yeah, it is preference with one game I've enjoyed a lot and others I haven't.


This is all you had to say. I mean, hell, you discard the shift in mechanics represented by Skyward Sword because "it just didn't work for me." You won't even mention the move from Link to the Past to Ocarina of Time, the multiplayer-based gameplay of Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures, or the sizable changes made in Spirit Tracks (while still retaining the third-person dungeon-crawling of Zelda games past). An entirely new aesthetic approach (that strongly informs the new way the classic Zelda story is told) and the introduction of a whole new way of moving in the game - an entire new mechanic - are written off because you don't like the third-person actioning.

It's fine that you don't like it. It's fine that the Legend of Zelda formula within which these changes are made bores you. But you've said the Zelda games are just the same things over and over again and yet, to make your point you've had to make so many concessions and you've had to shift the goalposts so many times in this post alone - "Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are some of the very few games in the series to do this", "Wind Waker, interesting art style and the sailing aside", "I don't have a good relationship with the Wii controller or gameplay around it, so it just didn't work for me" - that it's hard to take your argument as persuasive.

quote:

B-but muh Deus Ex


It's sitting in my Steam library waiting to be played. I personally feel that, given the advantage of an interactive medium through which to tell your stories, there's something profoundly cheap and lazy about stopping the game and sitting the player down in front of a block of non-interactive text so that you can make them read about the backstory (or, in KH:DDD, read to know what's going on). I have a similar problem with cutscenes, but given video games are a more visual medium than a written medium, I can understand them. The best narrative-based games are those that tell their story in a visual, largely interactive way though (Half-Life 2, Beyond Good & Evil - IRIS Network M-disks aside, the Portal series all come to mind).

EDIT: For the record, I have the same problem with audio logs that are integral to understanding the world or the story.

< Message edited by Pigeon Army -- 9/12/2012 5:09:22 AM >


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

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Post #: 249
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 5:29:35 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


Posts: 3544
Joined: 24/10/2007
From: The Valley of the Wind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

It's sitting in my Steam library waiting to be played. I personally feel that, given the advantage of an interactive medium through which to tell your stories, there's something profoundly cheap and lazy about stopping the game and sitting the player down in front of a block of non-interactive text so that you can make them read about the backstory (or, in KH:DDD, read to know what's going on). I have a similar problem with cutscenes, but given video games are a more visual medium than a written medium, I can understand them. The best narrative-based games are those that tell their story in a visual, largely interactive way though (Half-Life 2, Beyond Good & Evil - IRIS Network M-disks aside, the Portal series all come to mind).

EDIT: For the record, I have the same problem with audio logs that are integral to understanding the world or the story.


I can understand where you're coming from in a way, but if the game is interesting enough to me, massive cut-scenes (MGS) and audio-logs (Bioshock) don't bother me. I'd prefer if gigantic slabs of text and back-story were optional though in case the game isn't all the appealing.

And both Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Human Revolution are great. They'll probably be mashed into a double entry position though because I only played a couple of hours of the original Deus Ex but I really loved it, while I've finished DEHR nearly twice.

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Post #: 250
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 5:44:11 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
Shit boss battles prevent HR from attaining the greatness of the original for me. I don't think I've actually finished it as a result, even though I liked the rest.

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Post #: 251
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 6:01:18 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


Posts: 3544
Joined: 24/10/2007
From: The Valley of the Wind
quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Shit boss battles prevent HR from attaining the greatness of the original for me. I don't think I've actually finished it as a result, even though I liked the rest.


I will agree the boss battles were pretty bad but the feel of the game and the soundtrack were absolute winners. In fact it would be one of my favourite games of last year.

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Post #: 252
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 6:19:32 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
Usually one component of a game like that wouldn't put me off as much as it does with HR, it's just that a) they're REALLY shit; and b) they compound the problem with the way they throw out all of the game's primary gameplay characteristics and what makes it a good game in the first place (the freedom of choice etc). It was probably a good enough to warrant finishing so I'll get round to it at some point, but so bloody annoying.

