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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:22:47 PM   
rick_7


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Joined: 30/9/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

I was actually put off more by the ideas stated that the films voted for were ones people admired rather than loved, and that they were films people only loved because they were told they had to love them. It feels like judging the people who do love those films and saying that they're somehow wrong for doing so. I mean all criticisms of any list basically end up as "These aren't the films I would have chosen" but I think there's ways to criticise that keep it about the films and ways that keep it about the voters.

Me?

Those weren't really the points I was trying to make, but I'm a bit sleepy and my back's sore, so I might not elaborate too much. If I'm contradicting myself below, it's because you're clever and good at arguing, and it'd be good if I could wriggle out of this one somehow.

a) Not admired-rather-than-loved, just prized certain virtues more obviously over others.
b) Not that they were told to love them, just that they may have been influenced by the recognised S&S poll canon.
c) People can love whatever they like. I was trying to explain some of my reservations of the list as a guide to the 50 "greatest" films.

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Post #: 91
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:22:52 PM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 7993
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Pierrot le fou is a more purely fun film than the entire works of Spielberg rolled together.










Get real.


Insightful as ever.


I'm not egotistical enough to claim or assume I offer insight to anyone, I just post my reactions to things be they films, games. sporting events or complete nonsense.


If that were true surely you'd be in an infinite loop posting reactions to your own posts .

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 2/8/2012 5:23:50 PM >


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Post #: 92
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:33:29 PM   
rawlinson

 

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From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rick_7

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

I was actually put off more by the ideas stated that the films voted for were ones people admired rather than loved, and that they were films people only loved because they were told they had to love them. It feels like judging the people who do love those films and saying that they're somehow wrong for doing so. I mean all criticisms of any list basically end up as "These aren't the films I would have chosen" but I think there's ways to criticise that keep it about the films and ways that keep it about the voters.

Me?

Those weren't really the points I was trying to make, but I'm a bit sleepy and my back's sore, so I might not elaborate too much. If I'm contradicting myself below, it's because you're clever and good at arguing, and it'd be good if I could wriggle out of this one somehow.

a) Not admired-rather-than-loved, just prized certain virtues more obviously over others.
b) Not that they were told to love them, just that they may have been influenced by the recognised S&S poll canon.
c) People can love whatever they like. I was trying to explain some of my reservations of the list as a guide to the 50 "greatest" films.



I think a was Qwerty and b was Badir, but both of them just made me think "Well, no. You just don't like them as much as the people who voted for them". And there's absolutely nothing wrong with people not liking Tarr or Godard or anyone, it just felt like judgements on the people who do like them. You were just the hanky clutching son of a bitch begging for films that make you weep. I agree 100% they were influenced by the recognised canon, on the basis of avoiding split votes by choosing the Hitchcock or Chaplin that you think most people will vote for rather than your personal favourite that might not make it in (see that Homer? You. Fuck One. ) I'm sorry if I seem like I'm coming across as overly pissy about this, just reading through the thread made me think that you all must think people like me are not really as genuine then because I love most of these films far more than the Spielbergs and Casablancas.

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Post #: 93
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:34:25 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Pierrot le fou is a more purely fun film than the entire works of Spielberg rolled together.










Get real.


Insightful as ever.


I'm not egotistical enough to claim or assume I offer insight to anyone, I just post my reactions to things be they films, games. sporting events or complete nonsense.


If that were true surely you'd be in an infinite loop posting reactions to your own posts .



(in reply to Harry Tuttle)
Post #: 94
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:39:07 PM   
rick_7


Posts: 6151
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You were just the hanky clutching son of a bitch begging for films that make you weep.

Ah yes, that sounds like me.

quote:

I agree 100% they were influenced by the recognised canon, on the basis of avoiding split votes by choosing the Hitchcock or Chaplin that you think most people will vote for rather than your personal favourite that might not make it in (see that Homer? You. Fuck One. ) I'm sorry if I seem like I'm coming across as overly pissy about this, just reading through the thread made me think that you all must think people like me are not really as genuine then because I love most of these films far more than the Spielbergs and Casablancas.

No, that hadn't entered my head - after all, we get your impassioned defences of porn films, and movies in which Ray Milland has a weird childhood dance performed at him, on the boards.

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Post #: 95
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:44:51 PM   
rawlinson

 

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Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rick_7

No, that hadn't entered my head - after all, we get your impassioned defences of porn films, and movies in which Ray Milland has a weird childhood dance performed at him, on the boards.


Milland was performing the dance, but I take your point.

I do realise I probably made that last part seem a bit full of myself. I wasn't suggesting people were linking this thread back to me. I just meant that in my own threads, when I post about Tarkovsky or Godard and then dismiss all but about five films of Spielberg, people must think I'm not being genuine if the general view is that they're not really directors people love.

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Post #: 96
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:45:23 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10889
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Pierrot le fou is a more purely fun film than the entire works of Spielberg rolled together.










Get real.


Insightful as ever.


I'm not egotistical enough to claim or assume I offer insight to anyone, I just post my reactions to things be they films, games. sporting events or complete nonsense.


