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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 9:47:14 AM   
parsonage84


Posts: 3199
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: bristol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


What happened to Lucius? I may have missed it but I didn't see any shots of him in the closing montages. Did he drown or get out?




There was a scene at the end, where hes talking to some engineers or something am guessing, and they discuss how to make the batwing have auto pilot, and they discover bruce has already fixed the wing to allow him to use it on autopilot

Plus like someone else said he was at the funeral

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(in reply to Spaldron)
Post #: 61
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:02:57 AM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
Fox appears in at least two scenes following his escape up the ladder.
1) The funeral.
2) When the technicians examining a Bat (it seems there's more than one and Bane didn't get the spares) tells Lucius that Bruce Wayne had installed an autopilot system.

Vadersville, I will respond to your post.

< Message edited by thedrin -- 21/7/2012 10:03:18 AM >

(in reply to Spaldron)
Post #: 62
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:12:42 AM   
Judge


Posts: 248
Joined: 13/7/2008
From: Nottingham
As I'm firmly in the "The Dark Knight is incredibly overrated group" when I saw the reviews for this coming in I was hesitant this would be the same. But when I saw it yesterday I really was amazed at how good it was. It's Bale's best performance by far and Nolan really gives the film a lot of heart and it's nice to really care for characters in a superhero film, not a weak link in the cast. Couple of gripes, yes Bane's voice is at times difficult to understand, but a great character nonetheless, and Hans Zimmer's score was far too loud in some scenes. E.G. on Batman's return when Blake and Foley are talking about arresting Batman, I could barely hear a line of dialogue. Minor gripes in what really has stunned me at what a good film it is. Best Batman film by far.

O, and anyone who starts a favourite film thread without seeing the film really does just want to have a big thread to their name.

(in reply to thedrin)
Post #: 63
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:20:58 AM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
It had some ace bits (I enjoyed Bane up until he became a Marxist revolutionary, I loved him as this shadowy overlord that just appeared at various scenes), but on the whole most reviews of this film are way off. I was sorely disappointed after The Dark Knight. It had so many problems. As with Avengers, the breakneck pacing left characters sorely underdeveloped. And it was overly complex. The whole Bane origin thing was such a mess. There were parts of the plot that just felt shoehorned in and didn't need to be there. It should have been a more simple film. JGL was the best thing in it, mind!


A particular bugbear that springs to mind though... did anybody else feel annoyed at how awful Bane's voice in the re-addressed Prologue was?? It sounded like they'd had an older hard-of-hearing actor to come in and do ADR. He sounded ace when I first saw it earlier this year. Absolutely gutted they changed that!


(in reply to Judge)
Post #: 64
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:27:58 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3041
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Actually, it was five months. But then would really believe that the US Government or indeed the international community wouldn't have tried something in a year?


Not any more than they didn't do anything within three months to be honest. The three month thing is so random and there because they needed to give Bruce time, rather than for actual plot purposes.


Well we did see them start to oragnise a special forces attack, which promptly got shot down. I understand what you're saying and kinda agree but think I would have had more of a problem had it been a year with America effectively having an entire city out of their control.

_____________________________

Confusion is a way of life, not a state of mind

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Post #: 65
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:31:59 AM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

quote:

realising that Gotham will always need Batman and he's in it for the long run.


This bit. I didn't get that at all from 2.


Seriously? It's the whole point of Bruce's arc in the film. Directly lifted from the comics where Bruce at first thought it would just be a temporary thing him being Batman, he'd come back to Gotham, stamp out crime and then that would be it. But like Gordon says at the end of Batman Begins, escalation. Heck in The Dark Knight, Bruce even out right says that the day is coming when he won't be Batman anymore, he asks Rachel to wait for him, tells her and Alfred that Dent is the one who is going to carry on his legacy, saving the city without evening wearing a mask. then it all goes up shit creek without a paddle. Rachel dies, Dent, "Gotham's White Knight" is corrupted and Batman takes the blame... "Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him...because he can take it...because he's not a hero...he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...the Dark Knight."


The first bolded part is solved by the second bolded part. I'm not sure what insight Gordon is meant to have into Wayne's unspoken and supposed realisation that he's in it for the long run.

I've never read the comics. Is it possible your transferring aspects of the source material over to the film that didn't make the transition? If I completely misinterpreted the film I'd like to know, but I really don't see it.


