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Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 1:29:22 PM

Titanm21

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/9576852/Nephew-of-Sir-Jimmy-Saville-disgusted-at-allegations-of-sexual-abuse.html#

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 2:31:58 PM

donethinking

Posts: 430
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From: Haggisland

Doesnt surprize me, I always thought he looked cable of that sort of thing.

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Post #: 2

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 3:16:56 PM

matty_b

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From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.

Have fun with this one, mods.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 3:26:06 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16687
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

I think there is too little information to make a valid judgement one way or the other. Claims have come out now he is dead and cannot defend himself but at the same time other instances have occurred of exactly the same thing. It is pretty much a case of sitting on the fence with this one until there are more than just claims in a newpaper story.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 3:29:30 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3546
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quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

Doesnt surprize me, I always thought he looked cable of that sort of thing.

Well, I'm sure most people can look capable. Are you referring to his track-suits?

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 3:54:09 PM

elab49

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From what I understand there is soon to be a documentary on, I think, ITV that takes forward more research on allegations that were to appear in a previous BBC documentary and has found more sources. That one was pulled by the lawyers I think (I remember the BBC being accused of bottling it because of Saville's connections to them). The documentary is on in a few days I think, so it was pretty much anticipated a thread would appear.

With this one it was only a matter of time before someone went public with the rumours.

Given you the old 'you can't libel the dead' chestnut I'd still suggest some care is taken until the legal position is clarified. But a news story is a valid topic for discussion.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 6:54:58 PM

Saltire

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From: Dundee

There may have been plenty of opportunities on TOTP back in the day I bet; though I'm not going to stain Jimmy's name until there's hard evidence, as he did a lot of good over the years.

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Post #: 7

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:04:59 PM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

If the allegations are true then fair enough. I must admit it's not the first time I've heard such rumours. But it's a little odd that they've chosen to come forward now that he's no longer around. He can't really defend himself and as mentioned above he did a lot of good over the years.

Whatever the truth, it'd be a shame if people forgot that.

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Post #: 8

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:11:14 PM

elab49

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At least one person went to the police back in 2007.

And given the villification victims of abuse can receive - particularly if the abuser has some form of power/recognition (local, national, etc) - I'm not sure that's a clear-cut condemnation to use of any claims. One hopes the documentary has done some robust work to back up any claims, though, rather than gratuitously tar someone's name.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:12:18 PM

Shifty Bench

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
Whatever the truth, it'd be a shame if people forgot that.

It would be a shame to forget the good he did even if it was true that he was a sex offender? I think that would negate the good he did to be honest.

Not that I'm saying he was, there is no evidence to support that.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:14:35 PM

Hood_Man

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I don't mean to simplify something like this, but it's probably just easier for a victim to come forward when they don't have to face their abuser.

Not saying he did it mind, but it doesn't seem hard to believe to me that if he did do it, his victims would wait until after he died to come forward. It's not cowardice, just fear I guess.

< Message edited by Hood_Man -- 30/9/2012 7:15:16 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:21:26 PM

Shifty Bench

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^ this is very true. It'd a difficult subject because we don't know why they came foward just now, either way. As usual we don't know or never will know the full story.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:23:33 PM

elab49

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I'd assume super-injunctions lapse on death. Did The Sun ever publish the article it was suggested had been supressed wrt Saville? (Don't read it but I'm guessing it would have been mentioned elsewhere if they had).

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:33:07 PM

jon5000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
Whatever the truth, it'd be a shame if people forgot that.

It would be a shame to forget the good he did even if it was true that he was a sex offender? I think that would negate the good he did to be honest.

Not that I'm saying he was, there is no evidence to support that.

Well in the hypothetical circumstance that these allegations were true, then obviously the matter should be made public and he should be 'exposed', if you will.. But that shouldn't negate the good he's done, no. Doing good is doing good. And he made a difference to a lot of people's lives... even if he was a raging nonce.

It's a bit disrespectful to take that away from him especially now he's dead.

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Post #: 14

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:37:44 PM

donethinking

Posts: 430
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From: Haggisland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench.

Not that I'm saying he was, there is no evidence to support that.

apparently the evidence is quite damming (according to this ITV investigation) but If the truth is inconvient for some people is it best left under the carpet ? I dont think so.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 7:44:21 PM

Shifty Bench

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
Well in the hypothetical circumstance that these allegations were true, then obviously the matter should be made public and he should be 'exposed', if you will.. But that shouldn't negate the good he's done, no. Doing good is doing good. And he made a difference to a lot of people's lives... even if he was a raging nonce.

