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RE: The Dark Knight Rises

 
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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 26/7/2012 4:15:51 PM   
maffew


Posts: 2811
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: chester
The more I read peoples glowing reviews, the more I realise that I actually didn't like it that much. I remember watching Transformers and actually really liking it to my surprise. The sequel came out, I went to see it, and found myself telling people it was good, when actually it was abysmal, just because I wanted to like it. This is much the same, only Begins was excellent and Dark Knight even better... Rises I walked out of going 'yeah it was really good.. yeah' then I came to write out a little review, and could list all the things i didnt like, but struggled with things I did..then i started thinking about the outrageous plot holes, clunky dialogue, needless exposition, lack of really amazing set pieces, a distinct lack of batman, banes voice, the convoluted pacing of the story, the running time, clunky editing, bad sound design (banes voice sounds the same wherever he is, whatever situation!)..I mean, I'm a big fan of Nolan and the previous Batman films he's done - but how can people look past things like that? That's a big list of things, and I don't think I'm nitpicking... The icing on the cake was hearing Kermode refer to it as 'art' ...it isn't. It just isn't. Nor was Inception, it was really good though. I'm going to watch it again in IMAX, but as it stands, on first viewing, I've gone from impressed to incredibly disappointed..

That said, it IS good, even given all those things.. I enjoyed it - TDK had it's shortfalls - too many things happening at once, running time..Batmans voice.. but you could overlook them because it was so enthralling.. this was... i dunno, I'm gonna watch it again..

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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 26/7/2012 5:10:46 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005
Just saw The Dark Knight Rises yet again at the cinema and I was wrong... Selina is wearing the pearls in the last scene. I feel much happier now.

I should also note that I picked up on many more subtle hints that Miranda Tate is Talia Al Ghul. The first time it didn't so much shock me as grant a fanboy wish but my girlfriend didn't even see it coming. This time round though, knowing the twist was comingthe signs were obvious. Miranda keeps popping up in places she really shouldn't be, when she first meets Bruce she's hidden her face behind a mask, and so many of her lines echo what Ra's said in Batman Begins, eg. when she tells Bruce to do "what is necessary". The scene when she and Bruce first kiss also makes a lot more sense when you realise she is manipulating him, playing on his emotions and the memory of Rachel. Brilliant stuff, Nolan!

< Message edited by Vadersville -- 26/7/2012 7:57:19 PM >


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Post #: 272
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 26/7/2012 9:22:05 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair
One thing that's been bugging me is the inconsistency of the look of Gotham throughout the trilogy.

In Begins Nolan got the look perfect, creating a realistic fictional mega-city with a slight Gothic touch which matched the comics using composite shots of various cities blended together augmented by CGI/model buildings. Wayne tower, the monorail, the Narrows all looked original and fitted in with the source material.

TDK pulled back a little by just shooting in Chicago and using the occasional augmented CGI shot to expand the city-scape. For some reason Wayne tower looks completely different, there's no Narrows or monorail to be seen anywhere.

Now in TDKR its just New York, plain and simple, they didn't even try to hide the fact by adding more buildings. Pay attention to the shots of the bridges being blown, you can clearly make out the WTC complex and the Chrysler building.

Now I know Nolan is a nut for capturing as much on camera as possible but by changing the look of Gotham over the three films presents major inconsistencies and by just using New York for the wide shots takes me right out of the film as I know it isn't really Gotham. Just a bit of a problem for me.

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Post #: 273
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 26/7/2012 9:29:40 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005
I have said the same thing further back and totally agree Spaldron. It doesn't matter as much in TDK because Chicago is so rarely scene on film (apart from Transformers 3 which was so wierd seeing landmarks I associated in film) but the aerial shots in DKR are so blatantly just New York it is jarring. I don't understand it, especially when so much was made of the efforts they went to in BB to make their own Gotham.

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Post #: 274
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 8:52:55 AM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville
Just saw The Dark Knight Rises yet again at the cinema and I was wrong... Selina is wearing the pearls in the last scene. I feel much happier now.


Yep, she is - I had secondary confirmation last night from a mate.

That confirms that Bruce is indeed alive and that the Nolans have left us with a (for them) clumsy and contrived ending.

Ah well.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 27/7/2012 9:06:06 AM >


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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 9:55:30 AM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 562
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
I went for a second time yesterday.