Yes, but you haven't even addressed the rest of my point. Bruce's arc is from being of the point of view that he can be Batman for a finite amount of time to then realising that this is going to take a lot longer than he thought. In fact, I'm pretty sure Nolan has said that himself at some point. Its the theme of escalation, which was set up in the final scene of Batman Begins and vocalised by the Joker more than once. How the inhabitants of the city are going to start losing the minds, how he's just the first of many, ahead of the curve, they're need to share a padded cell because at this rate Arkham will have to double up. Batman never thought he would be up against people like The Joker, he only really planned for mob bosses like Falcone and Maroni, TDK is all about that. Yes, it's from the comics but why do you think that it doesn't make the transition?

For me, this is the only big problem with the final chapter is the 8 year jump. It's kind of like how in Superman 2, Supes tells the President that he's sorry he let them down and he isn't going anywhere again, then if Superman Returns is supposed to follow on from that, he buggars off for a few years straight away. As someone else said, it makes the Batman legacy more of an unsual blip in Gotham's history if he was only Batman for a year and a bit. But then as I pointed out there's references to him going on for longer as well, so it's all a bit confusing. Personally I'd have preferred if it hadn't had such a massive gap between the two, say a two or three years. Bruce Wayne was a recluse, but because he had pretty much given up on his Wayne identity and got lost in Batman after the events of TDK, spend all his time in the cave, barely eating, sleeping or talking to Alfred and then we go into the storyline with Bane.

One question which I know is problemly silly. What was up with Bruce's leg? Someone reckoned it was because of Harvey shooting him at the end of TDK, but he got shot in the stomach...


Paragraph 1: I don't disagree with the majority of what you describe as Batman's story in the previous post. This is his story as I see it in your words:

quote:

Edited form of post #49
Bruce at first thought it would just be a temporary thing him being Batman, he'd come back to Gotham, stamp out crime and then that would be it. ... in The Dark Knight, Bruce even out right says that the day is coming when he won't be Batman anymore, he asks Rachel to wait for him, tells her and Alfred that Dent is the one who is going to carry on his legacy, saving the city without evening wearing a mask. then it all goes up shit creek without a paddle. Rachel dies, Dent, "Gotham's White Knight" is corrupted and Batman takes the blame


I agree with you on all of this. But at some point in the film - I honestly have no idea when or where - you describe Wayne as realising that he must continue as Batman indefinitely. I assume you think it comes after and as a result of Dent becoming corrupted, "it all goes up shit creek without a paddle". But from my viewing Batman taking the blame resolves that and makes it possible for Batman to retire.

In fact, it would almost make Batman taking the blame for Dent's crimes meaningless if he couldn't retire after doing so. Dent's work would allow Batman to retire. The film establishes this and, imo, doesn't retract this. Batman taking the fall for Dent allows Dent's work to be completed. I wasn't entirely certain at the end of The Dark Knight if this would happen, but the opening act of The Dark Knight Rises makes it clear that Dent's work was completed in light of his heroism.

quote:

From post #55
Yes, it's from the comics but why do you think that it doesn't make the transition?


I've never read the comics. This discussion with someone who has is the first I've ever heard of the need for Batman to continue indefinitely. I don't doubt that it is in the comics. I'll gladly take your word for it. I do not see it anywhere in the film. Please tell me where it happens in the film. If you've already done so, could you restate it, since I didn't see it anywhere in your previous posts (and I don't believe Gordon has much insight into Batman's psyche).

Paragraph 2: Once you've established that you believe that Bruce Wayne should have continued as Batman after the events of Batman 2, you don't need to prove to me that it negatively affects your enjoyment of Batman 3. I certainly wouldn't of enjoyed it as much as I did if I believed Batman had to continue as Batman.

< Message edited by thedrin -- 21/7/2012 10:41:17 AM >

(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 66
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:39:24 AM   
MartinBlank76


Posts: 1306
Joined: 7/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


I should say that I saw the previous two Nolan Batman films back to back in IMAX on the same night as Rises.



Can I ask do you think that this may have affected your rating for Rises? I am not saying it would but speaking for myself, even though I always thought I would love doing the trilogy back to back in the cinema thing, I would be a bit concerned by the time I got to Rises I might be a bit tired and burnt out by then and that the one film I hadnt actually seen yet may suffer a little by leaving it to the end of massive viewing marathon.

