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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises

 
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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:29:20 AM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1164
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


Well, he hasn't even been formally charged yet but it's unlikely this will go to trial.



Out of curiosity, why do you think this?

(in reply to DancingClown)
Post #: 181
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:41:11 AM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM


quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking


and by the way human nature is the same as its been since the dawn of time, dont fool yourself that it isnt.



I think we're a bit more complex in our reasoning than monkeys these days. Just because one individual decides to behave like animal, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same.

An effective legal system is one of the cornerstones of any modern civilisation, shaped by thousands of years of jurisprudence. It has to be fair and impartial, no matter the crime and no matter how long it takes for justice to be as effective as it can be.



Just to play devil's advocate slightly, wouldn't the existence of criminal law suggest that human behaviour has to be kept in check?


It does and, yes, crime is an ugly facet of modern human behaviour. I won't pretend it doesn't exist.

I was just trying to emphasise the importance of an effective and impartial justice system on society. It shapes everything from the bottom up, in my opinion.

As Dostoyevsky once wrote, 'the degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.'

So when people say to me 'HANGINGS TOO GOOD FOR 'EM' etc., as if they were on the comments section of our nation's favourite red top tabloid, I find always find myself trying to better inform them of the importance of a fair justice and humane penal system and what it means for society as a whole.

This agrees with the statistics, I believe.


(in reply to SWOTBM)
Post #: 182
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:52:18 AM   
matty_b


Posts: 14580
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

An interesting "eye-witness" interview, here.


There is no facepalm big enough for that.


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Post #: 183
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:53:26 AM   
Chief


Posts: 7778
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee
I think the death penalty would be better discussed in the Sunday night debate thread.

Once whoever is found guilty of this crime, the death penalty is pretty certain no?

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 184
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 11:01:03 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
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Colorado seems to be considered de facto abolitionist - it's in their legislation but they just don't execute people.


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quote:

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(in reply to Chief)
Post #: 185
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 11:09:54 AM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4262
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


Well, he hasn't even been formally charged yet but it's unlikely this will go to trial.



Out of curiosity, why do you think this?



Of course, I can't be sure of anything and have a very limited knowledge of the law. But I would naturally assume that given the overwhelming evidence against him that he would be encouraged to plead guilty? But then I guess there's always 'not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility', so yeah, who knows? I guess what I meant was that I couldn't see some Anders Breivik style epic trial coming out of this with "the suspect" attempting to claim some kind of huge ideological or political motive as a defense. But of course, as you imply, who knows?

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Post #: 186
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 11:12:42 AM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

I think the death penalty would be better discussed in the Sunday night debate thread.

Once whoever is found guilty of this crime, the death penalty is pretty certain no?


Apparently Colorado hasn't executed anyone since 1997. That said, there are currently three people on death row there.

I guess they'll consult the victims' families in the decision also. I could see him certainly going on death row.

(in reply to Chief)
Post #: 187
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:07:26 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1164
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Of course, I can't be sure of anything and have a very limited knowledge of the law. But I would naturally assume that given the overwhelming evidence against him that he would be encouraged to plead guilty? But then I guess there's always 'not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility', so yeah, who knows? I guess what I meant was that I couldn't see some Anders Breivik style epic trial coming out of this with "the suspect" attempting to claim some kind of huge ideological or political motive as a defense. But of course, as you imply, who knows?


That's a reasonable position. Far better than the conspiracy version whereby those controlling him will get rid of him before he reaches trial. I was wondering if you'd raise the competence to stand trial issue which will probably be the first hurdle in getting him before a jury.

The question of guilt is probably never going to be tested as the evidence is, as you say, overwhelming.

It is, however, the defence counsel's job to get the best outcome for their client and in this case, should he be competent to stand trial, that would be not guilty by reason of insanity.

It is hard to successfully plead at the best of times: in Colorado it has to be shown that the defendant either wasn't aware that what they were doing was wrong or that they were under some sort of irresistible impulse which compelled them to act. It is strictly applied test and Colorado differs from most jurisdictions in that the burden of proof is on the State to show he was not legally insane: in most places the defence has to show he was.

