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Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 12:25:55 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
Joined: 25/1/2010
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19690210

As Gary Neville once said: Un. Be. Lievable.
I may have missed it, but I'm yet to hear any other governments or UN figures, particularly in the U.S, openly condem these comments. Which considering this is a public figure not just urging but offering to pay for murder is even more astonishing.
I consciously don't want this to come over as an anti-Islamist post, but this highlights the ugly side of religion and the disproportionate reaction to "blasphemy" perfectly.

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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 5:27:30 PM   
Drone


Posts: 966
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

I consciously don't want this to come over as an anti-Islamist post



You know what, this is the problem. That all these extremists and religious nuts have created such a climate of ludicrous fear that whenever anybody mentions Islam they feel the need to iterate that they "aren't anti Islam / anti Muslim" etc and it's just crazy. People are walking on such eggshells it's pathetic. (And frankly I consider anyone involved in this violence or condemnation a complete nutcase, but then again I don't believe in silly stories anyway so I would never get so irate about something to stupid).

I don't want to see anyone in intelligent, civilised society condemning this film, firstly. We live in an educated first world, we enjoy freedom of speech. I'm an atheist and I couldn't give a shit about this fairytale "prophet sent by god."

Yet there are lunatics in the world who would have my head for just making that statement. Wouldn't surprise me if a mod even completely justified my entire point by removing that comment - but I hope not.

And what's more frustrating, the same treatment of a Christian figure, Hindu, anything else, would have it's criticisms laughed off by any civilised society. Outrage would be poked fun of in the papers, on TV, nobody would take it seriously.

But oooohhhhh big bad Islam, we'd better respect them or according to the media's devlish subtle hands we'll all be bombed.

GASP OH MY GOD THERE I SAID IT UH OH I BROKE THE TABOO THAT'S ME A RACIST AND INTOLERANT BIGOT RARRRR THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT PEOPLE LIKE ME OMG. Let's be honest about why we really tolerate all this bullshit. We're scared, and the minority maniacs have managed to hold us all to ransom by making us afraid to defend our own beliefs. We're afraid of Islam, and that's why we're all putting up with this bollocks. Our leaders should be utterly condeming this violence, these protests, and defending the rights of the people involved in this film as human beings, first and foremost.

Fuck them, fuck the film about that fictional nonsense, and I hope for the safety, well being and long lives of everyone involved in that fictional piece of filmmaking which to me, is about as controversial as Middleton's tits that had the country in Daily Mail - esque OUTRAGE. Get a grip, world, please.


< Message edited by Drone -- 23/9/2012 5:28:48 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 5:33:34 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drone

I don't want to see anyone in intelligent, civilised society condemning this film, firstly. We live in an educated first world, we enjoy freedom of speech. I'm an atheist and I couldn't give a shit about this fairytale "prophet sent by god."


Neither do I - but you do have a contradiction in this first sentence, I think.

If this was, say, the Danish cartoons then that'd be one thing - the hysteria over those should not have been pandered to, absolutely. BUT if it is a civilised society then it is, I think, entirely right to condemn a product that is made to be deliberately offensive/insulting. This isn't a film that is trying to say something creative, it's a deliberate piece of bigotry that exists solely for that sake.

And by condemn I mean tag them the hateful bigots they are, not harm them. Big difference to the ridiculous proxy outburts elsewhere.


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ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 3
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 5:56:35 PM   
vad3r


Posts: 4403
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Close to Mod HQ
"If someone else makes other similar blasphemous material in the future, I will also pay his killers $100,000.''


Isn't this an incentive for killers to create their own blasphemous material, kill a random person, frame them, and pocket 100k?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives
To paraphrase the great man himself:

Vad3r won't go anywhere near this.

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Post #: 4
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 6:56:58 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


If this was, say, the Danish cartoons then that'd be one thing - the hysteria over those should not have been pandered to, absolutely. BUT if it is a civilised society then it is, I think, entirely right to condemn a product that is made to be deliberately offensive/insulting. This isn't a film that is trying to say something creative, it's a deliberate piece of bigotry that exists solely for that sake.

