quote:

ORIGINAL: fiercehairdo

I was thinking more of Batman deliberately breaking Maroney's legs. That got the desired result. And Batman didn't even ask a question first. He asked after. That seemed to endorse torture as a tactic. It's OK to break legs to get info if you know that guy is a wrong'n... In real life torture doesn't work and is morally wrong in every way. My personal view, but I think one shared by Amnesty, Liberty etc...
But I don't want to get off onto a TDK discussion here - It is a TDKR thread after all. My initial post was simply to express disappointment that TDKR seems to be more of the same. The Guardian article articulates it quite well I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicals

Alright people-really this has gone too far. A long.long time ago two producers came up with the idea of making a full-length featue film version of the super-hero known as "Superman" Now because that movie was a succss we have "serious" comic book heros all over the cinema. We even have the name of the comic in the title as in "Marvel Presents" ..
But look here is the thing; sorry but however well they may be filmed and at what expense these films remain -or should do- kid'stuff. Oh sure as with the so called "Video Games" you can make them dark,violent and nasty but well, you could do that with an Enid Blyton story too-still it would remain at base children's material gussied up for immature adults.
Because this is what Hollywood is selling and what millions of mentally retarded people are buying. Endless wishful thinking pieces of garbage in which all our problems are solved by super heroes with fantasy powers.
Please people grow up. Life is not like that; ask any President or Prime Minister. Where were these Super people during the Second World War? Or 9/11?
Right now we are on our third go-round with some of these guys and it is getting downright silly how many people are prepared to buy old stuff in n ew boxes. For the record the above movie is about "Batman" Remember him? How in heaven's name being American he became a "Knight" beats me! And soon we are getting "The Man Of Steel" hmm..wonder who he can be?
The really ridiculous thing though is that "Empire" terrified to scare off it's fan readership has treated the movie as if it were a classic of some sort. Well..maybe but somehow,mercifully, I cannot see this getting much of a mention during the "Awards Season"
Ah yes..those. Thank god this summer's usual cache of super rubbish will soon be over and those of us who like to actually have to think whilst watching a movie will get out turn again!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicals

Alright people-really this has gone too far. A long.long time ago two producers came up with the idea of making a full-length featue film version of the super-hero known as "Superman" Now because that movie was a succss we have "serious" comic book heros all over the cinema. We even have the name of the comic in the title as in "Marvel Presents" ..
But look here is the thing; sorry but however well they may be filmed and at what expense these films remain -or should do- kid'stuff. Oh sure as with the so called "Video Games" you can make them dark,violent and nasty but well, you could do that with an Enid Blyton story too-still it would remain at base children's material gussied up for immature adults.
Because this is what Hollywood is selling and what millions of mentally retarded people are buying. Endless wishful thinking pieces of garbage in which all our problems are solved by super heroes with fantasy powers.
Please people grow up. Life is not like that; ask any President or Prime Minister. Where were these Super people during the Second World War? Or 9/11?
Right now we are on our third go-round with some of these guys and it is getting downright silly how many people are prepared to buy old stuff in n ew boxes. For the record the above movie is about "Batman" Remember him? How in heaven's name being American he became a "Knight" beats me! And soon we are getting "The Man Of Steel" hmm..wonder who he can be?
The really ridiculous thing though is that "Empire" terrified to scare off it's fan readership has treated the movie as if it were a classic of some sort. Well..maybe but somehow,mercifully, I cannot see this getting much of a mention during the "Awards Season"
Ah yes..those. Thank god this summer's usual cache of super rubbish will soon be over and those of us who like to actually have to think whilst watching a movie will get out turn again!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
Besides, at my age, I don't get called 'boy' very often.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
Besides, at my age, I don't get called 'boy' very often.

You get called pre-teen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

Is this your way of introducing yourself to other pre-teens?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why can't a film from a comic book be 'high art'? If it appears to pretend to that type of thing it's only fair to judge it on that, surely? Not all comic books are for kids and some of these characters were born out of real world issues. Different runs of different comics do different things.

To suggest it should have a get-out clause from serious criticism if the attempt is to make a serious film is pretty condescending towards the writers and filmmakers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

I'm actually investigating, you sound suspicious, very suspicious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob
As for the Dark Knight though, and as Girv says, it's not an endorsement as much as it is a comment. It's also pretty balanced in my opinion. Fox states that the technology is wrong and is too powerful for one man and ultimately destroys it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Musicals wins the award for daftest post yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiercehairdo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiercehairdo

OK, I'm sure this post is gonna get the Nolan fanboy's foaming at the mouth but it has to be said...

Read this short article which sums up Nolan's Bat Franchise strong tendency to endorse very iffy Right-Wing politics: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2012/jul/17/dark-knight-rises-capitalist-superhero

I completely agree with this piece.

The truth is, The Dark Knight endorsed torture, Extraordinary Rendition, phone-tapping and mass invasion of privacy by the film's 'hero'. It endorsed suspending peoples rights in the cause of fighting terrorism. In other words it endorsed the fascistic neo-con right wing politics of Bush, Cheney et al.

