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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:34:20 AM

Rhubarb

Posts: 24405
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

Re: The Horror, it is interesting that even the horror films generally accepted into the Great Movies Cannon - The Exoricist, Bride of Frankenstein etc - are kind of missing. But I guess I'm not hugely suprised, either.

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Post #: 151

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:53:10 AM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

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Post #: 152

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:55:40 AM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

If they want to play with ideas of identity with nightmarish attachments they'd have been as well going with Spellbound. Vertigo wasn't even the first in Hitchcock's filmography to do it, let alone an early film that played on that theme.�Even films like Angel Heart have roots in 40s noir.

Just because it wasn't the first it doesn't mean it isn't one of the greatest or most influential. I don't think anyone would deny that Vertigo has it's own roots in 40's noir either.

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Post #: 153

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:55:42 AM

elab49

Posts: 52031
Joined: 1/10/2005

We can look forward to seeing what Del Toro's top 10 was maybe?

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Post #: 154

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:57:18 AM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

Some people just dont like horror tho. There'd only be maybe three in my own hypothetical 100. It's a divisive genre.

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Post #: 155

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:57:42 AM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

We can look forward to seeing what Del Toro's top 10 was maybe?�

Well exactly. Have to say some big contrasts between the directors poll and the more general one. Godfather goes down a lot between them

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Post #: 156

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:57:54 AM

rawlinson

Posts: 40625
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

There's stuff like Psycho and Mulholland Drive in the list, so there is some representation for horror.

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Post #: 157

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:58:24 AM

elab49

Posts: 52031
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

If they want to play with ideas of identity with nightmarish attachments they'd have been as well going with Spellbound. Vertigo wasn't even the first in Hitchcock's filmography to do it, let alone an early film that played on that theme. Even films like Angel Heart have roots in 40s noir.

Just because it wasn't the first it doesn't mean it isn't one of the greatest or most influential. I don't think anyone would deny that Vertigo has it's own roots in 40's noir either.

Indeed. But I see it more as a stop on the train, carrying forward the influences. Only, unlike the Arab world carrying forward the knowledge of the Greeks and bringing it back into Europe, it's Vertigo that gets the credit. Granted Spellbound isn't a great film itself, but you can see where the work Dali did on it filters through.

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Post #: 158

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 11:59:48 AM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

Some people just dont like horror tho. There'd only be maybe three in my own hypothetical 100. It's a divisive genre.

But we are talking 800+ critics/filmmakers etc - I would be very disappointed if over half of them didn't like horror full stop. In fact I would find that just as bad as people who say "I don't like musicals" and so on.

The genre is so varied I am not sure how one could say they hated it all.

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Post #: 159

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:03:03 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

There's stuff like Psycho and Mulholland Drive in the list, so there is some representation for horror.

Yeah I noted those ones - but they are on that edge, along with Lambs where it is sorta, kinda horror. I was hoping for a more explicit supernatural style film in there.

If Metropolis can get in, I don't see why Nosferatu couldn't for instance.

It isn't a big deal - but the continual under representation of horror is something which I hope will be adjusted as we move forward. I will be curious to see how things stand in ten years time.

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Post #: 160

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:13:06 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26923
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

What about Ugetsu? Not exactly horror, but the supernatural is there and it is not that different from the athmosphere of some Japanese ghost stories.

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Post #: 161

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:13:33 PM

matty_b

Posts: 13132
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.

I think it would be interesting if they voted in decades, rather than overall.

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Post #: 162

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:27:37 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

Some people just dont like horror tho. There'd only be maybe three in my own hypothetical 100. It's a divisive genre.

But we are talking 800+ critics/filmmakers etc - I would be very disappointed if over half of them didn't like horror full stop. In fact I would find that just as bad as people who say "I don't like musicals" and so on.

The genre is so varied I am not sure how one could say they hated it all.

I dont think it's a case of hating it. I just don't think that genre cinema is a priority for many of those who voted.

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Post #: 163

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:29:23 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

And that is a great shame to be honest.

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Post #: 164

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:29:58 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Although I can think of at least one critic who will have had it at the top of their list

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Post #: 165

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:31:51 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44
If Metropolis can get in, I don't see why Nosferatu couldn't for instance.

It's a shame that Nosferatu didnt make the cut, but there is a Murnau in the top ten (vote splitting maybe?). To be honest I was far more irked by the lack of The Last Laugh when it comes to Murnau, being that it introduced the medium to the unchained camera, which is up there at the very top of the list of "IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS WOT HAPPENED".

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Post #: 166

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:32:06 PM

homersimpson_esq

Posts: 19969
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

Some people just dont like horror tho. There'd only be maybe three in my own hypothetical 100. It's a divisive genre.

But we are talking 800+ critics/filmmakers etc - I would be very disappointed if over half of them didn't like horror full stop. In fact I would find that just as bad as people who say "I don't like musicals" and so on.

The genre is so varied I am not sure how one could say they hated it all.