And by condemn I mean tag them the hateful bigots they are, not harm them. Big difference to the ridiculous proxy outburts elsewhere.



When you look at the "charity" which funded the film it is a extremist Evangelical Christian society Media for Christ, which has achieved exactly what it wanted from the reaction to this film.

The problem with the reaction is it has played directly into the hands of the bigots who orchestrated the whole thing and this action by an official in the Pakistan Government just further provides ammunition for those who are inspired by hatred.

At the end of the day no one has won and all they have done is create a further ball of hatred and spite and made the world a worse place as a result.

Some people really have nothing to offer the world other than this, which is a great shame.

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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 7:36:47 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
Joined: 25/1/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drone

I don't want to see anyone in intelligent, civilised society condemning this film, firstly. We live in an educated first world, we enjoy freedom of speech. I'm an atheist and I couldn't give a shit about this fairytale "prophet sent by god."


Neither do I - but you do have a contradiction in this first sentence, I think.



The great catch 22 of free speech perfectly illustrated.
I haven't seen Innocence but I find it's purpose and message pretty ridiculous. More ridiculous still, though, is the reaction from the Muslim world. The idea that murder is acceptable retribution for being offended would be funny if it wasn't being so scarily realised around the world.
You have to question the logic of the film maker in all this, particularly as he has now apparently "gone into hiding". Having a message to get out is one thing, but what he's done is akin to John McClain in Die Hard 3, walking through Harlem with his I Hate N*****s sandwich board, then wondering why the black guys want to kill him.


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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 10:22:53 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
The bloke who made it is now attempting to claim he was conned into making it when he had no idea what it was about. Strangely he will not answer questions regarding his extreme anti Islam statements he has made in the past and has made many speeches at some quite extreme anti Islam meetings. Also he is apparently a Coptic Christian from Egypt who left due to persecution, he was asked what his actions would do to other Coptic Christians in Egypt as surely he realised that this film would increase not reduce persecution of them but refused to answer that question.

I think it can honestly be said there are villains on both sides of this story.

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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 10:52:39 PM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
Making a film that hurts no one doesn't make anyone a villain. The idea that he should share any of the responsibility for the aftermath is ridiculous. People have the right to free speech (or at least they should have), and that includes speech that offends other people.

And also, what's wrong with being anti-Islam? Islam is just an ideology, and should be subject to same amount of criticism as any other ideology. The more people throw around words like "bigot" and "Islamaphobe" in order to silence debate on a subject, the more we're handing over victory to these religious nutcases.

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Post #: 8
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 11:02:17 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Making an incendiary film in an attempt to stir up anger knowing of prior instances does and the idiots on the other side did exactly what he wished them to do and he very much was pulling the strings. An analogy would be spitting in someone face knowing they will hit you to get them arrested.

The statements this individual has made goes well beyond just questioning the ideology in a rationale manner but relies upon generalisations and stereotyping which achieves nothing at the end of the day.

There is a difference between rationale and informed debate which can advance and progress things and deliberately inflammatory insults,those who do not recognise the difference are part of the problem in that they are deliberately inflating that problem for their own agenda.

In addition (in the UK at least) free speech is an overused excuse in that people seem to fail to understand that there are limits to what can be said if it is slanderous/libellous or designed to cause harm or supporting or encouraging violence which is exactly what this individual was doing with the production of this film.

this does not hide the fact that the idiots and the violence resulting from the film is a hideous thing and the Pakistan minister very much out of order with his bounty which essentially has eliminated any moral high ground they may have been able to take.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 23/9/2012 11:06:23 PM >


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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 11:21:22 PM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
Making an incendiary film in an attempt to stir up anger knowing of prior instances does and the idiots on the other side did exactly what he wished them to do and he very much was pulling the strings. An analogy would be spitting in someone face knowing they will hit you to get them arrested

Spitting in someone's face is assault. Making a film =/= assault

Also, the film criticises an ideology, not a person. It would be like a Tory punching you in the face for criticising Conservatism.
quote:

In addition (in the UK at least) free speech is an overused excuse in that people seem to fail to understand that there are limits to what can be said if it is slanderous/libellous or designed to cause harm or supporting or encouraging violence which is exactly what this individual was doing with the production of this film.