It's a bit disrespectful to take that away from him especially now he's dead.

If there was proof that he did abuse young girls, I personally wouldn't care what good he did. Same goes for anybody, they shouldn't get a pass for being sex offenders if they also helped people, that doesn't stick for me. For all we know, someone in that position could have done good for that very reason. To make themselves feel better for the bad they are doing and to fool people.

A child abuser could also be a charity worker but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are a child abuser. And scum. This is just my opinion, though, not telling anyone else what to think.

< Message edited by Shifty Bench -- 30/9/2012 7:46:24 PM >

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 9:03:33 PM

Ghidorah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
Well in the hypothetical circumstance that these allegations were true, then obviously the matter should be made public and he should be 'exposed', if you will.. But that shouldn't negate the good he's done, no. Doing good is doing good. And he made a difference to a lot of people's lives... even if he was a raging nonce.

It's a bit disrespectful to take that away from him especially now he's dead.

If there was proof that he did abuse young girls, I personally wouldn't care what good he did. Same goes for anybody, they shouldn't get a pass for being sex offenders if they also helped people, that doesn't stick for me. For all we know, someone in that position could have done good for that very reason. To make themselves feel better for the bad they are doing and to fool people.

A child abuser could also be a charity worker but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are a child abuser. And scum. This is just my opinion, though, not telling anyone else what to think.

At least this alledge scum attempted to redeem himself afterward, something can't be said for many others pieces shit who need to locked up in a cage and toss into the sea.

We all make mistakes and many of us do let people down. While Jimmy Saville may gone to the extreme but at least he did good at the end. Helped far more people than help to destroy. There are worst people out there that need to be exposed.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 9:15:40 PM

elab49

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I'm sorry, but in general terms not specific to this I don't believe there is any such trade-off. Not to mention the number of predators that use charitable activities to get access to vulnerable kids - it's part of what they do.

And this is also why people don't come forward - oh, but he's a good man, look at all the good he does, you bad bad child. Etc etc. I think that's quite horrible.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 9:37:25 PM

Shifty Bench

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah
At least this alledge scum attempted to redeem himself afterward, something can't be said for many others pieces shit who need to locked up in a cage and toss into the sea.

We all make mistakes and many of us do let people down. While Jimmy Saville may gone to the extreme but at least he did good at the end. Helped far more people than help to destroy. There are worst people out there that need to be exposed.

What is......? I've been late to a few family dinners and I didn't turn up to one of my sister's dance shows once because I was working. THAT is letting someone down. What he is alleged to have done is irredeemable in my book. And how do we know he tried to redeem himself after the alleged abuse? It could have happened at the same time.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I'm sorry, but in general terms not specific to this I don't believe there is any such trade-off. Not to mention the number of predators that use charitable activities to get access to vulnerable kids - it's part of what they do.

And this is also why people don't come forward - oh, but he's a good man, look at all the good he does, you bad bad child. Etc etc. I think that's quite horrible.

Exactly. Sexual abuse is nothing to just ignore because the dude did charity work.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 9:54:59 PM

Ghidorah

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Sorry for the post. I didn't know the extent of the alledge abuse untill now and when he started his charitable work. If these allege crimes are true then I doubt he would of change for the better when he reached his elderly state.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 10:31:10 PM

steffols

Posts: 7613
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From: Jungleland

I'm not sure what these allegations are going to do in the long run. The man is dead and unless the victims are going to get some closure and peace from the public really knowing the truth about him - no good will come of this. I don't mean to sound callous but he isn't here to fight his own corner and it's one side against a dead man. It just doesn't sit right with me.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 11:35:35 PM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
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From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm sorry, but in general terms not specific to this I don't believe there is any such trade-off. Not to mention the number of predators that use charitable activities to get access to vulnerable kids - it's part of what they do.

And this is also why people don't come forward - oh, but he's a good man, look at all the good he does, you bad bad child. Etc etc. I think that's quite horrible.

Actually, I think you and others are the ones assuming a trade off here...

I'm not trying to defend what he may have done. All I said I was I found it odd that the alleged victims had come out of hiding now. And a program with it hmmm.