Portal 2 was my favourite from last year, though Skyrim ran it close (I realise how boring these choices are, but they were really good). One game I didn't get round to til this year was Rayman Origins, which was the glorious sidescrolling multiplayer platformer New Super Mario Bros wishes it was. I don't think I've had as much fun with any other game this year.

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Post #: 253
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 6:27:09 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


Posts: 3544
Joined: 24/10/2007
From: The Valley of the Wind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Usually one component of a game like that wouldn't put me off as much as it does with HR, it's just that a) they're REALLY shit; and b) they compound the problem with the way they throw out all of the game's primary gameplay characteristics and what makes it a good game in the first place (the freedom of choice etc). It was probably a good enough to warrant finishing so I'll get round to it at some point, but so bloody annoying.



I can't argue with any of that. The rest of the game does pay off so well on having the freedom of choice that the boss battles feel even more out of place and clunky.

Portal 2 would probably be my favourite of last year, at least the one I personally like the most. Skyrim, L.A. Noire, Deus Ex and Uncharted 3 (which I just completed for the first time about a week ago) would be up there too.

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Post #: 254
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 6:30:45 AM   
directorscut


Posts: 10881
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

It's sitting in my Steam library waiting to be played. I personally feel that, given the advantage of an interactive medium through which to tell your stories, there's something profoundly cheap and lazy about stopping the game and sitting the player down in front of a block of non-interactive text so that you can make them read about the backstory (or, in KH:DDD, read to know what's going on). I have a similar problem with cutscenes, but given video games are a more visual medium than a written medium, I can understand them. The best narrative-based games are those that tell their story in a visual, largely interactive way though (Half-Life 2, Beyond Good & Evil - IRIS Network M-disks aside, the Portal series all come to mind).

EDIT: For the record, I have the same problem with audio logs that are integral to understanding the world or the story.


Planescape Torment completely, utterly and irrefutably invalidates this opinion.


< Message edited by directorscut -- 9/12/2012 6:31:30 AM >


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Post #: 255
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 6:53:14 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

It's sitting in my Steam library waiting to be played. I personally feel that, given the advantage of an interactive medium through which to tell your stories, there's something profoundly cheap and lazy about stopping the game and sitting the player down in front of a block of non-interactive text so that you can make them read about the backstory (or, in KH:DDD, read to know what's going on). I have a similar problem with cutscenes, but given video games are a more visual medium than a written medium, I can understand them. The best narrative-based games are those that tell their story in a visual, largely interactive way though (Half-Life 2, Beyond Good & Evil - IRIS Network M-disks aside, the Portal series all come to mind).

EDIT: For the record, I have the same problem with audio logs that are integral to understanding the world or the story.


Planescape Torment completely, utterly and irrefutably invalidates this opinion.



You're going to have to be more than typically glib, because I've only played a little bit of Planescape and that was a long time ago.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

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Post #: 256
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 1:52:20 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7914
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From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria
The first conclusion is obviously built on shaky foundations, and it demonstrates why RCR's critique is muddled - 'if you have a problem with modern games not being fun, why is your modern game with modern gameplay trappings fun?'. The latter conclusion - which is what I think they're driving at, personally - is what my previous post is based around, and why I think the game falls into a trap of fetishising its look, its retroness etc.
[/quote]