Was anything in the film slanderous/libellous? Was it designed to cause harm (how can a film cause harm)? Did it support or encourage violence? The clear answer to all three is no. The script consultant for the film said that the filmmaker's motive was "to reach out to the small minority of very dangerous people in California and try to shock them into understanding how dangerous Islam is".

EDIT: I direct you to Sam Harris's blog, who says it better than I could:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-freedom-to-offend-an-imaginary-god

"What exactly was in the film? Who made it? What were their motives? Was Muhammad really depicted? Was that a Qur’an burning, or some other book? Questions of this kind are obscene. Here is where the line must be drawn and defended without apology: We are free to burn the Qur’an or any other book, and to criticize Muhammad or any other human being. Let no one forget it."

< Message edited by sam89 -- 23/9/2012 11:24:50 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 23/9/2012 11:30:51 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Actually the film was directly insulting Muhammad calling him a paedophile and womaniser which I understand is deemed to be a massive insult to the religion. If you do not think a film can cause harm then you are quite naive in yourself. A film can ask questions if well made and can open eyes but a badly made or deliberately provocative film can be a tool for harm (see the various Nazi propaganda films demonising the Jews).

Knowing of the reaction which occurred following the printing of satirical cartoons of Muhammad then the maker would have to be incredibly naive or stupid if he was unaware of the reaction of making a film calling essentially the originator of the religion a paedophile. Also taking into account the prior comments the maker had made which are on the record then it is very easy to call that motive into question and to state that he knew that violence would be the result of the film and that it was his intent to encourage such violence to promote his own agenda. Something which the idiots have done.

You can quite easily question aspect of Islam and especially extremist aspects without being insulting to the whole or to create something which you know will result in violence and death.

As I stated there are no heroes on either side of this story only villains.

Edit:

Is that the Sam Harris whom has stated "We are at war with Islam"?

< Message edited by sanchia -- 23/9/2012 11:42:43 PM >


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RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 12:13:06 AM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89
Also, the film criticises an ideology, not a person. It would be like a Tory punching you in the face for criticising Conservatism.


And in doing so, it insulted directly a person, which in this case he's been dead for centuries now for a few centuries.
quote:


Was anything in the film slanderous/libellous?


The depiction of the Prophet as a savage killer, hungry for wealth and hellbent on killing kids and women is considered pretty much slanderous for a majority of Muslims. So that would be a yes depending on one's viewpoint, and at least it is downright offensive.

There's also the thing that the filmmaker LIED to the actors into making the film, hence the Cindy Lee Garcia case going on right now.

quote:


Was it designed to cause harm (how can a film cause harm)?


I'd say a bloody yes, it directly wanted to create a reaction into a bunch of savages (who found the perfect excuse to do harm thanks to it wh put it in a "This another case of the West attacking us" bracket) and casualties were caused in the process. So yes.

Oh and...


quote:


Did it support or encourage violence? The clear answer to all three is no. The script consultant for the film said that the filmmaker's motive was "to reach out to the small minority of very dangerous people in California and try to shock them into understanding how dangerous Islam is".


No, but it sure as hell aimed to make a response. It was directly provoking and foolish, nay, not foolish, absolutely moronic. The film was still fighting words. Steve Klein knew this would happen, he still did it, “We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen.”


quote:


http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-freedom-to-offend-an-imaginary-god

"What exactly was in the film? Who made it? What were their motives? Was Muhammad really depicted? Was that a Qur’an burning, or some other book? Questions of this kind are obscene. Here is where the line must be drawn and defended without apology: We are free to burn the Qur’an or any other book, and to criticize Muhammad or any other human being. Let no one forget it."