If that were true surely you'd be in an infinite loop posting reactions to your own posts .


I don't disagree, but replying to myself would just be nuts.


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Post #: 97
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:56:26 PM   
Harry Tuttle


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Post #: 98
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 5:59:03 PM   
paul_ie86


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Am I allowed to have Le mépris as my favourite Godard?

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Post #: 99
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:01:35 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
First things first, are we allowed to like Godard? Then we'll deal with your love for his worst film.

Btw, everyone gets I'm being hyperbolic to point out how ridiculous it is to say people don't really like these films, yeah?

Edit - I'm in a really pissy mood today.

< Message edited by rawlinson -- 2/8/2012 6:02:04 PM >

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Post #: 100
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:03:38 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
How about this then - I have NEVER cried at a film.

...except Short Circuit 2 when Johnny 5 got the shit kicked out of him. I bawled my eyes out at the cinema at the tender age of 9.

Oh, and Trainspotting, but I was only crying at that cos it was so fucking awful.

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:05:39 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
First things first, are we allowed to like Godard?


Someone spark up the Dpp signal to make sure, but I'm pretty sure that the answer is now, by law, no with the exception of Breathless. The penalty for breaking this law is having your cock and balls chopped off, or summat.

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:06:29 PM   
rawlinson

 

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From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
You know, everyone mocks Gimli's taste. How the fuck does Badir avoid it?

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Post #: 103
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:07:23 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10889
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quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

How about this then - I have NEVER cried at a film.

...except Short Circuit 2 when Johnny 5 got the shit kicked out of him. I bawled my eyes out at the cinema at the tender age of 9.



Even I didn't cry at that part.




I just put my hands over my eyes and asked my mom to fast forward that bit.

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Post #: 104
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:09:02 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
You know, everyone mocks Gimli's taste. How the fuck does Badir avoid it?


Oh, I've not avoided it. It's just been debated to the point of death (more than once) years ago.

I just like to remind people every now and again.


...I'm not saying I like Short Circuit 2, mind...

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:09:41 PM   
Rhubarb


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From: No Direction Home
I cry a fair amount at films. Actually not as much lately. But then I've watched less I suppose.


The list is fine, as ever, for what it is. I'm pleased TPOJOA makes the top ten, sad no Kurosawa in the top ten (though Rashomon would be better than Seven Samurai anyway) and its nice to see Godard have so many entries (although I'm not a giant fan of Historie(s) du cinema anyway). There isn't that much across the fifty that I actively dislike, and a few I've still not seen.

As for Vertigo/Kane, I had a feeling Kane would be dethroned, and while I prefer Kane to Vertigo (Vertigo is great, but I would put four or five Hitch's ahead of it, let alone Welles stuff) it is probably healthy to have a change and Kane will probably benefit from losing a bit of that GREATEST FILM EVER shine that seems to mean people approach the film differently that other classics.

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quote:

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Post #: 106
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:09:48 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Those who never cry should watch Andy and April's Fancy Party.

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Post #: 107
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:11:27 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
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I came VERY close to crying once in my more mature years when I first saw L'Ours (The Bear). Does that count?

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:12:02 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb
Kane will probably benefit from losing a bit of that GREATEST FILM EVER shine that seems to mean people approach the film differently that other classics.


Hopefully. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen say they won't watch it because they don't like that kind of film. I'm not even sure what kind of film they think it is.

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Post #: 109
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:15:47 PM   
great_badir


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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
As I said, I despise Kane. Always have done. And don't get me started on The Magnificent Ambersons. Welles wrote, directed and acted in at least ten MUCH better films. In my opinion.

I have a particular soft spot for F for Fake (which I acknowledge is a very personal preference), but top trumps easily go to The Trial, Touch of Evil and The Stranger.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 2/8/2012 6:16:41 PM >


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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:24:28 PM   
paul_ie86


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F For Fake is my favourite Welles.

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:24:57 PM   
directorscut


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F for Fake may have topped Citizen Kane if it was 90 minutes of Welles performing magic tricks. Sadly, it wasn't.

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:29:40 PM   
Rhubarb


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From: No Direction Home
I could watch Welles read the phonebook in all honesty, and I like pretty much all of his directed works (It is interesting to see Ambersons fall from grace in the S&S lists btw) but I think Kane probably is just about his best, but I love Touch of Evil, Chimes at Midnight, F For Fake, The Trial etc. They are all great.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

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RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:44:27 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
It feels like judging the people who do love those films and saying that they're somehow wrong for doing so.


That works the other way, too, for criticising people for hating a film. /boonmee /peppermint /winnipeg



quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

Welles acted in at least ten MUCH better films.




?


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Post #: 114
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:48:05 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
It feels like judging the people who do love those films and saying that they're somehow wrong for doing so.


That works the other way, too, for criticising people for hating a film. /boonmee /peppermint /winnipeg






That's not fair, you're ignoring the part where I also attack you for the shit films you do like. Love, Actually/Sound of Music/Forrest Gump.