The Dark Knight Rises portrays the Billionaire as the good guy, imposing his will on the anarchic masses (read Occupy movement) who are in fact in thrall to criminal thugs like Bane. Anyone watching the news lately cannot have failed to have notice that in reality the billionaires (Murdoch, Diamond etc) of the world rarely are operating for the wider good and the protesting masses (Occupy movement) very often have justice and moral good on their side. TDKR inverts this view to billionaires good, protesting masses bad.

In other words it just continues and emphasises the deeply retrograde, conservative, right wing politics of the previous film.

Yes they are very slick, quite exciting and stylish films. BUT if we are going to take them seriously as great movies please lets not ignore the wider message of the films: that human rights and laws can be suspended by the wealthy if they believe what they do is right; that vigilante action is justifiable; that torturers are heroes when operating with the right intentions; that capitalist wealth domination is a force for good and movements like Occupy need to be suppressed. A pretty depressing agenda in my view.

I know many are going to reply "it's just a fantasy; it's just a film about a man dressed as a bat - don't take it too seriously". But frankly those same people are often the ones comparing these films to The Godfather and Citizen Kane - are we taking them seriously or not??? Indeed Nolan and his collaborators seem to be taking it VERY seriously hence the portentous tone of the franchise. If it is a masterpiece as people claim it should be seriously examined, and if it is ultimately pushing a very conservative agenda on audiences under the disguise of stunning action and various bat-gadgets well that needs exposing. Especially since the mass love-in of Nolan has now got completely out of hand.

Bring on the attacks...

It doesn't endorse all of them.

Batman beats the Joker up and it amounts to nothing.
Batman uses the sonic technology but Fox stands up to him.

The movie isn't about endorsement  - it is about what are the limits people are willing to go to protect their society. Nolan tests the various ideas that underpinned the War on Terror. In some instances it works,  in most it doesn't. It is hardly an endorsement of the Bush culture but rather a mirror to it. Big difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the 1989 Batman didn't he bomb an entire factory and do much similar stuff to these current films, only difference being the latest films tend to be set against more realistic contemporary backgrounds.
I wonder does fiercehairdo get worked up as much with Michael Moores films and their agenda?

Fox stands up to the phone-tapping thing but it's a pretty empty gesture since he actively collaborated in the rendition of the guy from Hong Kong and most of Batman's other dodgy tactics. The film just wanted to have its cake and eat it - condemn it then indulge in it.

And the Rendition, torture of Maroney and phone-tapping/survellance is shown to work and the presentation of Batman as a hero for using these methods amounts to endorsement. Even his one moral code about not killing is undermined in the end by Batman killing Harvey Dent. Morally, the best that can be said about these films is they are very confused, and the worst that they amount to right-wing propaganda.

And yes of course lots of Hollywood produce is rightwing violent dumbness. But then that stuff isn't usually held up as a masterpiece of art that we should take seriously. I'm just applying the judgement criteria I'd apply to any great work of cinema - look at the deeper meanings and give them due consideration. The more one thinks about these films rather than just revelling in the stylish action, the more they become very questionable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paul_ie86

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiercehairdo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiercehairdo

OK, I'm sure this post is gonna get the Nolan fanboy's foaming at the mouth but it has to be said...

Read this short article which sums up Nolan's Bat Franchise strong tendency to endorse very iffy Right-Wing politics: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2012/jul/17/dark-knight-rises-capitalist-superhero

I completely agree with this piece.

The truth is, The Dark Knight endorsed torture, Extraordinary Rendition, phone-tapping and mass invasion of privacy by the film's 'hero'. It endorsed suspending peoples rights in the cause of fighting terrorism. In other words it endorsed the fascistic neo-con right wing politics of Bush, Cheney et al.

The Dark Knight Rises portrays the Billionaire as the good guy, imposing his will on the anarchic masses (read Occupy movement) who are in fact in thrall to criminal thugs like Bane. Anyone watching the news lately cannot have failed to have notice that in reality the billionaires (Murdoch, Diamond etc) of the world rarely are operating for the wider good and the protesting masses (Occupy movement) very often have justice and moral good on their side. TDKR inverts this view to billionaires good, protesting masses bad.

In other words it just continues and emphasises the deeply retrograde, conservative, right wing politics of the previous film.

Yes they are very slick, quite exciting and stylish films. BUT if we are going to take them seriously as great movies please lets not ignore the wider message of the films: that human rights and laws can be suspended by the wealthy if they believe what they do is right; that vigilante action is justifiable; that torturers are heroes when operating with the right intentions; that capitalist wealth domination is a force for good and movements like Occupy need to be suppressed. A pretty depressing agenda in my view.