Not quite. RCR is a fun modern sandbox game with cracking gameplay and a retro-aesthetic gimmick. There is a right way of doing a 'fun' sandbox game and there is a wrong way. The limitations of a 2-D top down view work much better than the styling of a 3-D virtual reality that includes inane things such as playing pool in a bar, going to the gym, doing the ironing etc. in the downtime between missions. The Better Than Life point I make in the review is quite specific about the gimmicky approach of the modern masking sound gameplay. All sandbox environments have a consequence which is very samey missions; attempting to alleviate this tedium through real-life side-games unintentionally makes such titles even duller. RCR suffers less because the 2-D approach makes everything tight and compact (from the size of the environment to the simple plot machinations) and ends up with a frantic, fast-paced title that's very silly, fairly challenging and loads of fun. As such, the parody of RCR needs to be the antithesis of GTA to work, because it's not the look and style that's being critiqued. It's that important thing underneath the bonnet which keeps a game nicely ticking over and pointing at the ludicrous nature of getting your hair-cut as a dynamic gameplay element. Of course, if a Sensible Golf side-game was included in RCR then the parody would be complete. RCR is unrelentingly cynical, but that doesn't make it in any way less viable as a parody. If anything, from your suggestion Super Meat Boy just does it better with less implication to its true nature. You could probably play it without even recognising that its a critique of both older and modern gaming. You certainly don't get that from RCRs upfrontness.

Of course, much of this debate is also guided by one's exact definition of fun. Red Dead Redemption starts off brightly, but does get increasingly dull. The Sims is just fucking shit of the highest order - it's the game where fun goes to die. But then not all old games are great. Dizzy is not as good as everyone seems to be recalling for instance...



Great thread though Brooksy!

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Post #: 257
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 2:06:45 PM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 7993
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

The first conclusion is obviously built on shaky foundations, and it demonstrates why RCR's critique is muddled - 'if you have a problem with modern games not being fun, why is your modern game with modern gameplay trappings fun?'. The latter conclusion - which is what I think they're driving at, personally - is what my previous post is based around, and why I think the game falls into a trap of fetishising its look, its retroness etc.


Not quite. RCR is a fun modern sandbox game with cracking gameplay and a retro-aesthetic gimmick. There is a right way of doing a 'fun' sandbox game and there is a wrong way. The limitations of a 2-D top down view work much better than the styling of a 3-D virtual reality that includes inane things such as playing pool in a bar, going to the gym, doing the ironing etc. in the downtime between missions. The Better Than Life point I make in the review is quite specific about the gimmicky approach of the modern masking sound gameplay. All sandbox environments have a consequence which is very samey missions; attempting to alleviate this tedium through real-life side-games unintentionally makes such titles even duller. RCR suffers less because the 2-D approach makes everything tight and compact (from the size of the environment to the simple plot machinations) and ends up with a frantic, fast-paced title that's very silly, fairly challenging and loads of fun. As such, the parody of RCR needs to be the antithesis of GTA to work, because it's not the look and style that's being critiqued. It's that important thing underneath the bonnet which keeps a game nicely ticking over and pointing at the ludicrous nature of getting your hair-cut as a dynamic gameplay element. Of course, if a Sensible Golf side-game was included in RCR then the parody would be complete. RCR is unrelentingly cynical, but that doesn't make it in any way less viable as a parody. If anything, from your suggestion Super Meat Boy just does it better with less implication to its true nature. You could probably play it without even recognising that its a critique of both older and modern gaming. You certainly don't get that from RCRs upfrontness.

Of course, much of this debate is also guided by one's exact definition of fun. Red Dead Redemption starts off brightly, but does get increasingly dull. The Sims is just fucking shit of the highest order - it's the game where fun goes to die. But then not all old games are great. Dizzy is not as good as everyone seems to be recalling for instance...



Great thread though Brooksy!


Matter of opinion surely. I've played both Dizzy and Fantasy World Dizzy on an emulator in the last 12 months and enjoyed them both immensely.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 9/12/2012 2:07:30 PM >


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Post #: 258
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:13:57 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7914
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

The first conclusion is obviously built on shaky foundations, and it demonstrates why RCR's critique is muddled - 'if you have a problem with modern games not being fun, why is your modern game with modern gameplay trappings fun?'. The latter conclusion - which is what I think they're driving at, personally - is what my previous post is based around, and why I think the game falls into a trap of fetishising its look, its retroness etc.