True for the States, and they do well by keeping that stance, not so true for other countries in Europe where the film would be called hate speech (a thing I'm not particularly fond of btw, I think it should still be said and confronted rather than thrown under the carpet and left to grow).

Oh and I prefer Ed Husain over that science can determine morality, I'm gonna defend torture" twat.

quote:

Ed Husain, senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies, US Council on Foreign Relations, and author of The Islamist.

I am a Muslim. I am a Westerner. I see no contradictions in being both.

We reached this stage of our history by ending the control of the Catholic Church on what could and could not be said or written in public. So-called heretics were killed at the stake to help secure freedom of religion, thought, and expression. These freedoms are sacrosanct to me.

It is this history of Christian Protestant bravery that led to the creation of pluralist and secular societies in the West, allowing for the first time in history for Muslims and Jews to settle there in large numbers - we were free to practise our religions freely. The barbarity of pogroms, witch-hunting, and burning heretics ended.

My fellow Muslims must understand this background. We cannot trample on the very freedoms that allow us to thrive as Muslims. Yes, it hurts when the Prophet is insulted. From Shakespeare to Thomas Paine, Western literature is full of negative references to Muslims as Moors, Turks, and followers of Mahomet.

Similarly, classical Arabic and Persian writings are replete with anti-Semitism and denial of Christ's divinity as the son of God. Yet, it is a remarkable feat that we in the West have accommodated all faiths and no faith.

This achievement cannot be reversed. Self-censorship is to reverse the gains made by our intellectual forefathers.

Just as Muslims are free in the West, Christians and other dissenters must be free in the East.

We Muslims killed some of our best luminaries because of clerical accusations of heresy, absence of freedom of thought.

From executing al-Hallaj in Baghdad to stoning Ibn Arabi in Damascus to banishing Bulleh Shah in the Punjab, the history is bitter.

They were Muslim martyrs to freedom of thought. As a Westerner and Muslim, I want to cherish these freedoms and secure liberty for future generations.


This isn't justifying the actions of the protestors who resorted to violence, they're disgusting, repulsive and worthy of every contempt and by far the worst villians here, but the Copt, Sedak, Klein, everyone involved in the film knowing what it was (hence, leaving out the actors that were lied to) are still reprehensible for doing that.

Oh and whoever said some Hindus don't take insult at certain depictions of their culture or idols. Yes they do, OH YES THEY DO. But this is a different discussion.


< Message edited by Deviation -- 24/9/2012 12:35:28 AM >


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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Post #: 12
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 12:35:47 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Hitchens would've loving this.

the offer of money, in his own name, by a political leader to suborn the murder of a citizen of a foreign country for the crime of making a crap film.

Apologies to the deceased Hitchens.

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Post #: 13
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 12:44:13 AM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation
The depiction of the Prophet as a savage killer, hungry for wealth and hellbent on killing kids and women is considered pretty much slanderous for a majority of Muslims. So that would be a yes depending on one's viewpoint, and at least it is downright offensive.

A depiction that is entirely accurate, I might add, despite how offensive some people may find it. It's all there in the Qur'an. Slander requires someone to have lied . . .

quote:

There's also the thing that the filmmaker LIED to the actors into making the film, hence the Cindy Lee Garcia case going on right now.

On that point I agree with you. But that's not the reason people are getting killed.

quote:

I'd say a bloody yes, it directly wanted to create a reaction into a bunch of savages (who found the perfect excuse to do harm thanks to it) and casualties were caused in the process. So yes

Do you have any proof that they wanted it to happen (as opposed to them simply knowing it might happen)?

quote:

No, but it sure as hell aimed to make a response. It was directly provoking and foolish, nay, not foolish, absolutely moronic. The film was still fighting words. Steve Klein knew this would happen, he still did it, “We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen.”