But that aside, I affirm my belief that doing good is doing good. Even if Hitler had done a charity run and raised some money before he became an evil bastard I would commend him for that. Off setting acts of good against acts of evil seems bizarre to me.

I'm just saying, irrespective of his alleged wrongdoings, it would be a great shame if people forgot all the lives he changed for good. And he did a fuck load of good. End of.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 11:40:55 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11270
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm sorry, but in general terms not specific to this I don't believe there is any such trade-off. Not to mention the number of predators that use charitable activities to get access to vulnerable kids - it's part of what they do.

And this is also why people don't come forward - oh, but he's a good man, look at all the good he does, you bad bad child. Etc etc. I think that's quite horrible.

Actually, I think you and others are the ones assuming a trade off here...

I'm not trying to defend what he may have done. All I said I was I found it odd that the alleged victims had come out of hiding now. And a program with it hmmm.

But that aside, I affirm my belief that doing good is doing good. Even if Hitler had done a charity run and raised some money before he became an evil bastard I would commend him for that. Off setting acts of good against acts of evil seems bizarre to me.

I'm just saying, irrespective of his alleged wrongdoings, it would be a great shame if people forgot all the lives he changed for good. And he did a fuck load of good. End of.

60 million people/2.5% of the planet's population at the time dead, offset by a charity fun run? You couldn't have picked a more provocative example

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Post #: 23

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 11:43:23 PM

Shifty Bench

Posts: 14553
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
Even if Hitler had done a charity run and raised some money before he became an evil bastard I would commend him for that. Off setting acts of good against acts of evil seems bizarre to me.

Yeah......you just lost the argument there.....

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 30/9/2012 11:45:18 PM

elab49

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Jon, my response was to the post above mine not yours. Ghidorah had raised this but has now stepped back from the point.

Separately to that, what if someone (again I'd emphasise here this isn't anything to do with this but since the general point has been raised) what if the use of the charitable activities was linked to a crime being committed? This is what some predators have done, getting involved with youth education, youth charities and youth groups. Raising money but, importantly for them, getting access. Which is why many of these checks are now in place before people can get access to children.

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 1/10/2012 12:09:00 AM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

Ugrh.

You guys still can't grasp this concept can you? (Not aimed at elab)

Look, I am not saying whatever whichever person has done isn't evil... I am just saying the good that they have done IS and always will be good. What part of that concept can't you understand?

All you seem to be interested in doing is comparing good actions against bad actions. Whereas all I'm saying is, in memory, good actions should not cease to be good actions because of whatever bad actions. Genuinely aghast you cannot see that.

Utterly bizarre.

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Post #: 26

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 1/10/2012 12:12:56 AM

elab49

Posts: 51544
Joined: 1/10/2005

I'm not sure I agree with your point because motivation comes into play - with many you'd ask 'why'. Does it indicate a genuinely altruistic side or whether it was for another reason.

I don't think the specific example helped though tbh

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 1/10/2012 12:16:33 AM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11270
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

Ugrh.

You guys still can't grasp this concept can you? (Not aimed at elab)

Look, I am not saying whatever whichever person has done isn't evil... I am just saying the good that they have done IS and always will be good. What part of that concept can't you understand?

All you seem to be interested in doing is comparing good actions against bad actions. Whereas all I'm saying is, in memory, good actions should not cease to be good actions because of whatever bad actions. Genuinely aghast you cannot see that.

Utterly bizarre.

Yeah, we get what you're saying. We're not staring at our monitors in disbelief because we don't understand, we're doing so because:

quote:

Even if Hitler had done a charity run and raised some money before he became an evil bastard I would commend him for that. Off setting acts of good against acts of evil seems bizarre to me.

You can be as condescending as you want, you're the one who made a comparison with Hitler.

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Post #: 28

RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 1/10/2012 12:20:21 AM

Rgirvan44

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Hahahahahaha

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RE: Allegations of Jimmy Saville - 1/10/2012 12:21:25 AM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

Okay, hyperbole for the case of argument maybe... but this argument is not about offsetting good acts against bad acts and that's exactly my point. The Hitler example is actually quite useful in context. No it doesn't redeem him as a person, but if he had done charity work it's still good... even if he is the most evil bastard to ever walk the planet. That is literally all I'm saying. Good acts are good acts.

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Post #: 30