Thoughts:

There are no where near as many inconsistencies as this thread had got me thinking there were. The only ones that hold up are:
a) day to night transition during first chase
b) Continuity problem with Miranda Tate when she is in the 'courtroom'.
c) Gordon getting out of the truck unharmed.

Other 'errors' and questions don't hold up - I'm happy to connect the dots myself.

The men guarding the bridge at the end are wearing Gotham city police uniforms.
Alfred went searching for information on Bane when Blake first mentioned it to him.
Blake is left a bag with the coordinates to the batcave in Wayne's will.

The first time I saw it I had a big problem with the changing cityscape from Batman Begins to the Dark Knight to The Dark Knight Rises and I would have preferred if they had stuck with the fictional city from Batman Begins, but homersimpson_esq's analysis of that has made me much happier than I was. I'd still prefer Batman Begin's Gotham to have been the setting for all three films, but it's a nice metaphor.

quote:

homersimpson_esq:
That city has changed. In Batman Begins it is unrecognisable as a real city; in The Dark Knight it resembles Chicago. Here it is more akin to New York. Chicago has history with crime – gangsters and so forth, more so in the popular consciousness than New York. That changing vision of Gotham reflects the changing atmosphere within the city.

Anna Hathaway really impressed me the second time round. The first time I did not pick up on how angry her character is.

< Message edited by thedrin -- 27/7/2012 9:57:52 AM >

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Post #: 276
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 10:08:44 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

I went for a second time yesterday.

Thoughts:

There are no where near as many inconsistencies as this thread had got me thinking there were. The only ones that hold up are:
a) day to night transition during first chase
b) Continuity problem with Miranda Tate when she is in the 'courtroom'.
c) Gordon getting out of the truck unharmed.

Other 'errors' and questions don't hold up - I'm happy to connect the dots myself.

The men guarding the bridge at the end are wearing Gotham city police uniforms.
Alfred went searching for information on Bane when Blake first mentioned it to him.
Blake is left a bag with the coordinates to the batcave in Wayne's will.

The first time I saw it I had a big problem with the changing cityscape from Batman Begins to the Dark Knight to The Dark Knight Rises and I would have preferred if they had stuck with the fictional city from Batman Begins, but homersimpson_esq's analysis of that has made me much happier than I was. I'd still prefer Batman Begin's Gotham to have been the setting for all three films, but it's a nice metaphor.

quote:

homersimpson_esq:
That city has changed. In Batman Begins it is unrecognisable as a real city; in The Dark Knight it resembles Chicago. Here it is more akin to New York. Chicago has history with crime – gangsters and so forth, more so in the popular consciousness than New York. That changing vision of Gotham reflects the changing atmosphere within the city.

Anna Hathaway really impressed me the second time round. The first time I did not pick up on how angry her character is.


Yeah, a lot of the supposed errorsbrought up in this thread really don't exist. But actually the one about Miranda tate that you said does, doesn't either. Baffled when someone brought it up I purposely looked out for it next time but it's simply not there. Bruce sees Miranda when he is brought before Lucius and tells her he'll come back for her. He and Lucius are then taken away with Selina. Lucius and Bruce go off to get him armed up whilst Miranda and Gordon and his men are taken before Crane in the court and sentenced to death by exile. Bane tells the guards to bring Miranda to him and leaves with her. Bruce then rescues Gordon but Miranda isn't there so he asks where she is. Where is the error?

Also Gordon survives the crash? So what? Talia is killed by the front of the truck crumbling in on her not the crash itself. It wasn't that big of a drop so Gordon could have easily survived it with a few bumps, cuts and bruises.

The day to night one is a bit jarring though.

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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 10:15:22 AM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
Maybe I'm totally wrong but I thought when they left the stock exchange although daylight the street lights were on representing an early evening setting. Therefore when it's night a short time after it didn't seem too much of an issue for me.

I could be wrong though.

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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 10:18:23 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob

Maybe I'm totally wrong but I thought when they left the stock exchange although daylight the street lights were on representing an early evening setting. Therefore when it's night a short time after it didn't seem too much of an issue for me.

I could be wrong though.


Yeah the street lights are on and the bikes they leave on have their lights on too. When it cuts back to Foley at the Stock exchange from the bikes in the tunnels the sky has also gotten quite dark. It's just that first shot of them driving along in daylight, albeit with the lights on and then they turn off to into the tunnels and through the sides we can see it's now pitch black.