I dont think it's a case of hating it. I just don't think that genre cinema is a priority for many of those who voted.

Oooh, the elitism thread is calling you...

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Post #: 167

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:36:02 PM

Qwerty Norris

Posts: 3227
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

I do wonder how different the list would be with an increased number of votes. Even if they just raised it to 20. All 10 is ever going to do is reinforce the same canon.

It's about bloody time they do that. Every time they do their best of the year poll it looks a complete mess with about 3-4 different things tied for 5th, 8th, or even 11th place (despite supposedly being a top ten). Have they not yet caught on to the idea that it looks a bit rubbish?

Plus, there's always 20 films a year worth talking about. Only including 10 just encourages them to be more disregarding.

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Post #: 168

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:36:49 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

And that is a great shame to be honest.

I don't really think that it is. While the prestigious nature of the S&S list is nice and whatnot, would the typical horror nut even care what S&S think? I'm sure an equivalent poll by someone like Fangoria would probably mean a lot more to them.

It's like when I got upset that my #1 film in my Empire top 500 list didn't make the list (Pierrot Le Fou): sure it was annoying, but in reflection my choice hardly reflected the remit of the publication or the consensus of the opinions gathered. Ergo, it wasn't worth complaining about.

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Post #: 169

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:36:57 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44
If Metropolis can get in, I don't see why Nosferatu couldn't for instance.

It's a shame that Nosferatu didnt make the cut, but there is a Murnau in the top ten (vote splitting maybe?). To be honest I was far more irked by the lack of The Last Laugh when it comes to Murnau, being that it introduced the medium to the unchained camera, which is up there at the very top of the list of "IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS WOT HAPPENED".

I suspect that would rate more highly in a "top ten most influential" film list rather than list of the "best" if that makes sense.

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Post #: 170

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:40:05 PM

rawlinson

Posts: 40625
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

There were 846 ballots, which means that Singin in the Rain didn't appear on 800 of the ballots. And it was placed at number 20. That's the biggest problem I have with the Sight & Sound poll. Over 30 of the films in the top 50 weren't voted for by at least 800 critics. Increasing the numbers they can vote for could actually make the list feel a little more definitive.

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Post #: 171

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:40:14 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

It sort of bugs me - I think there is a perception that horror is somehow a "lesser" genre for film. I know that there is only so many spaces for things, but I honestly wonder how much thought people ever give to even considering putting in a horror entry.

Some people just dont like horror tho. There'd only be maybe three in my own hypothetical 100. It's a divisive genre.

But we are talking 800+ critics/filmmakers etc - I would be very disappointed if over half of them didn't like horror full stop. In fact I would find that just as bad as people who say "I don't like musicals" and so on.

The genre is so varied I am not sure how one could say they hated it all.

I dont think it's a case of hating it. I just don't think that genre cinema is a priority for many of those who voted.

Oooh, the elitism thread is calling you...

Not sure if joking. What was elitist about that?

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)

Post #: 172

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:41:55 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

And that is a great shame to be honest.

I don't really think that it is. While the prestigious nature of the S&S list is nice and whatnot, would the typical horror nut even care what S&S think? I'm sure an equivalent poll by someone like Fangoria would probably mean a lot more to them.

It's like when I got upset that my #1 film in my Empire top 500 list didn't make the list (Pierrot Le Fou): sure it was annoying, but in reflection my choice hardly reflected the remit of the publication or the consensus of the opinions gathered. Ergo, it wasn't worth complaining about.

That is a tad unfair I think. It isn't about appeasing the "horror nuts" but recognising that horror has a place in cinematic history. It often was able to push out ideas which would be controversial, ahead of mainstream cinema.

I wouldn't expect Sight and Sound to be focused on it - but given that the poll is made of of critics and filmmakers, I just feel that (and your comments suggest I am not far off) it is seen as "lesser" to more mainstream fare and thus not worthy of featuring.

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Post #: 173

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:43:41 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

At the end of the day each person had to make their own choices within a limited number of slots. So that horror doesn't really raise its head doesn't shock me, but given that pretty much every other genre is represented in the top 50, it was just something to note.

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Post #: 174

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:45:43 PM

homersimpson_esq

Posts: 19969
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

I dont think it's a case of hating it. I just don't think that genre cinema is a priority for many of those who voted.

Oooh, the elitism thread is calling you...

Not sure if joking. What was elitist about that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I wouldn't expect Sight and Sound to be focused on it - but given that the poll is made of of critics and filmmakers, I just feel that (and your comments suggest I am not far off) it is seen as "lesser" to more mainstream fare and thus not worthy of featuring.

Was only partially joking, but that's how your comment came across...

< Message edited by homersimpson_esq -- 3/8/2012 12:46:10 PM >

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Post #: 175

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:53:59 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4206
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

I've missed shit loads overnight, so I'm just gonna pick up on the points that sparked my response mechanism most...

