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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 23/7/2012 11:09:05 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11281
Joined: 30/9/2005

So what aren't we allowed to say in this thread? If we're going to get Empire in trouble for saying that he might have shot people is it worth keeping this open?

[EDIT]

Playing it safe... I think

[EDIT2]

Genuine question by the way, I don't want this place getting in trouble.

< Message edited by Hood_Man -- 23/7/2012 11:20:34 PM >

(in reply to Spaldron)

Post #: 151

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 23/7/2012 11:34:52 PM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

saw him today looking dazed and confused, it did strike me that he might be putting it on a bit, i didnt feel much sympathy for him tho, having said that fuck knows whats going on in his head, was it the maddest cry for help ever ? or is he just plain evil ? either way hes fucked.....what i dont understand is why him and people like him arent executed instantly...why waste hundreds of thousands of pounds of tax payers money keeping them fed and watered for the rest of their lives?
If it was up to me i'd have them humanely shot ( i know that might sound ironic but if its good enough for cattle then its good enough for these fuckers)

or if thats too 'harsh' send them all to some remote island to fend for themselves.

or let the families of the victims decide their fate.

You don't understand why people like him aren't executed instantly? Without trial?

Really?

*seethes*

Thousands of years of civilisation and still some people wish we were in the Dark Ages. Unbelievable.

Instantly after the trial, and yes i mean ONLY if hes found guilty.

and by the way human nature is the same as its been since the dawn of time, dont fool yourself that it isnt.

Thanks for the insight, but I'd disagree entirely with that.

I think we're a bit more complex in our reasoning than monkeys these days. Just because one individual decides to behave like animal, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same.

An effective legal system is one of the cornerstones of any modern civilisation, shaped by thousands of years of jurisprudence. It has to be fair and impartial, no matter the crime and no matter how long it takes for justice to be as effective as it can be.

I don't want to be like lesser civilised countries, thanks.

< Message edited by jon5000 -- 23/7/2012 11:44:54 PM >

(in reply to donethinking)

Post #: 152

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 23/7/2012 11:54:26 PM

steffols

Posts: 7622
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland

I agree with Jon, aside from the mental hair, he does not look like your run of the mill psycho mass murderer. But in turn that just makes it more terrifying in that you genuinely don't know whats going on in peoples heads. It was rather unsettling watching him be drowsy. I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to achieve by that, but it freaked me out.

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Post #: 153

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 23/7/2012 11:57:47 PM

donethinking

Posts: 430
Joined: 24/4/2012
From: Haggisland

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

Thanks for the insight, but I'd disagree entirely with that.

I think we're a bit more complex in our reasoning than monkeys these days. Just because one individual decides to behave like animal, that doesn't makes it okay for others to do the same.

An effective legal system is one of the cornerstones of any modern civilisation, shaped by thousands of years of jurisprudence. It has to be fair and impartial, no matter the crime and no matter how long it takes for justice to be as effective as it can be.

I don't want to be like lesser civilised countries, thanks.

Do you still have the death penalty in the States ? which country has the most mass killings of this type ?
at what point in history did crimes against humanity stop ? I must have missed something..

One individual ? are you having a bloody laugh ?

(in reply to jon5000)

Post #: 154

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:05:34 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

Just because he lives in a country with the death penalty in most states doesn't mean he agrees with it. You appear to be advocating the US death penalty while also pointing out the number of mass killings reported there. Surely you'd surmise from that that the death penalty doesn't quite 'work'?

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 24/7/2012 12:12:12 AM >

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Post #: 155

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:13:58 AM

jon5000

Posts: 1087
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

Oh woops, sorry I live in a UK town which is abbreviated to LA

I think when I joined, this being a film forum I thought it would be *highly* amusing to put that. Really should change it sorry!

But yeah, I thought this chap was an individual, no? He's the only one in the dock?

You're the one suggesting we should 'humanely shoot him as quick as possible.'

I just find that rationale a bit, well, ignorant of what the justice process stands for in society.

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 156

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:21:30 AM

Dpp1978

Posts: 1012
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I should also point out that, however much evidence is against this individual given the circumstances of the crime and arrest, it should be pointed out that "innocent until proven guilty" still holds true, and that commentary against him until such time as he has been found guilty in a court of law remain allegations, and should be identified as such. Stating "he's a killer" is libellous until the verdict is given.

I'm sure DPP can say that more succinctly and accurately than I.

Anything I could add would only serve to muddy the waters as it is far from clear cut.

If the moderation team says something is off limits and to refrain from saying it, that is good enough for me. Compared to other fora I have posted on, this one is moderated with a refreshingly light touch: there is very little which is truly off limits.