This is important because the standard of proof required by the State is the criminal standard: beyond reasonable doubt, whereas if the burden were on the defence it would be to the lesser civil standard. What the defence has do is establish that there was reasonable doubt as to his sanity (still a tall order as there is a presumption of sanity which must be rebutted) which is far less onerous a task than showing it was more likely that not that he was insane.

However in cases like this it down to the jury and juries are notoriously fickle; especially in such emotive, high profile cases. It may be that the defence will opt to attempt to take them out of the equation by seeking an agreement with the prosecution to plead guilty in exchange for the death penalty being dropped as a potential punishment. This would be more likely in a state where an execution is more apt to actually take place, but the option is still there. If the prosecution was amenable.

And with evidence this damning there is little reason for them to make such a bargain.


(in reply to DancingClown)
Post #: 188
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:10:00 PM   
Chief


Posts: 7778
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee
Wait a minute, conspiracy version? You've got to be fucking kidding.

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 189
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:17:53 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4262
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot
Wouldn't the sheer amount of apparent pre-meditation and plotting applied to this crime make a defense of 'insanity' incredibly difficult to prove, or even to just persuade as a defense argument? Or might it have the opposite effect?

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Post #: 190
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:22:18 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
Joined: 1/10/2005
The insanity defence isn't just a 'moment of madness' - there are different types of insanity.

Several of the 'experts' were talking about a psychotic break, linking it back to his dropping out. That can be an ongoing acute episode.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to DancingClown)
Post #: 191
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:46:37 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1164
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief

Wait a minute, conspiracy version? You've got to be fucking kidding.


There is already scaremongering on the libertarian side that this will be used as a precept to increase gun control. Usually with the slippery slope argument in full force. Some are even getting annoyed that they won't be allowed to dress up as Batman in their local screening as most cinema chains have stated that no face coverings will be allowed in their theatres.

Couple that with the frankly absurd notions that more armed men in the cinema would have indisputably meant less bodies coming out of it and you have all the ingredients necessary for the right wing nut-jobs to conjure a liberal conspiracy to, "take away our guns!" It operates in the same way the (predominantly but not exclusively) left wing loonies have managed to convince themselves 9/11 was part of a huge right wing conspiracy to wage war on the Middle East and steal all the oil.

Crack-pot conspiracists exist right across the political spectrum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Wouldn't the sheer amount of apparent pre-meditation and plotting applied to this crime make a defense of 'insanity' incredibly difficult to prove, or even to just persuade as a defense argument? Or might it have the opposite effect?


Insanity is always hard to prove, but none of the plotting and pre-meditation would necessarily defeat it.

The pre-meditation could be part of an ongoing abnormality of the mind. For insanity there doesn't have to be a sudden break with reality: that is for diminished responsibility and its siblings. It can be an ongoing thing leading to particular, in this case tragic, outcome.

(in reply to Chief)
Post #: 192
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 5:34:29 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
Why the hell as a society do the Americans make assault weapons available to buy? Are people planning on defending their homes from 20 burglars attacking simultaneously or something or possibly an invasion of terrorists? I think Clinton had a ban on them but GW Bush (rather unsuprisingly) let this bill lapse.

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 193
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 5:57:34 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3816
Joined: 30/9/2005
No, a lot of them think they need guns to defend against tyranny (some times it's the person they didn't vote for). It's a combination of ignorance, paranoia, narcissism and small dick syndrome.

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Post #: 194
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 6:07:56 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978

frankly absurd notions that more armed men in the cinema would have indisputably meant less bodies coming out of it


I love the idea that they'd have to decide at the door of the cinema who the OK people to take guns in are and who aren't. Better none of them get to take them in.

A lesson the US gun control lobby is deaf to.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 195
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:47:29 PM   
Phubbs


Posts: 658
Joined: 3/4/2012
Now I'm no American but what do you guys all think about this Alex Jones fella? I know nothing myself other than he seems to be someone who believes his US government is the behind the shooting and other incidents. I must admit I've always found certain things a bit unusual such as the WTC attacks but who knows.