It's too bad he didn't let his actions be guided by the reactions Islamic nutjobs.

quote:

Oh and I prefer Ed Husain over that science can determine morality, I'm gonna defend torture" twat.

You strike me as having not actually read anything Sam Harris has written, given that he believes torture should remain illegal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
Is that the Sam Harris whom has stated "We are at war with Islam"?

Yes, meaning "as opposed to a war on terror".

< Message edited by sam89 -- 24/9/2012 12:48:36 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 12:47:57 AM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
It would be Pakistan too, which he never was a fan of (it could be said that he painted caricatures of it, ignoring that people like Abdul Sattar Edhi exist within it). He would have had a field day.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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Post #: 15
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 1:23:34 AM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

A depiction that is entirely accurate, I might add, despite how offensive some people may find it. It's all there in the Qur'an. Slander requires someone to have lied . . .


A depiction which many of the adherents (and also non-adherents), even some of the hard-lined and violent of it, find as repulsive, character defamation, wrong and insulting. So yeah, there is a possiblity that there was those who saw a slight misrepresentation in it. This could go on in circles and circles and circles and won't really lead us to anywhere.

quote:

Do you have any proof that they wanted it to happen (as opposed to them simply knowing it might happen)?


The Steve Klein quote was found here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/13/egypt-libya-hollywood-film
http://maxblumenthal.com/2012/09/meet-the-right-wing-extremist-behind-anti-muslim-film-that-sparked-deadly-riots/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/sam-bacile-in-hiding_n_1876044.html

So yeah, they knew it had a high possibility of happening and it reeks of "See! See! We told you we were right!". Not exactly proof, but considering who made it, Sedak's comments after it happened, what already had happened and what happened, I'd say they wanted a reaction. Or they really are very stupid.

quote:

You strike me as having not actually read anything Sam Harris has written, given that he believes torture should remain illegal.


Haven't read much of his and I found him quite dry, but caricatures to pass a point and that nonsensical argument involving collateral damage and judicial torture (before claiming it should be illegal and begging the entire point of this) still make him seem like a tit. I have better things to read than this, or what I read of that rightfully trashed The Moral Landscape.

quote:

It's too bad he didn't let his actions be guided by the reactions Islamic nutjobs.


And he shouldn't, but his actions are still stupid and worthy of a slap.

quote:

Yes, meaning "as opposed to a war on terror".


As opposed to "War on Terror which even some Muslims are fighting and constantly dying in, dying even more than most Westeners are because Wahhabis and Deobands, or the two mixed, don't represent a majority in Islam".

< Message edited by Deviation -- 24/9/2012 2:48:54 AM >


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to sam89)
Post #: 16
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 9:18:01 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89

quote:

Oh and I prefer Ed Husain over that science can determine morality, I'm gonna defend torture" twat.

You strike me as having not actually read anything Sam Harris has written, given that he believes torture should remain illegal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
Is that the Sam Harris whom has stated "We are at war with Islam"?

Yes, meaning "as opposed to a war on terror".


The Sam Harris who depicts the bombing of Palestine civilian areas as morally right and describing any civilians killed as collateral damage? That Sam Harris?


the Sam Harris whom stated "torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror. " The person who stated that torture should be used if there is one chance in a million that something useful could be gleaned from someone. That Sam Harris?

i do agree you should have a right to burn a book if so inspired (although to burn any book is an abomination) or to make a film on any subject. The question is why is that book being burnt and why is that film being made, if it is purely to cause offence then the question is what is the motivation behind the person wishing to cause offence. Also if they cause offence in the certain knowledge that their actions shall cause violence is that acceptable?

It is interesting to note that although there have been demonstrations and violence that the actual scale of these in comparison to the actual population has been small.

How is that not defending, nay, supporting torture?