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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 10:26:26 AM   
TheFuzz_1989


Posts: 399
Joined: 16/9/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Yeah, a lot of the supposed errorsbrought up in this thread really don't exist. But actually the one about Miranda tate that you said does, doesn't either. Baffled when someone brought it up I purposely looked out for it next time but it's simply not there. Bruce sees Miranda when he is brought before Lucius and tells her he'll come back for her. He and Lucius are then taken away with Selina. Lucius and Bruce go off to get him armed up whilst Miranda and Gordon and his men are taken before Crane in the court and sentenced to death by exile. Bane tells the guards to bring Miranda to him and leaves with her. Bruce then rescues Gordon but Miranda isn't there so he asks where she is. Where is the error?


That makes sense. Perhaps it is more of an editing problem with the Miranda Tate situation? I remember on initial viewing it cut from her urging Gordon to include her in the operation, then immediately to Selina beating up the thugs, I almost though it was Tate for a split second.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Also Gordon survives the crash? So what? Talia is killed by the front of the truck crumbling in on her not the crash itself. It wasn't that big of a drop so Gordon could have easily survived it with a few bumps, cuts and bruises.

Ah, I didn't notice the thing had collapsed on her, even after seeing it twice. I just assumed she hit her head really hard on the glass or something... yeah that makes a lot more sense now as well.

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Post #: 280
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 12:52:25 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
There's a really nice feature that Total Film have done recounting the 50 best moments of The Dark Knight Rises.

For those that loved the film it's certainly worth a read.

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Post #: 281
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 12:53:50 PM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 562
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Yeah, a lot of the supposed errorsbrought up in this thread really don't exist. But actually the one about Miranda tate that you said does, doesn't either. Baffled when someone brought it up I purposely looked out for it next time but it's simply not there. Bruce sees Miranda when he is brought before Lucius and tells her he'll come back for her. He and Lucius are then taken away with Selina. Lucius and Bruce go off to get him armed up whilst Miranda and Gordon and his men are taken before Crane in the court and sentenced to death by exile. Bane tells the guards to bring Miranda to him and leaves with her. Bruce then rescues Gordon but Miranda isn't there so he asks where she is. Where is the error?


Fox and Tate are found 23 days before the bomb goes off. We do not see Fox again until the day the bomb goes off.
A day before the bomb goes off, Tate offers to help the cops. We don't know where she or Fox have been for the last 22 days.
Gordon, cops, and Tate are taken to the court. Bane requests Tate.
Wayne is captured and is probably brought to the court or a related location under the control of the bad guys. He meets Fox and Tate. This is the first time we see Fox in 22 days. He, presumably, has been at the mercy of the bad guys for all of this time. But Fox would have arrived with Tate. So from his perspective Tate has arrived with him under guard, left, and arrived again after she was captured with the cops. He may not know that she was brought in with the cops.
Kyle escorts Fox and Wayne away from where they are being held. Miranda stays behind. Fox helps Wayne become Batman.
Batman rescues the cops. He asks where Tate is. he has just seen her - she was brought in with the cops before Wayne was captured.

quote:

Also Gordon survives the crash? So what? Talia is killed by the front of the truck crumbling in on her not the crash itself. It wasn't that big of a drop so Gordon could have easily survived it with a few bumps, cuts and bruises.


Of the one's listed, this is the least jarring. I don't object to his survival at all, but getting thrown around that space is pretty dangerous. I can buy into the idea that adrenaline is keeping him going through any pain.


< Message edited by thedrin -- 27/7/2012 12:54:33 PM >

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Post #: 282
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 1:05:05 PM   
jobloffski

 

Posts: 1894
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: elsewhere
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

I have said the same thing further back and totally agree Spaldron. It doesn't matter as much in TDK because Chicago is so rarely scene on film (apart from Transformers 3 which was so wierd seeing landmarks I associated in film) but the aerial shots in DKR are so blatantly just New York it is jarring. I don't understand it, especially when so much was made of the efforts they went to in BB to make their own Gotham.