Personally I wouldn't trust the US government to watch my car but what do the Americans think on here?

It is funny how gun sales how doubled since the shooting, makes you wonder hehe.

http://www.infowars.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAlexJonesChannel

http://www.infowars.com/gun-sales-spike-by-almost-double-after-batman-massacre/

Should Americans give up their guns?? hot potatoe in your country it seems.

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 196
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 10:58:29 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
Joined: 1/10/2005
Well, it's obviously bollocks. Right wing nut is, I believe, his official Google term. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Phubbs)
Post #: 197
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 11:02:22 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phubbs

I must admit I've always found certain things a bit unusual such as the WTC attacks.



Thought it was an everyday occurrence myself.

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Post #: 198
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 11:02:29 PM   
MonsterCat


Posts: 7934
Joined: 24/3/2011
From: St. Albans, Hertfordshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phubbs

Now I'm no American but what do you guys all think about this Alex Jones fella?



He is a conspiracy theorist fruitcake.

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Post #: 199
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 12:00:02 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
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From: Punishment Park
Not this. Please not this again.

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Post #: 200
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 12:41:00 AM   
Phubbs


Posts: 658
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I'm curious why people think other folk with conspiracy theories are nuts. I'm not a conspiracy theorist myself but sometimes it does make you wonder, who can say.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 201
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 12:56:57 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
Joined: 1/10/2005
Makes you wonder based on what evidence, though?

Some conspiracy theorists might throw things in that make people wonder depending on what they're fantasising about. But this one? A shooting 'staged' by the President? Can I ask what about that makes you wonder?


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Phubbs)
Post #: 202
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 1:11:25 AM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
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From: Chair
Christian Bale visits victims in hospital, proves that he is awesome.

http://batman-news.com/2012/07/24/christian-bale-visits-victims-of-aurora-colorado-theater-shooting/

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Post #: 203
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 1:58:50 AM   
NinjaShortbread212


Posts: 4542
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From: Edinburger, Scottyland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

Christian Bale visits victims in hospital, proves that he is awesome.

http://batman-news.com/2012/07/24/christian-bale-visits-victims-of-aurora-colorado-theater-shooting/



Was actually going to add that myself, Spalds. Good link.


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Post #: 204
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 2:04:38 AM   
Phubbs


Posts: 658
Joined: 3/4/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Makes you wonder based on what evidence, though?

Some conspiracy theorists might throw things in that make people wonder depending on what they're fantasising about. But this one? A shooting 'staged' by the President? Can I ask what about that makes you wonder?




Well I dunno exactly hehe but knowing the dastardly US government anything is possible they did cover up the WTC attacks pretty well

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Post #: 205
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 9:18:21 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
They are nuts - that even in the face of overwhelming evidence they insist on silly things like the planes being holograms etc

It is really no different from cults which put forward a world view which can't be backed up by evidence. They distort and muddy the waters and it is horrible that they are bringing their posion to this shooting. As for 9/11 it is discussed here in some detail -

http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=3148896

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Post #: 206
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 9:44:34 AM   
Chief


Posts: 7778
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee
Just a wee quote from that website:

“Was James Holmes engaged in a real-life Jason Bourne TREADSTONE project that broke down and resulted in deadly consequences in Aurora, Colorado?”

Says it all really. Fucking idiots.

(in reply to Dpp1978)
Post #: 207
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 10:05:03 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
He is essentially a militia mentality nut job who sadly has a lot of support from similar nut jobs (the take my gun from my cold dead hand types).

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Post #: 208
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 10:08:21 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54624
Joined: 1/10/2005
And somewhat sick, given he's making up crap to desperately claw at the publicity generated by a lot of dead people. Him, and those who give his self-serving publicity any credence.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 209
RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 25/7/2012 10:23:08 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
I don't actually believe that Jones thinks this stuff is real. He is playing to a gullible audience, and simply gives them what they want to hear while also offering a range of merchindise that you can buy from his site.

In a way...that is even worse.

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Post #: 210
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