_____________________________

I'm just a fella. I think beer should be cold and boots should be dusty. I think 911 was bad. And freedom? Well, I think thats just a little bit better.

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Post #: 67
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:43:28 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinBlank76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


I should say that I saw the previous two Nolan Batman films back to back in IMAX on the same night as Rises.



Can I ask do you think that this may have affected your rating for Rises? I am not saying it would but speaking for myself, even though I always thought I would love doing the trilogy back to back in the cinema thing, I would be a bit concerned by the time I got to Rises I might be a bit tired and burnt out by then and that the one film I hadnt actually seen yet may suffer a little by leaving it to the end of massive viewing marathon.


I had thought this myself before I went in - but I was pretty energised by the whole experience. But I do think part of my disappointment was that when slotted in with the other two it didn't soar the way the very best third movies do.

I know this will get me shot but it is very much like the Godfather Pt.3 in that the major story is over and so they try and find new ground to cover and while there is plenty of good moments in there to remind you why you are a fan of the series, it never gels together.

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It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 68
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:51:40 AM   
MartinBlank76


Posts: 1306
Joined: 7/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Why did they need Catwoman to get his fingerprints? Couldn't they have just got Talia to so that?


But Talia was being rejected access to Bruce at that time wasnt she? He was cut off to the world (other than alfred).

_____________________________

I'm just a fella. I think beer should be cold and boots should be dusty. I think 911 was bad. And freedom? Well, I think thats just a little bit better.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 69
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:53:32 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinBlank76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Why did they need Catwoman to get his fingerprints? Couldn't they have just got Talia to so that?


But Talia was being rejected access to Bruce at that time wasnt she? He was cut off to the world (other than alfred).


I thought that they had met at some point - the way they talk about reactor and so on.

Also Kyle should have just stolen his walking stick.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 70
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:55:31 AM   
MartinBlank76


Posts: 1306
Joined: 7/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinBlank76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


I should say that I saw the previous two Nolan Batman films back to back in IMAX on the same night as Rises.



Can I ask do you think that this may have affected your rating for Rises? I am not saying it would but speaking for myself, even though I always thought I would love doing the trilogy back to back in the cinema thing, I would be a bit concerned by the time I got to Rises I might be a bit tired and burnt out by then and that the one film I hadnt actually seen yet may suffer a little by leaving it to the end of massive viewing marathon.


I had thought this myself before I went in - but I was pretty energised by the whole experience. But I do think part of my disappointment was that when slotted in with the other two it didn't soar the way the very best third movies do.

I know this will get me shot but it is very much like the Godfather Pt.3 in that the major story is over and so they try and find new ground to cover and while there is plenty of good moments in there to remind you why you are a fan of the series, it never gels together.


Thats fair enough, its just something that may affect me. I felt like I had been through a rollercoaster ride of emotions by the end of rises and I just feel if I had done the first two before that and in a cinema, my back would have been aching, my backside sore and I would be quite tired. Kinda end up feeling like Bruce at the start of this!

_____________________________

I'm just a fella. I think beer should be cold and boots should be dusty. I think 911 was bad. And freedom? Well, I think thats just a little bit better.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 71
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:00:42 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
That was actually the joke I was cracking ahead of time - but no, I felt pretty awake and they gave us a 30 min break so didn't suffer to much from being numb.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 72
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:01:05 AM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Actually, it was five months. But then would really believe that the US Government or indeed the international community wouldn't have tried something in a year?


Not any more than they didn't do anything within three months to be honest. The three month thing is so random and there because they needed to give Bruce time, rather than for actual plot purposes.


Well we did see them start to oragnise a special forces attack, which promptly got shot down. I understand what you're saying and kinda agree but think I would have had more of a problem had it been a year with America effectively having an entire city out of their control.


I think the prolonged nature of the siege was for the League Of Shadows to show to the outside world how far The Greatest City In The World (as Gotham is so often referred to) falls. It's about making a point, and what better way than to draw out the situation for a great length of time?

(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 73
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:10:18 AM   
MartinBlank76


Posts: 1306
Joined: 7/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MartinBlank76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Why did they need Catwoman to get his fingerprints? Couldn't they have just got Talia to so that?