New York was nicknamed Gotham long before Batman's Gotham City existed. Why not have Gotham playing the part of Gotham



< Message edited by jobloffski -- 27/7/2012 1:50:02 PM >


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Post #: 283
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 1:43:41 PM   
porntrooper

 

Posts: 2616
Joined: 6/9/2006
From: Sheffield
Saw it a third time last night, and I have to say I enjoyed it most this time round. It was another IMAX showing and it didn’t carry with it the weight of expectation that I had in that first viewing. I’d missed a few lines of Bane dialogue during the first two viewings, but last night I picked up everything, I also picked up things I missed first time round regards the plot – specifically Bruce’s fingerprints, his reclusiveness, the earlier involvement of Miranda. I also managed to catch some more of the themes – fear of death, spirit and soul as well as finally seeing the pay-off to the whole ‘Fire Rises’ dialogue during Bane’s plane heist.

It still has flaws – needs more time with Miranda before the Talia reveal, Bane’s ADR and the plot is still ridiculously convoluted– but it at least makes more sense now, and the timelines of everything seem to work out nicely. I still love the passing of the mantle, I think Bane is more entertaining that Joker, the fight in the sewers is easily my second favourite set piece of the whole trilogy and Hathaway is superb, playing Selina’s subtle changes in persona perfectly. I really do like Bruce’s overall story through the three movies. I know some people think there is too much time spent with Bruce trying to end his time as Bat’s, but I love it. It totally makes sense.

As for the plot, things do seem to fit together more for me after that third viewing. I don’t know why it took that many viewings to really click (the simple fact it did take so much could be considered a flaw) but it may have been that my first viewing my head was in the clouds, buzzing at the excitement. Second viewing taking things in from the IMAX may have distracted me, who knows, but now things certainly make more sense. As things did make more sense to me I noticed a few things too, such as I don’t think Bruce is in hiding for the full 8 years. Batman is, but not Bruce.

During a few conversations Miranda mentions to Wayne that he went into hiding once he shut down his clean energy project, also commenting that he was broken after his plan to save the world with clean energy failed. I think it’s being suggested that after Bruce hangs up the cape as Batman 8 years ago, he puts his effort to save Gotham into the clean energy project, using his funding and Wayne Enterprises to push it forward. Miranda also puts funding into it, although she confirms she wasn’t part of the Wayne Enterprise Board and she never met Wayne, simply put in the cash.

Once Pavel published the details on how he could turn that clean energy device into a neutron bomb, Bruce shut the project down. That’s when he goes into hiding, and it’s suggested that its approx 3 years ago. With Wayne in hiding and the project dead, Miranda needs a way onto the Wayne Enterprise Board so she can shut out Wayne and get access to the project again (so she and Bane can use Pavel to turn the device to the neutron bomb and destroy Gotham). So, using Bane as the mercenary for hire working for Daggett, Bane does Daggett’s dirty work in Africa or wherever it is taking over oil companies. Then, Bane is to be used as the hired muscle for Daggett’s plans in Gotham to take over the Wayne Board. Daggett uses Selina to steal Bruce’s finger prints and Bane to steal the stock data. He uses Bruce’s fingerprints to spunk Wayne’s money on bad options from the stock data, leaving him broke and having to leave the board. At this point Wayne approaches Miranda to take over, giving her and Bane the easy access they need to the clean energy device. Daggett is no longer needed so Bane does away with him (love that scene, as Bane puts his hand gently on Daggett’s shoulder “Do you feel in control?”). As part of payment for helping Daggett, Bane has taken control of his construction crews all over the city, setting up the explosives. It’s suggested during Banes final chat with Daggett that the plan is simply to destroy Gotham with it. There is no plan to cause the revolution, its simply destruction. However, that changes when somehow Miranda learns that Bruce is Batman – they talk about his scars when they’re fireside, and I think the only real explanation is she makes the leap that he is Batman?? – Bane and Bat’s get it on and that’s when the plan evolves into the torture of Bruce/Batman’s soul using Gotham. That only becomes part of the plan once they learn who Wayne really is. During the finale Miranda/Talia talks about forcing Bruce to feel the fire of a million souls etc suggesting that her, Bane and their Band of Mercs are more of a cult than initially suggested. They’re all going to die in the fire of Gotham, it’s only really suggested in two or three lines of dialogue, but it is there and does make sense – in a rather round about way!