Not quite. RCR is a fun modern sandbox game with cracking gameplay and a retro-aesthetic gimmick. There is a right way of doing a 'fun' sandbox game and there is a wrong way. The limitations of a 2-D top down view work much better than the styling of a 3-D virtual reality that includes inane things such as playing pool in a bar, going to the gym, doing the ironing etc. in the downtime between missions. The Better Than Life point I make in the review is quite specific about the gimmicky approach of the modern masking sound gameplay. All sandbox environments have a consequence which is very samey missions; attempting to alleviate this tedium through real-life side-games unintentionally makes such titles even duller. RCR suffers less because the 2-D approach makes everything tight and compact (from the size of the environment to the simple plot machinations) and ends up with a frantic, fast-paced title that's very silly, fairly challenging and loads of fun. As such, the parody of RCR needs to be the antithesis of GTA to work, because it's not the look and style that's being critiqued. It's that important thing underneath the bonnet which keeps a game nicely ticking over and pointing at the ludicrous nature of getting your hair-cut as a dynamic gameplay element. Of course, if a Sensible Golf side-game was included in RCR then the parody would be complete. RCR is unrelentingly cynical, but that doesn't make it in any way less viable as a parody. If anything, from your suggestion Super Meat Boy just does it better with less implication to its true nature. You could probably play it without even recognising that its a critique of both older and modern gaming. You certainly don't get that from RCRs upfrontness.

Of course, much of this debate is also guided by one's exact definition of fun. Red Dead Redemption starts off brightly, but does get increasingly dull. The Sims is just fucking shit of the highest order - it's the game where fun goes to die. But then not all old games are great. Dizzy is not as good as everyone seems to be recalling for instance...



Great thread though Brooksy!


Matter of opinion surely. I've played both Dizzy and Fantasy World Dizzy on an emulator in the last 12 months and enjoyed them both immensely.


Exactly (although it was more of a general point that I don't find all old games better than modern counterparts).


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Post #: 259
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:26:21 PM   
Deviation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

This is all you had to say. I mean, hell, you discard the shift in mechanics represented by Skyward Sword because "it just didn't work for me." You won't even mention the move from Link to the Past to Ocarina of Time, the multiplayer-based gameplay of Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures, or the sizable changes made in Spirit Tracks (while still retaining the third-person dungeon-crawling of Zelda games past). An entirely new aesthetic approach (that strongly informs the new way the classic Zelda story is told) and the introduction of a whole new way of moving in the game - an entire new mechanic - are written off because you don't like the third-person actioning.


It's less of a shift in mechanics and more of a way to incorporate the controls into the Wii controller. I see it no different from Resi 4 on the GC to Resi 4 on the Wii, only with a far more obnoxious controller telling me to imitate a slash. Oh and I've recognized the change from A Link to the Past Ocarina of Time, mostly by recognizing how fucking important and innovative that game was and that it was the last the series showed an incredible change.

Oh and I care very little for multiplayer (other then a few or simply just one exception). Also, Spirit Tracks? Wouldn't Phantom Hourglass be the truly great example since it had to incorporate the changes into the DS?

quote:

It's fine that you don't like it. It's fine that the Legend of Zelda formula within which these changes are made bores you. But you've said the Zelda games are just the same things over and over again and yet, to make your point you've had to make so many concessions and you've had to shift the goalposts so many times in this post alone - "Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are some of the very few games in the series to do this", "Wind Waker, interesting art style and the sailing aside", "I don't have a good relationship with the Wii controller or gameplay around it, so it just didn't work for me" - that it's hard to take your argument as persuasive.


I understand and that's fair enough, I still don't find much innovation or change in the others and I still find the Wii controller to be mostly worthless, you might build up the most wonderful thing using involving the Wii controller but I'd still be horrid because it's a fucking Wii controller.

quote:



It's sitting in my Steam library waiting to be played. I personally feel that, given the advantage of an interactive medium through which to tell your stories, there's something profoundly cheap and lazy about stopping the game and sitting the player down in front of a block of non-interactive text so that you can make them read about the backstory (or, in KH:DDD, read to know what's going on). I have a similar problem with cutscenes, but given video games are a more visual medium than a written medium, I can understand them. The best narrative-based games are those that tell their story in a visual, largely interactive way though (Half-Life 2, Beyond Good & Evil - IRIS Network M-disks aside, the Portal series all come to mind).