But Talia was being rejected access to Bruce at that time wasnt she? He was cut off to the world (other than alfred).


I thought that they had met at some point - the way they talk about reactor and so on.

Also Kyle should have just stolen his walking stick.


Maybe she hadnt thought up this particular plan at the time, of bankrupting bruce. Or maybe there was no fingerprint recognizing technology at the stock exchange when they first met? And it may have been something new that only now she realised she could take advantage of.

I often feel if you really enjoy a film, like really really enjoy it, you are willing to overlook its flaws. Dark Knight Rises was that film for me. While in comparison, the dark knight, even though I enjoyed it, I didnt love it so much that the flaws didnt bother me. In fact you could almost argue that some of the flaws Rises had reminded me of ones in DK.

The moments that I could nitpick on but was so blown away by the film I dont care to:

The age differences between talia and bane. And bruce. Bane I think mocks bruce for being an old man but if he raised talia as a child what age is he? And I suppose the mask covers the fact that tom hardy is a lot younger than a guy who would have been in the league of shadows before bruce.

The 8 years thing. Did it have to be 8 years? Would 4 not have sufficed? I kept trying to work out bruces age. And I cant imagine someone like bruce wayne with all he has went through going to ground for so long.

I take it the whole letting the timer run down on the bomb was that they werent just satisfied with destroying gotham they wanted to bring its people and maybe to a larger extent the watching world, to its knees first. Break their spirit then destroy them. Much like Bane attempts with Bruce. Leading on with this why keep the cops alive? You'd think they would just let them starve. Or are they thinking they had to show some concessions to keep the outside world at bay, that maybe there was a chance of reasoning with them.

I thought it was bit silly over committing 3000 cops to search the sewers and effectively leaving the city unguarded. Yes they couldnt have known it was a trap but they really did throw in everything but the kitchen sink.

The batwing was great but its weapons seemed a bit naff especially in its attack on city hall. It shot up one tank then disappeared. I thought it could give more cover to the cops. In fact stick a couple of really heavy cannons on it, batman could have cleaned up this whole mess himself if he had been willing to use guns I suppose.

Like I said these didnt bother me enough to affect my enjoyment of the film and maybe if I watch it again they may bother me more or maybe less. We shall see.

_____________________________

I'm just a fella. I think beer should be cold and boots should be dusty. I think 911 was bad. And freedom? Well, I think thats just a little bit better.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 74
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:10:19 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
I will be seeing it again. I want to love it as much as others, I really do. Will see what a rewatch brings.

For all my issues with the film I still liked it - and it earns a viewing on IMAX if at all possible.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to adambatman82)
Post #: 75
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 12:29:03 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3041
Joined: 30/9/2005
thedrin, your last post came across as really condesending and I can't understand why you're focusing in on me in particular when a few on here have said that the 8 year gap was a bit of negative for them and also have trouble buying into Bruce hanging up the cloak after TDK.

You ask for a specific point in which Bruce realises he has to carry on as Batman. there isn't a specific point. There are moments, beats that illustrate this change, the film is lttered with them. It's a gradual change. It's commonly referred to as a "character arc".

I really don't get the whole "Batman took the blame for Dent's murders. Job done." argument. Not really. This Dent Act that's referenced throughout DKR but never explained might have given the GCPD extra power to put away a lot of Gotham's criminals but it most certainly wouldn't have been an overnight thing. Are we to really accept Bruce just went "Fuck it, let them struggle, I'm retiring now because they think I killed some people."? The Joker tells him that he is the first of a new breed of crinimal (a sentiment echoed throughout the film) and says that they're destined to do this forever. Gordon says that they'll hunt him, because he can take it. Are we supposed to believe he was talking specifically to that little bit where Bats runs away and then hets on his bike? No, it was implied that from now on, Batman is on his own.

I honestly think that the decision to make it 8 years later was a descision made in the wake of Ledger's death. Nolan said before that his Batman films were about Batman's early years and yet for the last one we jump to 8 years later for his final adventure. I have no problem with Nolan giving Batman an ending, I love that. It's something that the comcis will never be able to do. So I applaud him for that. What I take issue with his trying to buy in that Bruce Wayne after being dubbed the Watchful Protector seconds before would suddenly leave Gotham's fight on crime to its own devices. What's interesting is that there at moments in the DKR that do suggest Batman carried on for a bit, but there are so many more that state he disappeared the night of Dent's murder.