The whole revolution in Gotham actually played out better this time too, noticed more of the scenes with certain elements of Gotham partying and buying into Bane’s revolution and the others being cast out, living in hiding under the marshall law. Those few little scenes stood out more this time and did make that whole occupation feel bigger in scope than it had done initially. I noticed more of the power outs across the city during aeriel shots, noticed more of the fires burning around the city at night and although I do wish Nolan had put us more street level as Bane’s bombs hit (it looks really good during those scenes with Blake in the car – needed more of that with innocent Gothamites to really sell the danger) the sweeping shots of the city crumbling looked great. I also loved Bane’s Black Gate speech more than ever, I love how he is really playing up his fake revolution to the cameras, all the while knowing what Bruce is seeing and with both of them knowing Gotham will be destroyed. Hardy is really great in that scene.

There really were a few elements of that that I missed on first viewing, particularly Miranda’s non-involvement on the board and how Bruce’s fingerprints were tied to it all. On third viewing this was getting closer and closer to Batman Begins in terms of how I rank the three films. I just love it. Am going again next week. What a fucking geek I am.


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Post #: 284
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 1:50:32 PM   
jobloffski

 

Posts: 1894
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: elsewhere
As cheesy (or whatever) as the following will sound, I have had a few goes at mimicking Bane's voice and I've pretty much cracked it...hand as claw over the mouth and nose, bellow over enunciated, slightly elongated syllables, with teeth clenched together, not moving the jaw at all, only using vocal chords and lips/cheeks to form words...

Why mention this potentially embarrassing thing? Well, as well as liking to stretch my voice to assist me in readings I do, I got the feeling that Bane talks the way he does because his jaw is destroyed, and it's the only way he can talk, to do effectively what I suggest above. Pretty fucking horrific stuff going on under that bloody towel over his head...



< Message edited by jobloffski -- 27/7/2012 2:06:30 PM >


_____________________________

Yes, dreamers dream and doers do. But if dreamers DON'T dream, doers don't have anything TO do. Everything that is only here because people exist, only exists because someone thought of it., or in other words, dreamed it.

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Post #: 285
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:01:14 PM   
thedrin

 

Posts: 562
Joined: 9/1/2007
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: porntrooper
Once Pavel published the details on how he could turn that clean energy device into a neutron bomb, Bruce shut the project down. That’s when he goes into hiding, and it’s suggested that its approx 3 years ago. With Wayne in hiding and the project dead, Miranda needs a way onto the Wayne Enterprise Board so she can shut out Wayne and get access to the project again (so she and Bane can use Pavel to turn the device to the neutron bomb and destroy Gotham). So, using Bane as the mercenary for hire working for Daggett, Bane does Daggett’s dirty work in Africa or wherever it is taking over oil companies. Then, Bane is to be used as the hired muscle for Daggett’s plans in Gotham to take over the Wayne Board. Daggett uses Selina to steal Bruce’s finger prints and Bane to steal the stock data. He uses Bruce’s fingerprints to spunk Wayne’s money on bad options from the stock data, leaving him broke and having to leave the board. At this point Wayne approaches Miranda to take over, giving her and Bane the easy access they need to the clean energy device. Daggett is no longer needed so Bane does away with him (love that scene, as Bane puts his hand gently on Daggett’s shoulder “Do you feel in control?”). As part of payment for helping Daggett, Bane has taken control of his construction crews all over the city, setting up the explosives. It’s suggested during Banes final chat with Daggett that the plan is simply to destroy Gotham with it. There is no plan to cause the revolution, its simply destruction. However, that changes when somehow Miranda learns that Bruce is Batman – they talk about his scars when they’re fireside, and I think the only real explanation is she makes the leap that he is Batman?? – Bane and Bat’s get it on and that’s when the plan evolves into the torture of Bruce/Batman’s soul using Gotham. That only becomes part of the plan once they learn who Wayne really is. During the finale Miranda/Talia talks about forcing Bruce to feel the fire of a million souls etc suggesting that her, Bane and their Band of Mercs are more of a cult than initially suggested. They’re all going to die in the fire of Gotham, it’s only really suggested in two or three lines of dialogue, but it is there and does make sense – in a rather round about way!


I think it's safe to assume that she had gotten that information from members of the League of Shadows long before the events depicted in the film.


< Message edited by thedrin -- 27/7/2012 2:03:08 PM >

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Post #: 286
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:16:59 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
That was my take on it as well. Both Bane and Tate know who Batman is when they start their "mission".