On another note to be honest the rabid depiction of Muhammad as a paedophile does seem rather a desperate action by certain individuals (this film being one such example). Considering that the Oxford Dictionary of the Bible depicts Joseph as having been 30 (or 90) and Mary as twelve when they married and in Measure for Measure one character is proud to have been a maid at twelve (as if this was a rare occurrence) it appears to have been something which often occurred in that era. It makes it no less distasteful that it did occur but these were different times. Also do these same individuals rail against King John for having married a twelve year old or myriad other historical figures whom were influential? It just appears that such individuals are very selective in their historical selection.

All off topic as this is supposedly relating someone in the Pakistan government essentially saying murder for hire is acceptable.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 24/9/2012 9:32:08 AM >


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Post #: 17
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 10:41:24 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)

That Sam Harris? That Sam Harris is in favour of torture? And bombing civilians? Ye wouldn't think it from the debates and interviews on Youtube.

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Post #: 18
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 10:57:31 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I'm just going from the various quotes and references which i have read and seen attributed to him. He is someone who has some decent ideas but at the same time many of his ideas in one particular area are coloured in a less than balanced form.

He does seem something of an enigma in that he says one thing in one place and then appears to say the opposite in reference to a different subject. It is rather strange.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 24/9/2012 10:58:35 AM >


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Post #: 19
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 1:27:09 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I'm just going from the various quotes and references which i have read and seen attributed to him. He is someone who has some decent ideas but at the same time many of his ideas in one particular area are coloured in a less than balanced form.

He does seem something of an enigma in that he says one thing in one place and then appears to say the opposite in reference to a different subject. It is rather strange.


BUT DAWKINS LOVES HIM (a love that can be descirbed as embarassing as his love for James Watson, which leads to defending the tit even at his most stupid) HE HAS TO BE AMAZING HE ALSO BASHES RELIGION SO HE'S A GENUIS!!!!!1111

quote:

That Sam Harris? That Sam Harris is in favour of torture? And bombing civilians? Ye wouldn't think it from the debates and interviews on Youtube.


I would, because the man seems to be occasionally unsure on what position he's gonna take, going from "A is acceptable but it should be illegal and I'm going to compare it to uncomparable Z". Science isn't providing him with a very good moral certainty.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 24/9/2012 1:30:48 PM >


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 20
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 1:42:33 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
He does appear to be morally ambiguous and to alter his morality to fit the context of what he want to say? This is just the impression I get from reading and viewing various things he has said such as the whole it is acceptable to torture if "there is a one in a million chance of gaining useful information" essentially saying you can torture a million people and it is ok if you get some information from one person which could save someone (and that was in his defence of his statement accepting torture). At other times he says something against torture, he is very ambiguous and appear to lack a true moral compass. If anything he could do with a good humanist basis in that if this is all there is it is better to make it a better world than to hate.


Overall this whole thing is an awful thing, the film, the reaction to it, the extremism on both sides. It is all appears to be inspired by hatred. I just get a bit fed up of the whole stereotyping blanket statements which many people come out with (e.g. some Muslims are do evil things so the whole thing is evil and all who follow it are evil) it is very sad that such people exist as such stereotypes and blanket statements can be applied to pretty much any ideology, belief or society in some form or another. As I read the other day "it is not our beliefs which define us but our actions" and sadly on all sides and in all societies there are those to be ashamed of and those to be proud of.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 24/9/2012 1:51:25 PM >


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(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 21
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 4:19:47 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3815
Joined: 30/9/2005
Remember when all the Jews rioted after the Iranian leader had a load of holocaust deniers to "discuss" the holocaust.
To me the question is which is the greater crime, being a tool who makes a film or murder.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

_____________________________

Eddie: "Weve been burgaled"
Richie: You may have been, but I have never in my life. As a christian I am so tightly clenched, oh you mean burgaled
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(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 22
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 4:28:06 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
I'd not read or heard Harris say that "one in a million" thing about torture. That's quite worrying.

I do agree with him that it's not much of a stretch, if taking the Holy books literally and - to a degree - selectively, to say that Islam and Christianity are dangerous. I also agree with him that religious moderates and both their and the electable western mainstream's insistence that faith requires respect lend a degree of "cover" for extremists.