I know many are going to reply "it's just a fantasy; it's just a film about a man dressed as a bat - don't take it too seriously". But frankly those same people are often the ones comparing these films to The Godfather and Citizen Kane - are we taking them seriously or not??? Indeed Nolan and his collaborators seem to be taking it VERY seriously hence the portentous tone of the franchise. If it is a masterpiece as people claim it should be seriously examined, and if it is ultimately pushing a very conservative agenda on audiences under the disguise of stunning action and various bat-gadgets well that needs exposing. Especially since the mass love-in of Nolan has now got completely out of hand.

Bring on the attacks...

It doesn't endorse all of them.

Batman beats the Joker up and it amounts to nothing.
Batman uses the sonic technology but Fox stands up to him.

The movie isn't about endorsement  - it is about what are the limits people are willing to go to protect their society. Nolan tests the various ideas that underpinned the War on Terror. In some instances it works,  in most it doesn't. It is hardly an endorsement of the Bush culture but rather a mirror to it. Big difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the 1989 Batman didn't he bomb an entire factory and do much similar stuff to these current films, only difference being the latest films tend to be set against more realistic contemporary backgrounds.
I wonder does fiercehairdo get worked up as much with Michael Moores films and their agenda?

Fox stands up to the phone-tapping thing but it's a pretty empty gesture since he actively collaborated in the rendition of the guy from Hong Kong and most of Batman's other dodgy tactics. The film just wanted to have its cake and eat it - condemn it then indulge in it.

And the Rendition, torture of Maroney and phone-tapping/survellance is shown to work and the presentation of Batman as a hero for using these methods amounts to endorsement. Even his one moral code about not killing is undermined in the end by Batman killing Harvey Dent. Morally, the best that can be said about these films is they are very confused, and the worst that they amount to right-wing propaganda.

And yes of course lots of Hollywood produce is rightwing violent dumbness. But then that stuff isn't usually held up as a masterpiece of art that we should take seriously. I'm just applying the judgement criteria I'd apply to any great work of cinema - look at the deeper meanings and give them due consideration. The more one thinks about these films rather than just revelling in the stylish action, the more they become very questionable.

I have a question. If a film endorses a conservative or right-wing message does that mean that it is automatically a worse film?

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Musicals wins the award for daftest post yet.

Yes. Total stream of consciousness bobbins...

quote:


I have a question. If a film endorses a conservative or right-wing message does that mean that it is automatically a worse film?

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49 (via Gizoogle)

Gentleman, please - could our crazy-ass asses leave dis thread ta gangstas wantin ta say shit bout a funky-ass bad film?

quote:

ORIGINAL: burtbondy

1% self consumed Nolan lovers.

Do fans often ingnore the inconsistencies , contradictions and laughable plotholes in Nolan's Batman's, this can olso be argued for Inception,(to a higher degree) or are the just to complicated for fanatics to comprehend. Since ive seen comparisons to the Godfather on this thread, im leaning more to the latter. Its gotten out of hand. Is the Avengers up there with 12 Angry Men now?

fiercehairdo hit made some great points and there are many people who feel the same and could level out the reviews from good to average but are beyond arguing with fanatics who shout, sctatch, spit at anybody who is not within the limits of Nolan worship.

The heavy-handed morality , holier than thou attitude and sense of pop freudianism lays waste to my gut. Dont get angry with me now, unless you're telling me i cant have my own views on this subject.

Enjoy the movie prople. I'm out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: burtbondy

1% self consumed Nolan lovers.

Do fans often ingnore the inconsistencies , contradictions and laughable plotholes in Nolan's Batman's, this can olso be argued for Inception,(to a higher degree) or are the just to complicated for fanatics to comprehend. Since ive seen comparisons to the Godfather on this thread, im leaning more to the latter. Its gotten out of hand. Is the Avengers up there with 12 Angry Men now?

fiercehairdo hit made some great points and there are many people who feel the same and could level out the reviews from good to average but are beyond arguing with fanatics who shout, sctatch, spit at anybody who is not within the limits of Nolan worship.

The heavy-handed morality , holier than thou attitude and sense of pop freudianism lays waste to my gut. Dont get angry with me now, unless you're telling me i cant have my own views on this subject.

Enjoy the movie prople. I'm out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: burtbondy

1% self consumed Nolan lovers.

Do fans often ingnore the inconsistencies , contradictions and laughable plotholes in Nolan's Batman's, this can olso be argued for Inception,(to a higher degree) or are the just to complicated for fanatics to comprehend. Since ive seen comparisons to the Godfather on this thread, im leaning more to the latter. Its gotten out of hand. Is the Avengers up there with 12 Angry Men now?

fiercehairdo hit made some great points and there are many people who feel the same and could level out the reviews from good to average but are beyond arguing with fanatics who shout, sctatch, spit at anybody who is not within the limits of Nolan worship.

The heavy-handed morality , holier than thou attitude and sense of pop freudianism lays waste to my gut. Dont get angry with me now, unless you're telling me i cant have my own views on this subject.

Enjoy the movie prople. I'm out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: burtbondy

Don't let my typo lure you into thinking you're witty. It happens. I didn't calim to see the movie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: burtbondy

Enjoy the movie prople. I'm out.