Also I think needing and wanting to see a film numerous times can sometimes be a plus point. The first viewing will always be the most visceral of the experiences and things will get missed but the fact that you need to see it again to pick up all the nuances can mean that the film has been well crafted.


_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

(in reply to thedrin)
Post #: 287
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:21:59 PM   
porntrooper

 

Posts: 2616
Joined: 6/9/2006
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: porntrooper
Once Pavel published the details on how he could turn that clean energy device into a neutron bomb, Bruce shut the project down. That’s when he goes into hiding, and it’s suggested that its approx 3 years ago. With Wayne in hiding and the project dead, Miranda needs a way onto the Wayne Enterprise Board so she can shut out Wayne and get access to the project again (so she and Bane can use Pavel to turn the device to the neutron bomb and destroy Gotham). So, using Bane as the mercenary for hire working for Daggett, Bane does Daggett’s dirty work in Africa or wherever it is taking over oil companies. Then, Bane is to be used as the hired muscle for Daggett’s plans in Gotham to take over the Wayne Board. Daggett uses Selina to steal Bruce’s finger prints and Bane to steal the stock data. He uses Bruce’s fingerprints to spunk Wayne’s money on bad options from the stock data, leaving him broke and having to leave the board. At this point Wayne approaches Miranda to take over, giving her and Bane the easy access they need to the clean energy device. Daggett is no longer needed so Bane does away with him (love that scene, as Bane puts his hand gently on Daggett’s shoulder “Do you feel in control?”). As part of payment for helping Daggett, Bane has taken control of his construction crews all over the city, setting up the explosives. It’s suggested during Banes final chat with Daggett that the plan is simply to destroy Gotham with it. There is no plan to cause the revolution, its simply destruction. However, that changes when somehow Miranda learns that Bruce is Batman – they talk about his scars when they’re fireside, and I think the only real explanation is she makes the leap that he is Batman?? – Bane and Bat’s get it on and that’s when the plan evolves into the torture of Bruce/Batman’s soul using Gotham. That only becomes part of the plan once they learn who Wayne really is. During the finale Miranda/Talia talks about forcing Bruce to feel the fire of a million souls etc suggesting that her, Bane and their Band of Mercs are more of a cult than initially suggested. They’re all going to die in the fire of Gotham, it’s only really suggested in two or three lines of dialogue, but it is there and does make sense – in a rather round about way!


I think it's safe to assume that she had gotten that information from members of the League of Shadows long before the events depicted in the film.



But as I said in the other thread, that's never mentioned and it is clear this isn't the LoS. This is Talia's cult that are all going to die in the fire, that wasn't the purpose of the LoS in Begins. They (Bane) were excommunicated (Jesus, how often was that word used?!?!) from the LoS. Maybe that is Nolan's explanation of how Talia and Bane know about Bruce as Bat's, but if so, it's even weaker than the suggestion she learns it after sleeping with Bruce, cos this is not the same LoS. If the suggestion is that Talia knows from previous League members, then what the hell is the scar scene all about - that has no payoff at all. Again, from what is shown on film, we know this isnt the LoS and Talia gets close enough to Bruce to see, discuss and feel his scars. He dissapears from their bed (fireside) and enters the sewers as Batman, Bane confirms he knows who he is.

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Post #: 288
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:25:57 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
I like the theory but the fact that Bane has been building his base under applied sciences in Wayne Enterprises indicates to me that he already knew Bruce was Batman.

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Post #: 289
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:33:47 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Yeah, a lot of the supposed errorsbrought up in this thread really don't exist. But actually the one about Miranda tate that you said does, doesn't either. Baffled when someone brought it up I purposely looked out for it next time but it's simply not there. Bruce sees Miranda when he is brought before Lucius and tells her he'll come back for her. He and Lucius are then taken away with Selina. Lucius and Bruce go off to get him armed up whilst Miranda and Gordon and his men are taken before Crane in the court and sentenced to death by exile. Bane tells the guards to bring Miranda to him and leaves with her. Bruce then rescues Gordon but Miranda isn't there so he asks where she is. Where is the error?