If they want to play safe with regard to potential civil liabilities that is their prerogative: discretion is the better part of valour to use the overused maxim. We can choose to comply or post elsewhere.

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)

Post #: 157

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:25:37 AM

SWOTBM

Posts: 1955
Joined: 6/5/2007

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

and by the way human nature is the same as its been since the dawn of time, dont fool yourself that it isnt.

I think we're a bit more complex in our reasoning than monkeys these days. Just because one individual decides to behave like animal, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same.

An effective legal system is one of the cornerstones of any modern civilisation, shaped by thousands of years of jurisprudence. It has to be fair and impartial, no matter the crime and no matter how long it takes for justice to be as effective as it can be.

Just to play devil's advocate slightly, wouldn't the existence of criminal law suggest that human behaviour has to be kept in check?

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Post #: 158

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:36:40 AM

homersimpson_esq

Posts: 19969
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I should also point out that, however much evidence is against this individual given the circumstances of the crime and arrest, it should be pointed out that "innocent until proven guilty" still holds true, and that commentary against him until such time as he has been found guilty in a court of law remain allegations, and should be identified as such. Stating "he's a killer" is libellous until the verdict is given.

I'm sure DPP can say that more succinctly and accurately than I.

Anything I could add would only serve to muddy the waters as it is far from clear cut.

If the moderation team says something is off limits and to refrain from saying it, that is good enough for me. Compared to other fora I have posted on, this one is moderated with a refreshingly light touch: there is very little which is truly off limits.

If they want to play safe with regard to potential civil liabilities that is their prerogative: discretion is the better part of valour to use the overused maxim. We can choose to comply or post elsewhere.

, but bravo. I shall start using fora as the plural now.

I think, to be safe, it's easiest when discussing the motivations of the killer to do just that. Refer to the killer. Clearly there was one, and it is allegedly this man under discussion here. But respect the law, and the realisation that "innocent until proven guilty" applies even on cases which seem far more obvious than others. If one is saying outright "x is a killer", or "x deserves the death penalty because he killed those people", then that's the sort of thing to avoid. Just say the killer deserves the death penalty. People can draw their own conclusions. (I don't think anyone deserves the death penalty. But that's another discussion for another time.)

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Post #: 159

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 12:49:03 AM

boaby

Posts: 2788
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

Someone once described civilised government as being only possible if the state has a monopoly on violence within its borders. I forget who, where and when but I'm fairly sure it was in relation to the development of states in the late medieval period. Maybe not relevant, or maybe it is.

Does any one or body have a monopoly on violence in the U.S? Well, does any one or body have such a thing in any modern state? Not really. But a lot of them make a decent fist on limiting the degree of violence members of a state can inflict on others. The goal is not so much to have a monopoly on violence but to get as close as possible to no violence within a state. Unsurprisingly, a lot of states have realised that prohibiting or rigidly regulating the more destructive creations of mankind might be a plan.

America is phucked up in this regard. Most people in most modern states are happy enough to elect representatives who are then given the responsibility of ensuring violence is not perpetrated against them. Americans do this electing stuff and yet wish to have the right to do the job themselves. They appear to want their own personal state over which they have a monopoly of violence and yet glorify the wider states in which they live, despite these states apparently unsuccessfully sating the desire to be an individual state. Moreover, the boundaries of these individual states are also individual. This means a lot of states whose borders overlap, monopolies no more. This desire to be a one person state that many appear to have results in an antiquated part of their sacred bit of secular paper being cherished as if it vital in order to live in freedom. It is not. What many perceive to be the solution appears to many others to be the problem.

Of course, most modern states realise that seeking to eliminate the perpetration of violent acts in their jurisdiction does not require the state itself to perpetrate violence. It is the desire to have the ability to do violence in one's own state that an apparent majority of Americans have. So they themselves want the power, means and justification to dole out death, they want their States to have it, and they want their federal government to have it.

Trust issues.

Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of these periodic massacres occur in States with the death penalty?

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Post #: 160

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 2:02:10 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quint

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

Just seen the pictures of him in Court.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18957991

Is it just me or does he absolutely not have the face of a killer? He just looks so harmless and passive. Aside from the hair. I actually find myself feeling a bit sorry for him in that picture, given that he'll likely face the death penalty.

I know that doesn't excuse what he's done... but it just makes me feel a bit odd about it all. Normally I see pictures of these people and they look like remorseless psychopaths. He just looks mixed up. Like he needs help.