EDIT: For the record, I have the same problem with audio logs that are integral to understanding the world or the story.


Deus Ex tends to work without having to read a book about how India and Pakistan have finally nuked each other though, it's there for added explanation on what is going on in the world. It's also immensely inventive and well presented. They're books or e-mails which explain the world better while the important basic part of the planet is presented all in the way you believe it should, you'll still get most of it by being a lazy illiterate asshole and listen/watch the discussion.

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Post #: 260
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:40:06 PM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W
I don't believe that things like going to the gym or playing pool can be considered more than aesthetic additions to the overall gameplay of GTA - they're not absolutely essential to the game and how it works. These are easy things to criticise, and it's really about as deep as RCR's satire goes - it doesn't work as a result because it's underdeveloped (there isn't really *that* much value to be derived from a new developer coming up with a message like 'modern games BAD, old games GOOD' when other games reference classic periods in gaming with a bit more finesse). I also don't think anyone playing SMB could miss what it's getting at - it's not exactly subtle about it, but the message is pretty clearly defined and there's a genuine critical engagement with the classic games it's homaging.

Obviously it's all down to personal preference and what we consider fun (apologies if you think I've been unfairly critical, I'm not looking to change your opinion or anything). but even by saying some old games are bad, we're having a more nuanced critical discussion of retro gaming than RCR imo.

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Post #: 261
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 3:58:05 PM   
Deviation


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I enjoyed going to the gym in San Andreas. It gave it an RPG feel and it did feel more immersive. Plus, it made beating a guy dressed like Elvis faster, stronger and more devastating.

True story.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 9/12/2012 3:59:11 PM >


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


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Post #: 262
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 4:04:16 PM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 7993
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

I enjoyed going to the gym in San Andreas. It gave it an RPG feel and it did feel more immersive. Plus, it made beating a guy dressed like Elvis faster, stronger and more devastating.

True story.


That was the worst thing about San Andreas for me, I absolutely hated the RPG elements because I felt they jarred really hard in a GTA game. I also disliked the fact that the map was so big it could take fucking ages to get from one side of the map to the other. That was really, really bad news in the missions where you had to get a car from A to B with no damage. It just felt like they put in shit loads of pretty much empty countryside to pad the size of the map.

For me San Andreas is easily the worst of the 3D GTA games. I still enjoyed it quite a bit mind, I just think it's the weakest of the post GTA III lot.

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Post #: 263
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 9/12/2012 5:39:40 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7914
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Obviously it's all down to personal preference and what we consider fun (apologies if you think I've been unfairly critical, I'm not looking to change your opinion or anything). but even by saying some old games are bad, we're having a more nuanced critical discussion of retro gaming than RCR imo.


Change my mind? No chance!


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Post #: 264
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 2:31:31 AM   
scarface666brooksy!!


Posts: 3544
Joined: 24/10/2007
From: The Valley of the Wind

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

Great thread though Brooksy!



Thanks clowny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

I enjoyed going to the gym in San Andreas. It gave it an RPG feel and it did feel more immersive. Plus, it made beating a guy dressed like Elvis faster, stronger and more devastating.

True story.


All of this.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

For me San Andreas is easily the worst of the 3D GTA games. I still enjoyed it quite a bit mind, I just think it's the weakest of the post GTA III lot.



For me it's VC > SA > 3 > IV > LCS > VCS

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Post #: 265
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 9:41:17 AM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 7993
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: scarface666brooksy!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

For me San Andreas is easily the worst of the 3D GTA games. I still enjoyed it quite a bit mind, I just think it's the weakest of the post GTA III lot.