Fox and Tate are found 23 days before the bomb goes off. We do not see Fox again until the day the bomb goes off.
A day before the bomb goes off, Tate offers to help the cops. We don't know where she or Fox have been for the last 22 days.
Gordon, cops, and Tate are taken to the court. Bane requests Tate.
Wayne is captured and is probably brought to the court or a related location under the control of the bad guys. He meets Fox and Tate. This is the first time we see Fox in 22 days. He, presumably, has been at the mercy of the bad guys for all of this time. But Fox would have arrived with Tate. So from his perspective Tate has arrived with him under guard, left, and arrived again after she was captured with the cops. He may not know that she was brought in with the cops.
Kyle escorts Fox and Wayne away from where they are being held. Miranda stays behind. Fox helps Wayne become Batman.
Batman rescues the cops. He asks where Tate is. he has just seen her - she was brought in with the cops before Wayne was captured.


Why would Miranda have been brought in with Fox? She escapes when he is captured. Plus the fact that she is Talia means that we can probably guess where she has been in the missing time. Plus, Miranda is definitley sentenced after meeting Bruce. So Batman expects to see her with Gordon and the cops when he resuces them from death by exile, but she isn't there because Bane has taken her away after their sentencing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

Also Gordon survives the crash? So what? Talia is killed by the front of the truck crumbling in on her not the crash itself. It wasn't that big of a drop so Gordon could have easily survived it with a few bumps, cuts and bruises.


Of the one's listed, this is the least jarring. I don't object to his survival at all, but getting thrown around that space is pretty dangerous. I can buy into the idea that adrenaline is keeping him going through any pain.



Yeah, but he could just as easily have survived it. It's a smaller drop that Blake gets thrown down by the guy from Stargate.


< Message edited by Vadersville -- 27/7/2012 2:34:48 PM >


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Post #: 290
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:34:53 PM   
porntrooper

 

Posts: 2616
Joined: 6/9/2006
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob

I like the theory but the fact that Bane has been building his base under applied sciences in Wayne Enterprises indicates to me that he already knew Bruce was Batman.


That's a good point actually. Totally forgot that. That then really sticks with me as an awful piece of assumption on the audience's part, it's never referrenced that Talia and Bane's men are the LoS or the remnants of the LoS. Plus it makes Talia's final speech to Bat's total bullshit and it makes their plans even more crazy than they already were. Haha, damn, the plot of this film is fucking bonkers.

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Post #: 291
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:36:32 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob

I like the theory but the fact that Bane has been building his base under applied sciences in Wayne Enterprises indicates to me that he already knew Bruce was Batman.


Yeah, Talia even says how Bruce murdered her father and Bane talks about how he was a member of the League of Shadows. They know about the events of BB. It's not like the League were all killed in the first film, taking the knowledge with them.

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Post #: 292
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:38:56 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: porntrooper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob

I like the theory but the fact that Bane has been building his base under applied sciences in Wayne Enterprises indicates to me that he already knew Bruce was Batman.


That's a good point actually. Totally forgot that. That then really sticks with me as an awful piece of assumption on the audience's part, it's never referrenced that Talia and Bane's men are the LoS or the remnants of the LoS. Plus it makes Talia's final speech to Bat's total bullshit and it makes their plans even more crazy than they already were. Haha, damn, the plot of this film is fucking bonkers.


Yes it is. In fact, Alfred says just that in the cave. Bruce insists that he broke the league when Ra's died and that Bane is justa glorified mecerenary. But he is wrong. Bane also says that he is the new leader of the League of Shadows in their first fight.

Honestly, I am baffled at the amount of people picking holes in this film that simply don't exist. That's not to say there aren't flaws but the vast majority of the ones brought up in this thread are just down to people's poor memories...

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RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 2:43:43 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
I got that, it's them only existing to satisfy Talia's revenge is what is extremely disappointing.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
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Post #: 294
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 3:07:50 PM   
jobloffski

 

Posts: 1894
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: elsewhere
Almost every war ever fought has its roots in the personal umbrage of wealthy/powerful individuals or the umbrage of those who became powerful enough to start a war against the source of their umbrage

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Post #: 295
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 3:32:44 PM   
porntrooper

 

Posts: 2616
Joined: 6/9/2006
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville


Yes it is. In fact, Alfred says just that in the cave. Bruce insists that he broke the league when Ra's died and that Bane is justa glorified mecerenary. But he is wrong. Bane also says that he is the new leader of the League of Shadows in their first fight.