I was listening to a podcast from 'This American Life' where they interviewed a criminal psychologist and he mentioned that the smartest psychotics are the ones that can act out emotions - they may not feel them but they understand how one would look or act if they were felt, and so can mimic the emotion. I am not saying that is what is happening here, but it is certainly food for thought. It's hard to know what is going on in any one's head, let alone a person capable of such slaughter. We know he is intelligent, what with his studies and the planning of his actions, so it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest he might be capable of acting remorseful regardless of his feelings. Tears of a crocodile and all that...

This, I watched it earlier and I immediately thought "he's just putting that face on".

He's just acting it out. Look at all the other photos of him jon5000 if you feel sorry for him. Why don't you go give him a hug?

Quint makes a very good point. You eally cannot judge a book by its cover, because the outside doesn't always let on what's going on internally.

Quint has really hit the nail on the head here.

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Post #: 161

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 2:04:55 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sutty

ITN news broadcaster just said of Holmes "With his hair dyed orange like screen character the Joker".

What do you expect from ITN? Bunch of sensationalist hacks with ratings to grab.

And perhaps colour-blind, to boot.

EDT: For the record, he most resembles Sideshow Bob!

< Message edited by NinjaShortbread212 -- 24/7/2012 3:00:24 AM >

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Post #: 162

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 5:11:46 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

An interesting "eye-witness" interview, here.

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Post #: 163

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 7:59:41 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

The problem with these gun-loving NRA types is that no matter how many of these kinds of massacres there are they will never be swayed, seeing the tragedies as a kind of unfortunate adjunct to their god-given liberties.

I remember an interview Empire did with Kurt Russell a few years back and he was asked about the fact that so many kids die from the misuse of guns and he said something along the lines of: "well, every time a kid dies it's a tragedy but when you look at the bigger picture that child has been sacrificed for the greater good of freedom." Now I love Kurt but that was a crock of utter shit. So sadly I don't really see anything changing much. Certainly not in an election year.

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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 8:33:00 AM

Brundlesflies

Posts: 591
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: ..telepod one to telepod two

Good post on the Shiznit

CLICKY

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the way most of the media has (predictably) reacted to this tragedy

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Post #: 165

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:17:36 AM

donethinking

Posts: 430
Joined: 24/4/2012
From: Haggisland

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Just because he lives in a country with the death penalty in most states doesn't mean he agrees with it.

I wasnt suggesting he agreed with it, my point was about human nature being unchanged since 'the dark ages', the invention of trials and jurys doesnt change that.

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Post #: 166

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:20:13 AM

Chief

Posts: 7018
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: The Kingdom, Scotland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brundlesflies

Good post on the Shiznit

CLICKY

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the way most of the media has (predictably) reacted to this tragedy

Very good article.

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Post #: 167

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:26:40 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Just because he lives in a country with the death penalty in most states doesn't mean he agrees with it.

I wasnt suggesting he agreed with it, my point was about human nature being unchanged since 'the dark ages', the invention of trials and jurys doesnt change that.

You did seem to be questioning his dismissal of the death penalty simply due to the fact that he lived in a country that had one, which was odd. But it's a moot point considering that he doesn't actually live in America anyway.

Are you suggesting we should do away with juries and trials? Are they anathema to you? Besides I doubt very much this'll go to trial.

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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:26:41 AM

shool

Posts: 9612
Joined: 24/3/2006
From: In The Pipe, Five by Five.

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

saw him today looking dazed and confused, it did strike me that he might be putting it on a bit,

He just looked knackered to me as though he was struggling to stay awake.

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Post #: 169

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:31:29 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

Seeing some of the papers this morning has puzzled me. Some of them are describing his behaviour as "bizarre", noting that he didn't acknowledge anyone present in the court. Comparitively speaking, how the fuck is that bizarre? And what do people expect from him? Tap-dancing? All such needless bollocks.

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RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:31:33 AM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18905
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

An interesting "eye-witness" interview, here.

There was confusion as in a dark theatre. How they jump from that to some government conspriacy....

Making this guy into some sort of cog within a bigger government plot will give the killer what they want. Attention.

This video no different than the Brooker video and the advice given to news networks on how to cover these events. Don't sensationalise. And the video maker is clearly desperate for attention themselves.

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Post #: 171

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:35:22 AM

donethinking

Posts: 430
Joined: 24/4/2012
From: Haggisland

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

Oh woops, sorry I live in a UK town which is abbreviated to LA I think when I joined, this being a film forum I thought it would be *highly* amusing to put that. Really should change it sorry!

But yeah, I thought this chap was an individual, no? He's the only one in the dock?

You're the one suggesting we should 'humanely shoot him as quick as possible.'