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Post #: 115
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:50:41 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
It feels like judging the people who do love those films and saying that they're somehow wrong for doing so.


That works the other way, too, for criticising people for hating a film. /boonmee /peppermint /winnipeg






That's not fair, you're ignoring the part where I also attack you for the shit films you do like. Love, Actually/Sound of Music/Forrest Gump.



The part where you judge me for the films I like and saying I am somehow wrong for doing so?

That part?




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Post #: 116
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 6:53:10 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Yeah, but you have awful taste. Just awful. Sometimes a person's taste is so bad that mocking them is a way of helping them.

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Post #: 117
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 7:00:31 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Yeah, but you have awful taste. Just awful. Sometimes a person's taste is so bad that mocking them is a way of helping them.


The problem with that, right, is that every now and again one comes across someone who, against all odds, and contrary to everything that seems logical, actually has an opinion that is absolutely, categorically wrong. Like, all the time, on everything. Most people have subjective opinions, but like, this person is objectively wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

You are one of these people.

I'm sorry. I didn't want to have to tell you like this.

You'll probably complain and say this isn't fair, but that would be your opinion and, as just explained, that would be wrong.

I'm glad this gave us the opportunity to have this discussion. It's about time someone said something, tbh.




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Post #: 118
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 7:07:47 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Yeah, but you have awful taste. Just awful. Sometimes a person's taste is so bad that mocking them is a way of helping them.


The problem with that, right, is that every now and again one comes across someone who, against all odds, and contrary to everything that seems logical, actually has an opinion that is absolutely, categorically wrong. Like, all the time, on everything. Most people have subjective opinions, but like, this person is objectively wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

You are one of these people.

I'm sorry. I didn't want to have to tell you like this.

You'll probably complain and say this isn't fair, but that would be your opinion and, as just explained, that would be wrong.

I'm glad this gave us the opportunity to have this discussion. It's about time someone said something, tbh.






So you don't want my vote for Taxi Driver then? Because I'm always wrong.

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Post #: 119
RE: Sight & Sound Poll 2012 - 2/8/2012 9:38:17 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 4000
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Have to be honest, I'm a bit disappointed about a lot of the discussion going on here because it's really striking me as reverse snobbery, which we don't often get in this forum. Cinema isn't just a storytelling medium, the desire for a narrative pushes the majority of the work made into narrative fiction, but cinema has the capacity to be something other than that.


Of course it isn't and you're making assumptions over my indifference towards Godard. For the record I don't dislike all the work of his that I've seen, I just find it deeply irritating that his body of work seems to be the most celebrated by cinephiles, whilst others of equal (or in my opinion, better) talent haven't been mentioned. We have 4 of his efforts in that list, yet there's no Bunuel, Lean, Powell/Pressburger, Fassbinder, Wenders, Herzog, Haneke etc. I know you can't please everyone, but I can't help but find some of the inclusions rather predictable & disappointing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

It can be prose or poetry. There seems to be a lot of assumptions going on along the lines of because some of you don't love these films, it means nobody else really can either. Which is a bit shitty.


It's also wrong. I never said that. You're assuming there.

The Bela Tarr one is the exception, but that's only because his work is an extremely acquired taste & I find it a bit frustrating that an effort of his made it on the list, whilst the efforts of the names above didn't. Again for the record, I like the stuff of his that I've seen - but obviously I don't love them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Because if someone posted here and said that those of you who are more concerned with films that hit the emotions don't really love those films, you're just having your emotions manipulated, you'd all be really pissed off, and rightly so. So why is it ok to do it the other way? I mean why is there so much emphasis on a need for cinema to be fun, for example? I know much of that comes from most of us developing a love for cinema when we're young and more likely to be watching more escapist cinema, but we're adults now. Surely judging cinema as being worse for not dealing directly with the heart is just as blinded as judging it as being worse for not dealing directly with the brain?


This is my problem with lists, either by S&S or the publication that facilitates this website. One operates by the brain, the other by the heart. For me personally, neither really suffices. In an ideal world, I'd like to see an amalgamation of the two. But we don't tend to. It's one or another. Commercial or critical. That's where the frustration or snidey remarks come from. Not something slightly insidious which you seem to be implying.

Additionally. Haneke, as I previously mentioned, is one of my favourite film-makers - and you'd be hard-pressed to find a colder one than him. So to assume that I need films to be constantly emotive to be engaged, is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Do people run in to the typical Empire list and say that voters only put Star Wars, Se7en or Raiders so high because they haven't seen enough other films to be able to judge that they're not that special? Criticise the films all you want, put the criticism of the voters is a bit unfair.


The criticism is born because S&S's list is largely predictable (for me anyway), in the same way that the next Empire list will be predictable. That's all there is to it really.

And to clarify, there's a good few number of films on that list that I love. I just wished it had room for a few more surprises (and obviously, less Godard).

< Message edited by Qwerty Norris -- 2/8/2012 9:42:48 PM >


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2. No
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4. Behind the Candelabra
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9. The Place Beyond the Pines
10. Wreck-it Ralph

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