Honestly, I am baffled at the amount of people picking holes in this film that simply don't exist. That's not to say there aren't flaws but the vast majority of the ones brought up in this thread are just down to people's poor memories...


I think a lot of people's gripes about Rises have been pretty nitpicky (cops beards etc) and some of the supposed plot holes aren't really there and are explained and hinted at by dialogue. However, I think the reveal of Bane knowing of Batman is definately a plot point that's handled really poorly...... it's never really explained in the movie, or even hinted in a way that you can derive a solid answer to it.

Bane doesn't say he's leading the League of Shadows, Bane say's he is the shadows. Both Talia and Bane confirm they've returned to fulfil Ras' destiny, they don't mention leading the LoS once. Bane himself was was kicked out of the LoS by Ras' (that's what Alfred explains - "When a man is too extreme for Ras Al Ghul etc etc" - he doesn't say Bane leads them) and Talia herself confirms that. There is never any suggestion that when Batman beat the LoS, it's surviving members escaped to return to Talia. I accept that as Bane lives under Applied Science, he has to know Bruce is Batman way in advance, but the revelation and explanation of how he knows is handled terribly on screen. A definate flaw in the plot for me.

Alfred

_____________________________

"I've got an idea for a special infiltration technique. It involves draining a man of his blood and replacing it with Tizer."

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Post #: 296
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 4:01:17 PM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3092
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: porntrooper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville


Yes it is. In fact, Alfred says just that in the cave. Bruce insists that he broke the league when Ra's died and that Bane is justa glorified mecerenary. But he is wrong. Bane also says that he is the new leader of the League of Shadows in their first fight.

Honestly, I am baffled at the amount of people picking holes in this film that simply don't exist. That's not to say there aren't flaws but the vast majority of the ones brought up in this thread are just down to people's poor memories...


I think a lot of people's gripes about Rises have been pretty nitpicky (cops beards etc) and some of the supposed plot holes aren't really there and are explained and hinted at by dialogue. However, I think the reveal of Bane knowing of Batman is definately a plot point that's handled really poorly...... it's never really explained in the movie, or even hinted in a way that you can derive a solid answer to it.

Bane doesn't say he's leading the League of Shadows, Bane say's he is the shadows. Both Talia and Bane confirm they've returned to fulfil Ras' destiny, they don't mention leading the LoS once. Bane himself was was kicked out of the LoS by Ras' (that's what Alfred explains - "When a man is too extreme for Ras Al Ghul etc etc" - he doesn't say Bane leads them) and Talia herself confirms that. There is never any suggestion that when Batman beat the LoS, it's surviving members escaped to return to Talia. I accept that as Bane lives under Applied Science, he has to know Bruce is Batman way in advance, but the revelation and explanation of how he knows is handled terribly on screen. A definate flaw in the plot for me.

Alfred


Actually Alfred says both. Yes he says that Bane was too extreme for Ra's Al Ghul, but he also says that Bane is the new leader of the LoS. Something which whilst Bruce dismisses, insiting the League is no more, is made abdundantly clear is true. Although the later reveal is that Talia is the power behind the power.

Also whilst Bane does say "I am the League of Shadows", I fail to see how this disproves that he is leading what remains of the league. During the fight he refers to him and his men as the league, specifically "You betrayed us.".

As I said, it stands to reason that at least one (if not a few) of the surviving members told Talia / Bane of the events of BB (Bruce admits that after their defeat the League scattered). Do we really need to see a flashback to this? Nolan isn't the kind of director to spoon feed his audience and this wasn't something that needed really going into.

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Post #: 297
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 4:15:09 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

quote:

ORIGINAL: jobloffski

Almost every war ever fought has its roots in the personal umbrage of wealthy/powerful individuals or the umbrage of those who became powerful enough to start a war against the source of their umbrage


And compare that with Joker or Ra's and it become really facile.

quote:



I think a lot of people's gripes about Rises have been pretty nitpicky (cops beards etc)


I wouldn't call it nitpicky, I'd call it being good at detail that give a sense of time and scale of the events. If 30 Days of Night could do it, so could Nolan.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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Post #: 298
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 4:19:23 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20118
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
Yeah but 30 Days of Night was a bit poo...

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Post #: 299
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 27/7/2012 4:27:32 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4384
Joined: 5/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Yeah but 30 Days of Night was a bit poo...


It was ok,but the comic is better

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Post #: 300
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