I just find that rationale a bit, well, ignorant of what the justice process stands for in society.

I get what your saying but executing a maniac is not the same as walking into a public place and randomly slaughtering innocent men women and children, surely?

for the sake of argument lets just assume the accused has been found guilty btw

< Message edited by donethinking -- 24/7/2012 9:38:02 AM >

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Post #: 172

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:40:12 AM

steffols

Posts: 7622
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

An interesting "eye-witness" interview, here.

There was confusion as in a dark theatre. How they jump from that to some government conspriacy....

Making this guy into some sort of cog within a bigger government plot will give the killer what they want. Attention.

This video no different than the Brooker video and the advice given to news networks on how to cover these events. Don't sensationalise. And the video maker is clearly desperate for attention themselves.

Yeah. If that person was a witness to the crime, the police will have his statement and will investigate it. It's a bit disrespectful of someone to be turning conspiracies from this so early on in the investigation, don't you think?

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Post #: 173

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:42:44 AM

donethinking

Posts: 430
Joined: 24/4/2012
From: Haggisland

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Are you suggesting we should do away with juries and trials? Are they anathema to you? Besides I doubt very much this'll go to trial.

Not at all, obviously its important to find out if someone is guilty before we lynch them

But actually in the case of Brevik for example, everyone already knows he did it but i suppose their trial is all about whether hes insane and deciding what should be done with him.

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Post #: 174

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:44:42 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3589
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

Oh woops, sorry I live in a UK town which is abbreviated to LA I think when I joined, this being a film forum I thought it would be *highly* amusing to put that. Really should change it sorry!

But yeah, I thought this chap was an individual, no? He's the only one in the dock?

You're the one suggesting we should 'humanely shoot him as quick as possible.'

I just find that rationale a bit, well, ignorant of what the justice process stands for in society.

I get what your saying but executing a maniac is not the same as walking into a public place and randomly slaughtering innocent men women and children, surely?

Won't bring the victims back to life though. Nor will it stop it from happening again. Death penalty in US is a practical and ideological failure.

quote:

for the sake of argument lets just assume the accused has been found guilty btw

Well, he hasn't even been formally charged yet but it's unlikely this will go to trial.

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Post #: 175

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:44:45 AM

porntrooper

Posts: 2497
Joined: 6/9/2006
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: donethinking

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Just because he lives in a country with the death penalty in most states doesn't mean he agrees with it.

I wasnt suggesting he agreed with it, my point was about human nature being unchanged since 'the dark ages', the invention of trials and jurys doesnt change that.

Maybe this was covered off somewhere else and I've missed it, but what exactly are you getting at with the whole 'human nature hasn't changed since the dark ages" comment? Can you clarify?

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Post #: 176

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:45:40 AM

Chief Wiggum

Posts: 1921
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of these periodic massacres occur in States with the death penalty?

According to this study

quote:

The impact of the death penalty on public shootings is slightly larger in magnitude, but it is not
as consistently significant as evidence on the deterrent effect of the death penalty on �normal�
murders. Using state and county level data, we found that a one percentage point increase in the
execution rate is associated with a four to seven percent decline in the overall murder rate and the
effect is statistically significant at better than .01 percent level.31 For multiple victim shootings, a one
percentage point increase in the execution rate is associated with about a 10 percent reduction in the
number of murders from multiple victim shootings, but it is never statistically significant for either
the number of murders or shootings.

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Post #: 177

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:45:46 AM

Invader_Ace

Posts: 1524
Joined: 31/7/2008

donethinking.... The Anti-Squidward?

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Post #: 178

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:56:54 AM

elab49

Posts: 51635
Joined: 1/10/2005

Looking through the abstract and some of those tables I have a suspicion there is a core of assumed causality in there, along with an implicit assumption that if a state has a right to carry law everyone would be packing. And doesn't, that I've seen yet, tease out school shootings where the issue would be partly redundant.

Edit Ignore- he was selling a book and there seem to be significant academic queries over his methodology as well as the obvious ones with causality.

http://www.bmsg.org/pdfs/myths.pdf

There's a lot of interesting stuff out there, including debunkings.

< Message edited by elab49 -- 24/7/2012 10:03:35 AM >

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Post #: 179

RE: Shooting in Denver at Dark Knight Rises - 24/7/2012 9:57:14 AM

donethinking

Posts: 430
Joined: 24/4/2012
From: Haggisland

Just watched the excellent charli brooker video on media coverage of these things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

Its a shame news reporting has become about entertainment instead of impartial responsible reporting, that stupid dramatic music they use whilst reading out the headlines doesnt help either.

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Post #: 180