Anyway, this is really a Favourite Films thread not a Film Review thread and I loved the film, let's move the discussion back to the positive.

_____________________________

Confusion is a way of life, not a state of mind

(in reply to thedrin)
Post #: 76
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 2:08:08 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: parsonage84


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


What happened to Lucius? I may have missed it but I didn't see any shots of him in the closing montages. Did he drown or get out?




There was a scene at the end, where hes talking to some engineers or something am guessing, and they discuss how to make the batwing have auto pilot, and they discover bruce has already fixed the wing to allow him to use it on autopilot

Plus like someone else said he was at the funeral



Ah right, I remember it now, when I wrote my review I was half asleep.

_____________________________

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

(in reply to parsonage84)
Post #: 77
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 2:10:55 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron



And Girv

quote:

To get people’s attention Bane destroys the football stadium in the scene we have all seen in the trailers. That is about as big as the film gets by the way

No different to the truck flip from TDK which was also in the trailers.




Not sure I see your point - the scene this one corresponds to in TDK is the when the hospital blows up - which was much more impressive really - think because it used a mix of CGI and other techniques. And I can't recall see the full scene of the hospital blowing up in the trailers - esp the shot of the Joker walking away from it.


Have to disagree. The money shot in TDK was the truck flip (which was in the trailers) and frankly the film doesn't get better after that scene. The money shot in TDKR was the stadium attack (which was also in the trailer) and you could argue is the best moment in the film. So to me there's no difference and it doesn't really bother me that we have already seen it before, its all about seeing it in the context of the film which makes it work more.

_____________________________

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 78
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 2:15:46 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville



Anyway, this is really a Favourite Films thread not a Film Review thread and I loved the film, let's move the discussion back to the positive.


While it is the Favoruite Film subforum don't let that be a sign that we can't discuss what does and doesn't work in films. This is really more a place for proper discussion outside of the Film Review thread. Don't feel you need to leave.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 79
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 2:16:39 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron



And Girv

quote:

To get people’s attention Bane destroys the football stadium in the scene we have all seen in the trailers. That is about as big as the film gets by the way

No different to the truck flip from TDK which was also in the trailers.




Not sure I see your point - the scene this one corresponds to in TDK is the when the hospital blows up - which was much more impressive really - think because it used a mix of CGI and other techniques. And I can't recall see the full scene of the hospital blowing up in the trailers - esp the shot of the Joker walking away from it.


Have to disagree. The money shot in TDK was the truck flip (which was in the trailers) and frankly the film doesn't get better after that scene. The money shot in TDKR was the stadium attack (which was also in the trailer) and you could argue is the best moment in the film. So to me there's no difference and it doesn't really bother me that we have already seen it before, its all about seeing it in the context of the film which makes it work more.


My point is that even after the truck scene there is one more big scene which catches your breath - unless you think that the hosptial blowing up wasn't impressive?

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Spaldron)
Post #: 80
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 2:27:23 PM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
I'm not trying to be deliberately condescending but I may come across like that as a byproduct of my posting style which is about making sure that I don't lose sight of the original point of contention, that I don't go off on wild tangents, and that I don't get bogged down in semantics - things that I used to do online all of the time.

If there's some particular aspect of that post that you want to highlight as being especially bad, go ahead. I'll try to use that to improve my posting style.

I don't have any vendetta against you. You're responding to me. I respond back. The few other responses were similar enough to yours that I thought it'd be redundant to respond to everyone. I didn't think any of my responses were unpleasant but it's possible I'm wrong on that.

I tend to view the review thread as the spoiler free review thread and the favourite films thread as the spoiler full reviews and discussion. I don't think this is out of place here.

I'll try to just do a short summary of my position since I think we reached an impasse.
I don't think that Batman has much of an arc in TDK.
I don't think he decides that he must continue as Batman indefinitely.
I don't take Gordon or the Joker's statements as evidence that Batman has realised this. You'd be on firmer ground with Rachel ("I now believe that the time won't come when you no longer need Batman"). The other two just see a mask they can project their hopes/beliefs/intentions/world view/whatever onto. She actually knows him and would be much less likely to do so, but I always took that line as an angry jab after Dent claimed to be Batman.
While I don't think that the fight to save Gotham has reached completion at the end of TDK, I do think that a point has been reached where Batman can no longer constructively aid this fight.