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

Welles acted in at least ten MUCH better films.

?

That IS one of them (seriously).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation
Malick is somewhat controversial even among critics, no? There are those who love him (I sure do) but he has some detractors among critics and academics.

Yep. I think Badlands is, probably, the only Malick film that 90% of both critics and audiences would agree is brilliant and worthy of praise. Everything else he's done splits viewers a lot more. Even Days of Heaven, which has spent the last 10-15 years gathering much more respect (having originally largely been considered by a lot of critics as a beautiful looking but completely empty and pointless piece of work), still has an army of detractors. And his more recent work - well, the cliched phrase "love it or hate it" can probably be applied to everything from Tree of Life (if not The New World) on. And I'm intrigued as to what four back-to-back and quickly shot Malick films will end up being like...

And onto PTA - long held, by me, as one of the most over rated directors working today. Boogie Nights bored me to tears and, opening sequence aside, I outright hated Magnolia. Punch Drunk Love annoyed me more because of Sandler than anything else. But There Will Be Blood - I'm with elab (and anyone else who doesn't like it). I DO think Daniel Day Lewis IS a great actor, but his (over)performance in TWBB is, to me, massively embarrassing to sit through. It's just the kind of saliva-spitting panto performance I hate and always have done. He seems to think he's on a theatre stage and needs to perform to the back of the room. Just dreadful.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 3/8/2012 12:54:22 PM >

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:54:16 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44
That is a tad unfair I think. It isn't about appeasing the "horror nuts" but recognising that horror has a place in cinematic history. It often was able to push out ideas which would be controversial, ahead of mainstream cinema.

I agree with the sentiment. It's a shame that some very important films weren't recognised, but that isn't an oversight tied solely in with horror. There are thousands of influential and important films missing from the list, but such is the nature of any list collated in this manner.

Funnily enough I did a Sight & Sound inspired publicly voted list here on the forums (I can't find it now unfortunately) and I remember everyone being surprised by how typical the eventual top ten was.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44
I wouldn't expect Sight and Sound to be focused on it - but given that the poll is made of of critics and filmmakers, I just feel that (and your comments suggest I am not far off) it is seen as "lesser" to more mainstream fare and thus not worthy of featuring.

I dont think there's any question of that. It's a shame, but I think that thats very much the case in many quarters.

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Post #: 177

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:55:52 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Was only partially joking, but that's how your comment came across...

Meh, you read it wrong.

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Post #: 178

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 12:59:10 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation
Malick is somewhat controversial even among critics, no? There are those who love him (I sure do) but he has some detractors among critics and academics.

Yep. I think Badlands is, probably, the only Malick film that 90% of both critics and audiences would agree is brilliant and worthy of praise. Everything else he's done splits viewers a lot more. Even Days of Heaven, which has spent the last 10-15 years gathering much more respect (having originally largely been considered by a lot of critics as a beautiful looking but completely empty and pointless piece of work), still has an army of detractors. And his more recent work - well, the cliched phrase "love it or hate it" can probably be applied to everything from Tree of Life (if not The New World) on. And I'm intrigued as to what four back-to-back and quickly shot Malick films will end up being like...

I think Malick's greatest problem is split voting tbh. I don't think there's one film to band around to push it up the chart (ala Vertigo for Hitch, Tokyo Story for Ozu or Kane for Welles). I do expect to see Tree Of Life make it's way in there in a couple of decades tho, but for me The New World is his best.

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Post #: 179

RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 3/8/2012 1:14:57 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4206
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
I do expect to see Tree Of Life make it's way in there in a couple of decades tho

Really?!?!?

That does surprise me. Not coming from you, but it surprises me that anyone at all would think that, given how absolutely flawed it is (and I'm saying that as a huge Malick fan and apologist). For me it's by far his weakest (dodgy "you were the sone I never had" thing between Nick Nolte and John Cusack, and the confusing tone of Woody Harrelson's ass being blown off aside, Thin Red Line gets my vote for his best), but he hasn't done a film which I've completely disliked. True, I haven't properly made up my mind about Tree of Life yet - I think I need to see it again (I've only seen it the once), but I don't think it can even be spoken in the same breath as any other of his (currently completed) films.

And just to pick up on the whole genre ignorance thing - it does annoy me that the upper echelon (/class) of critics tend to pretty much ignore genre film-making (and Sight & Sound are huge culprits, effectively splitting genre films away from what they consider to be "proper" films), when there are so many good examples of genre films which blow a lot of their top 10 clear out of the water (and I think most people on here would agree with me). Just two that spring to mind - Jaws and The Thing, a mainstream summer blockbuster and a gloopy splatterfest respectively. But Jaws has more heart, characterisation and brilliant dialogue than half the films in the S&S top ten, and The Thing, in my opinion, out-suspenses Hitch's best with ease. But then I say that as someone with a personal top list which covers cinema from all walks of life, from stupid dumb-ass comedy right up to Andrei Rublev.

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