For me it's VC > SA > 3 > IV > LCS > VCS


I'd go VC > IV > III > SA

Of the Stories titles I've not played them although I do still have a copy of Liberty City Stories on my PS2.

All thetalk of stuff like Dizzy has put me in the mood to do my own list of old school classics sometime in the new year. I'd probably restrict it to 8-bit computers and consoles only. I'll see how it goes in the new year and whether I can still be arsed or not.

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Post #: 266
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 10:06:24 AM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W
Liberty City Stories ahead of VCS? Really??

I'd agree with Harry's rankings, though The Ballad of Gay Tony was considerably better than IV - mission checkpoints, better characters, a shotgun you can blow up cars with etc

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Post #: 267
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 11:44:04 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

It's less of a shift in mechanics and more of a way to incorporate the controls into the Wii controller.


That is a shift in mechanics. To quote the influential essay MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research -

quote:


Mechanics
Mechanics are the various actions, behaviors and control mechanisms afforded to the player within a game context. Together with the game’s content (levels, assets and so on) the mechanics support overall gameplay dynamics.


You are academically incorrect.

quote:


Oh and I care very little for multiplayer (other then a few or simply just one exception).


There's that "I just don't care about your development" thing again.

quote:


Also, Spirit Tracks? Wouldn't Phantom Hourglass be the truly great example since it had to incorporate the changes into the DS?


Spirit Tracks is more obvious a shift, putting aside the DS shift because apparently you disagree with a significant body of academic work and don't think shifts in consoles or control schemes are mechanic changes.

quote:

They're books or e-mails which explain the world better while the important basic part of the planet is presented all in the way you believe it should, you'll still get most of it by being a lazy illiterate asshole and listen/watch the discussion.


It's by no means a be-all end-all thing for me - I'm not going to be a jerk and reject a game totally because of audio logs or books, I'm just going to be disappointed and reject that part of it. Video games are fascinating because they provide a totally new way of telling a story, though, allowing you to come to terms with a world and a narrative through direct and indirect interaction with it. While audio logs and books can provide nice tidbits or what have you, I haven't seen enough good examples of their use to convince me that it's not often lazy storytelling by developers who either can't find a way to force in information they want to tell the player or simply can't be bothered making the storyline coherent within the game itself. I'm sure good examples exist - I just haven't got around to them yet (I've played one passable example, and that was Bioshock). It's not about being a lazy illiterate asshole - it's about wanting developers to take the opportunity to fully explore the possibilities of a great new artistic medium. As I mentioned, I have a problem with cutscenes for the same reason, albeit a lesser one because they're so fundamentally ingrained in current videogame storytelling methods, whereas books and audiologs aren't.

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ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


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ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

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Post #: 268
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 1:02:20 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7914
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

It's less of a shift in mechanics and more of a way to incorporate the controls into the Wii controller.


That is a shift in mechanics. To quote the influential essay MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research -

quote:


Mechanics
Mechanics are the various actions, behaviors and control mechanisms afforded to the player within a game context. Together with the games content (levels, assets and so on) the mechanics support overall gameplay dynamics.


You are academically incorrect.


I read that as a control mechanism within the game; you know pre-destination (linear pathways), freedom of choice (and the subterfuge that you don't really have a choice - see Bioshock) etc. Not the controller as a specific gameplay mechanic....

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Post #: 269
RE: Brooksy's Top 50 Games - 10/12/2012 1:57:53 PM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
Bioshock is actually a really good example of form and content merging successfully (even though I'm fairly sure it was the original example of 'ludonarrative dissonance' when that guy coined the term, I'll have to read it again). Along with the linearity of the main story being an implicit critique of Objectivist ideology of pure self-determination, there's also [SPOILER]the still-amazing mind control twist[/SPOILER]. well played those gentlemen.

also, since both are being discussed - GTA and the Commodore 64 together at last. Vice City, obviously - http://youtu.be/XVHqL_uTqOg

< Message edited by Olaf -- 10/12/2012 1:58:22 PM >


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