I'd really like to know if I'm in the minority on this. Have I missed something massive in TDK?

< Message edited by thedrin -- 21/7/2012 2:34:36 PM >

(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 81
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 3:27:21 PM   
Darth Marenghi

 

Posts: 3194
Joined: 10/10/2010
From: Manchester

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

A particular bugbear that springs to mind though... did anybody else feel annoyed at how awful Bane's voice in the re-addressed Prologue was?? It sounded like they'd had an older hard-of-hearing actor to come in and do ADR. He sounded ace when I first saw it earlier this year. Absolutely gutted they changed that!




I was genuinely quite disappointed with that - the sad part is that they'll never admit to having done it, so you won't get a easter egg on the Blu-Ray where you get the original voice back.

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Post #: 82
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 4:29:08 PM   
Ghidorah

 

Posts: 2870
Joined: 6/10/2005
Someone uploaded the ending

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

In my opinion that ending is a good way to end the trilogy. Nolan didn't need to hint throughout the film there isn't going to be another one. It just spoils the flow of the film and all these homages to the previous film just made Rises worst.

I like to bullet point some of the changes which would made the film better in my opinion.

* There shouldn't be a eight year gap between this and TDK. There should of been a four year gap and Bruce Wayne retired from Batman two years after TDK.


* Bruce Wayne and Miranda Tate were already close.

I thought the film would made better sense if Bruce Wayne were settling down with Miranda Tate. However this relationship becomes strained when Bruce Wayne felt the need to become Batman once again. Hence causing Alfred to walk out on him. It also make Bruce rescue attempt on Miranda more personal. One because he cares for her and two he didn't want to fail her like he did with Rachel. It also make Miranda character more conflicted.


* Why change Greyson to Blake?

Just because Nolan didn't want Greyson to wear a custom in this doesn't mean he had to go extra lengths to hide his idenity from the public. Why couldn't Bruce Wayne adapt Greyson at the end after Batman Begins? So he didn't appear in TDK, doesn't mean he wasn't around. More importantly Bruce could of inspired Greyson to be a cop.

(in reply to Darth Marenghi)
Post #: 83
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 5:15:54 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darth Marenghi


quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000

A particular bugbear that springs to mind though... did anybody else feel annoyed at how awful Bane's voice in the re-addressed Prologue was?? It sounded like they'd had an older hard-of-hearing actor to come in and do ADR. He sounded ace when I first saw it earlier this year. Absolutely gutted they changed that!




I was genuinely quite disappointed with that - the sad part is that they'll never admit to having done it, so you won't get a easter egg on the Blu-Ray where you get the original voice back.


I can't see it either. But his dialogue was so clunky in the final film's opening. The prologue was perfect in my opinion.

My guess is Warners pressured Nolan to changing it, which was a shame.

But on the whole I don't think Bane's voice worked really. I think people will want to say it did, but deep down they'll know to themselves it really didn't. It was almost camp in parts, really quite bizarre.

It reminded me of Rowen Atkinson bizarrely... if you watch this clip, I think you'll know exactly what I mean http://youtu.be/ywjX6AF6oVc?t=3m23s

< Message edited by jon5000 -- 21/7/2012 5:16:28 PM >

(in reply to Darth Marenghi)
Post #: 84
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 7:37:11 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3041
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah

Someone uploaded the ending

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

In my opinion that ending is a good way to end the trilogy. Nolan didn't need to hint throughout the film there isn't going to be another one. It just spoils the flow of the film and all these homages to the previous film just made Rises worst.

I like to bullet point some of the changes which would made the film better in my opinion.

* There shouldn't be a eight year gap between this and TDK. There should of been a four year gap and Bruce Wayne retired from Batman two years after TDK.


* Bruce Wayne and Miranda Tate were already close.

I thought the film would made better sense if Bruce Wayne were settling down with Miranda Tate. However this relationship becomes strained when Bruce Wayne felt the need to become Batman once again. Hence causing Alfred to walk out on him. It also make Bruce rescue attempt on Miranda more personal. One because he cares for her and two he didn't want to fail her like he did with Rachel. It also make Miranda character more conflicted.