I include Christianity because, for example, the Catholic root has a lot to answer for and continues to utter some ludicrous things. Only last week the bishop of Paisley compared abortion to the Holocaust. Moreover, tame though unrest is in comparison, marriage is not a Christian or religious concept. It is not theirs to define. And yet...

The danger stems from the ultimate authority given by believers to these texts. It renders criticism of both the texts and interpretations of them insulting. Furthermore, the impulse seems still to be for believers, their leaders especially, to bend the public sphere to their will. Phuck that.

I'm happy to respect an individual's right to believe whatever the hell they want. They don't have a right to expect me to respect those beliefs.

I struggle with moral certainties. So far I can hold only a few. All are born equal. All should be free to express, in a non-violent manner, any thought that occurs. Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. Punishment for breaching these self-evident truths and golden rule should be determined dispassionately by a corporate representation of the totality of the people and fall short of death. Religions, religious leaders and a significant number of the religious seem to me to disagree with even these 4.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 23
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 8:02:48 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
I think the point being missed here is that the outpouring of hate is not just about the film, it's connected with the way the muslim countries have been treated by the Americans over the years, the dictatorships inflicted on them, the wars, the blind support for Israel who are allowed to consistently get away with crimes a muslim country would be villified and probably attacked for. The film is seen as just another piece of proof that America hates the Islamic world even though the US government played no part in making it.

Taken from a Guardian article about the US media reaction to all of this :

'And it's in the world of reality, not conspiracy, where the US really has continuously interfered in their countries' governance by propping up and supporting their dictators. Intense Muslim animosity toward the US, including in Egypt, long pre-dates this film, and the reasons aren't hard to discern. That's precisely why the US supported tyranny in these countries for so long: to ensure that the citizens' views, so contrary to US policy, would be suppressed and rendered irrelevant.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/14/egypt-nbc

< Message edited by Fluke Skywalker -- 24/9/2012 8:06:28 PM >

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 24
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 8:19:40 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
I mentioned that. They also view the film as something of the State made rather than that it was an independent thing. For them, it's another attack on their culture.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 25
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 24/9/2012 8:55:56 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18245
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I do get the impression that it is partly due to poor education on behalf of the rioters and partly through desired misperceptions which they have been fed (such as the West is some entity as a whole). This is to a degree a something they may have been fed by certain interested individuals whom profit from such misrepresentations but that is an unprovable theory based upon misanthropy.

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(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 26
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 25/9/2012 12:33:42 PM   
kumar


Posts: 5227
Joined: 2/10/2005

Not watched the video and it doesnt concern me at all. I only feel sorry for those that have died needlessly in multiple protests. If anything this event highlights how idiotic these people really are.

_____________________________

"Darth Silas - I love Craig as Bond too. Genius. "- Jackmansgirl 15/7/2008

Last films watched:

The Road - 4/5
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(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 27
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 28/9/2012 2:29:55 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3815
Joined: 30/9/2005
There was another film made.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/channel-4-cancels-controversial-screening-of-islam-the-untold-story-documentary-after-presenter-tom-holland-is-threatened-8125641.html

_____________________________

Eddie: "Weve been burgaled"
Richie: You may have been, but I have never in my life. As a christian I am so tightly clenched, oh you mean burgaled
- - -
There were originally five horsemen of the apocalypse. Jack Bauer said he would travel by foot

(in reply to kumar)
Post #: 28
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 28/9/2012 4:32:30 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There was another film made.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/channel-4-cancels-controversial-screening-of-islam-the-untold-story-documentary-after-presenter-tom-holland-is-threatened-8125641.html


This was fucking ridiculous

(in reply to Woger)
Post #: 29
RE: Pakistan minister offers bounty - 28/9/2012 5:59:25 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
Even in the context of Traditional Orthodox Muslims being insecure humorless idiots, this is bloody idiotic.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 30
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