* Why change Greyson to Blake?

Just because Nolan didn't want Greyson to wear a custom in this doesn't mean he had to go extra lengths to hide his idenity from the public. Why couldn't Bruce Wayne adapt Greyson at the end after Batman Begins? So he didn't appear in TDK, doesn't mean he wasn't around. More importantly Bruce could of inspired Greyson to be a cop.


Agree that the 8 year gap was a bit much and having Batman disapear a few years after TDk would have been better.

Not sure about having Miranda Tate and Bruce already close, I liked how their relationship developed. People have moaned that it never felt real enough but I think that's the point. It's not real. She is someone who he cares about, but ultimately Miranda is just Bruce needing to feel close to someone. The real relationship is between Selina and Bruce which again I thought was handled brillantly.

When the woman said to Blake you should use your legal name I was expecting her to say Richard Grayson. Robin was just a bit cringe-worthy. I actually thought having Bruce fund the orphanage that brought up Blake was a neat way to get round the whole Grayson being Bruce's ward which works well in the comics but might not translate in Nolan's canon. I've always though JGL would be perfect for Nightwing and the way he played Blake reminded me of the character. I have a sneaky feeling that originally his legal name was indeed originally Grayson but the studio went with Robin because they didn't think the average movie-goer would get the connection.

I have to say I do think this is one of the greatest trilogies, but boy do the titles suck! Batman Begins, crap title, epic film, but crap title. The Dark Knight, great title actually but when the third one is called The Dark Knight Rises it kinda makes it a bit odd. Which makes me think the titles are down to the studios. With the first one Nolan was forced to include Batman by the studio because he was at this stage unproven. When the second one came along they were confident enough for him to have the first Batman film without the actual name Batman in it. Then that film made a billion dollars and The Dark Knight becomes the brand so he has to have The Dark Knight in the title of the third. Maybe in a few years now Nolan will do A GL and rename BB to fit in with 2 and 3...

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Post #: 85
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 9:25:49 PM   
Bluedevils

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/1/2006
It is the best of the three in my opinion. I am seeing it again in the week and I know it will hold me all the way through again, whereas on repeat viewing 'Begins' loses my interest at the Arkham breakout scene and 'TDK' as soon as Dent becomes Two Face.

The major positives, not an exhaustive list by any means...

1. No Maggie Gyllenhaal obviously!
2. Bales best acting performance.
3. The Batman v Bane action scenes are brutal.
4. Anne Hathaway really is brilliant and probably steals the show for me.

Nit picking negatives....

1. Banes voice. They should have left it as it was in the original prologue. Instead it just ended up being too loud which left it feeling detached from Hardy's performance.
2. Gotham is just New York City in the aerial shots. Where is the imposing Gothic skyline of 'Begins'??
3. A continuity error involving Miranda Tates whereabouts towards the end really bugged me.
4. The Joker should have been referenced in some way by someone. I understand Nolans wish to respect Heath Ledger's performance but that character is just too big to just throw away. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, it would have been spectacular to have the Joker in Scarecrows role in this one.
5. Not enough Lucius Fox!
6. The end should just have been Alfred looking up and smiling. We all would have known.

I can't help but feel that because Nolan hasn't killed off ANY of the major characters coupled with the 'Robin' hint and Blake entering the Batcave, that he is leaving the door open if he wants it... I just hope WB wait for him to walk through it and not pass it on to someone else.

(in reply to Vadersville)
Post #: 86
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 10:38:14 PM   
UTB


Posts: 9551
Joined: 30/9/2005
Saw it this afternoon.. still processing it, but my summary:

Good points:

Easily Bale's finest performance of the three movies, any doubts as to his Bruce/Batman abilities should be quashed by him in this
Bane's threat - what I felt lacked in BB and TDK was a sense of true threat, which Bane provided
Catwoman/Hathaway - I really expected this to be the weakest part of the film but was really surprised how naturally Selina fitted in and how well Hathaway did with the character - her reluctance to be part of the saviour of Gotham juxtaposed nicely with Batman's desire for it. Also loved how the cat ears fitted in - like it was acknowledged that the ears looked crap but they still had to be there
Alfred/Michael Caine - honestly, I've found Alfred to be underwritten and cliched in the previous two films but thought his part and Caine were brilliant this time around, finally providing Alfred with something more than just summarising Batman's issues.
Hans Zimmer - the score was incredible, thunderous and relentless, mysterious and memorable
JGL and Oldman - excellent as always
The Bat/Batpod

Not so good points

Bane's voice/accent - he sounded terribly middle class considering his background and the ADR (if thats what was used) made him sound like he was almost narrating the movie at some point
Sound mixing - could have just been the theatre but there were points where the score was hammering away whilst Bane was talking and some of it (very little, I should add) was inaudible.
The 'war' in the street was pretty poorly acted by the extras (this even bothered the missus)
Unnecessary inclusion of the Scarecrow again (not really needed in TDK was he?)


Not much to complain about really, it was epic both on story and scale, and deserves a lot of praise.



Also - for those saying that the Scarecrow scene would have been intended for the Joker... 2 things:

1. This was written after Heath's death and seems unlikely that it would have ever been intended that way..
2. Is this scene not a riff on the old Alice in Wonderland trial scene?

(in reply to Bluedevils)
Post #: 87
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:08:59 PM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6417
Joined: 20/6/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB
Bane's voice/accent - he sounded terribly middle class considering his background and the ADR (if thats what was used) made him sound like he was almost narrating the movie at some point


As opposed to Liam Neeson accent as Ras Al Ghul?

To be fair apart from prison we don't know Banes background either (in the film).

I avoided all trailers before I'd seen the film and agreed at first the voice was strange. After a while it grew on me though. One of the best thing's about this film is the representation of Bane. Finally being portrayed as a character who rivals Batman physically but mentally too. I was a bit let down that Talia was the woman behind him ... but from what we see on screen I'd say he is clearly intelligent and I'd like to think he played a large part in scheming everything together too.



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Post #: 88
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:18:18 PM   
Hobbitonlass

 

Posts: 11916
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Westeros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluedevils

3. A continuity error involving Miranda Tates whereabouts towards the end really bugged me.


That one bugged me (assuming you are referring to Batman asking where Miranda is when he was just with her when getting Gordon).

quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB

Good points:

Easily Bale's finest performance of the three movies, any doubts as to his Bruce/Batman abilities should be quashed by him in this
Bane's threat - what I felt lacked in BB and TDK was a sense of true threat, which Bane provided
Catwoman/Hathaway - I really expected this to be the weakest part of the film but was really surprised how naturally Selina fitted in and how well Hathaway did with the character - her reluctance to be part of the saviour of Gotham juxtaposed nicely with Batman's desire for it. Also loved how the cat ears fitted in - like it was acknowledged that the ears looked crap but they still had to be there
Alfred/Michael Caine - honestly, I've found Alfred to be underwritten and cliched in the previous two films but thought his part and Caine were brilliant this time around, finally providing Alfred with something more than just summarising Batman's issues.
Hans Zimmer - the score was incredible, thunderous and relentless, mysterious and memorable
JGL and Oldman - excellent as always
The Bat/Batpod


Agree with all those. It's been a while since I really wanted to go and get the soundtrack after seeing the film (think LOTR was the last) but this one has me wanting it.

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Post #: 89
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 11:24:09 PM   
UTB


Posts: 9551
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB
Bane's voice/accent - he sounded terribly middle class considering his background and the ADR (if thats what was used) made him sound like he was almost narrating the movie at some point


As opposed to Liam Neeson accent as Ras Al Ghul?

To be fair apart from prison we don't know Banes background either (in the film).

I avoided all trailers before I'd seen the film and agreed at first the voice was strange. After a while it grew on me though. One of the best thing's about this film is the representation of Bane. Finally being portrayed as a character who rivals Batman physically but mentally too. I was a bit let down that Talia was the woman behind him ... but from what we see on screen I'd say he is clearly intelligent and I'd like to think he played a large part in scheming everything together too.






Agree that we don't know Bane's background at all, really, but it just didn't sit right for me. Perhaps had it not been so prominent in the volume I would have found it more easily digestible.

As for Neeson... well I let that go a long time ago


< Message edited by UTB -- 21/7/2012 11:25:06 PM >

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Post #: 90
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