cerebusboy
Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006
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ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker
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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy
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ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker
I've not actually said at any point that police commissioners get to send in the army, they get to escalate the matter to a higher power - you've just made that bit up yourself to find something to argue against. Effectively your debating with yourself - which you could do in your own mind and save me the hassle having to answer!!! 
Dude, you have invoked "send in the army" as what Gordon should have said (for what feels like  )dozens of times.
Er weren't we discussing you saying this : 'Again: POLICE COMMISIONERS DO NOT GET TO SEND IN THE ARMY. ' You're rather naughtily removing your own original comment to skew what we're talking about.
I said he should have escalated it and the higher ups would have made the decision (in a logical world) to back up Gordon with some extra firepower and bodies, at no point did I say Gordon has access to the army and you know it which is why you sneakily failed to include your own quote and not-so-subtly change this part of the discussion
It would take you two minutes to google "States of Emergency" "National Guard" and so on, which would provide a much better analogous fit to the DKR situation than referring to London which, as I say, has special forces, Royal Marines etc etc up the wazoo and so would indeed not need to call in regular units. Gordon has no such resources.
Any US city post 9/11 would have access to these resources if things got bad enough - that is if you actually bother to tell anyone you've got a problem. The reason we're debating is this because Gordon saw this as serious enough to call up every single cop in the city, but not inform any higher powers. Doesn't ring true at all. What Nolan should have done was insert a short scene with Gordon getting the brush off from the Mayor
NB as a fan of the Glorious Glasgow Rangers, kudos on the blue text! 
I like using that colour but have now changed to this one for the sake of clarity
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He never made the attempt though - it's silly to make such a big decision without escalating it.
No, because, if you're saying Gordon's actual decision was silly, then you're referring to what could have happened i.e. what, based on what we, the audience, know of Mayor Eyeliner's character, would he have done if Gordon had asked him to send in the National Guard.
Regardless of the mayor's attitude you'd expect someone like Gordon to at least have a crack - the fact that he didn't makes it silly.
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When he got accurate information that there's potentially an underground army operating in the sewers obviously! You'd think after 9/11 a police commissioner would actually bother to inform someone about a situation like this
Post 9/11 realities also resulted in a reassertion and clarification of the procedures for sending in the National Guard etc.Such procedures are nation wide; it would (to riot in understatement) be very bad form to whistle-blow a potential next 9/11 on the basis of guys with machineguns
It's a situation which requires a large force of armed individuals (i.e Gothams entire cop force). You'd expect someone higher up to be informed.
And Gordon was on a sick bed after he saw some soldiers. Nolan deliberately tells us that Modine does not take him seriously. Let's say - based on the INFORMATION WE THE AUDIENCE HAVE ON GORDON/MAYOR EYELINER etc - what do you think would have happened if Gordon HAD phoned Mayor Eyeliner from his hospital bed? Mayor Eyeliner would have said something like "Gordon, you're concussed, babbling wild rumours about armies in the sewer, I can't risk my credibility with the greater government... I've ambitions to be President Eyeliner one day!"
Had he done that it would have laid my mind partially to rest - but it still wouldn't have explained why you'd leave a city without a police force. The fact Gordon didn't even try is a crap job by Nolan.
And you're ignoring the point about timescale. If Mayor Eyeliner had phoned up the National Guard dude en route to the football game it would still have been too late. And if he'd phoned up the day before (say) then they wouldn't have acted without more proof, so the end effect would have been the same.
But this is the fatal flaw in the plotting - if Mayor Eyeliner had been told about it, then escalated it to a national level, in the meantime the bridges would have been blown and every single policeman would have been available to take on Bane That would blow a hole in Bane's takeover of the city, hence Nolan could not allow this to happen. That is why all the cops were sent underground and such a serious situation was not escalated to a higher level. Because in a logical series of events Bane would have at the very least Gotham's police force to deal with if not the National Guard and US Army to boot
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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy
Hey, if you think this is bad, check out the Batman v Bane ( ) style, 549 message strong Jim Gordon's Dry-Cleaning/DKR plot holes thread http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/07/27/dark-knight-rises-sound-fury-theme-story-review-batman-plot-holes/
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Jesus are you actually debating Jim Gordon's drycleaning? At least this thread relates to a major plot point
The guy maintains that Gordon would never have forgotten the speech in his pocket because he would definitely have cleaned his suit! When I pointed out that people don't dry clean suits weekly, let alone every few days, he claimed that the daily brushing-off-stains form of suit cleaning, posited as the universal norm, would definitely involve removal of items from the pocket ergo Bane finding the speech is a plot hole. Now however he's claiming that Gordon definitely has a different suit on in the Sewer scene when compared to Harvey Dent Day, so he must have transferred the speech, which is implausible! I'm wondering if it would be sad for me to go and see Dark Knight Rises for a fourth time and pay special attention to Gordon's clothing in order to settle the debate  
To be fair Bane getting a hold of the speech wasn't even something that was even remotely on my radar!
Dude, your excessive bright colours are making things a bit hard to follow! You're the Joel Schumaker of email formatting
I don't want to do a (Cable-style!) trawl through all the old messages, but you referred repeatedly to sending in the army. Did you do so knowing that Gordon could not so, and if so why did we have analogies about London etc rather than discussing the facts about chain of command in US contexts
You claim that there should have been a scene of Gordon taking things further. But you also seem to take at least some of my points on the nature of Gordon and Mayor Eyeliners character. If Gordon DID inform Mayor Eyeliner, then do you not thing that Mayor Eyeliner would have told him not to do anything until he knows more? Furthermore, do you not think that GORDON would know that that would be Mayor Eyeliner's response? If things had played out as you'd suggest, then we would have have had people complaining about the "plot hole" of Gordon informing Mayor Eyeliner and having his attempts stymied as a result ("Don't do anything Gordon, that's a direct order!") when we've had two films of Gordon being canny in what he informs others about in order to get the Policing job done!
No, a post-911 American city would not have access to the Royal Marines  Again, the rules on States of Emergency are things you can easily look up. A police commissioner having SUSPICIONS of an underground army would in no way be deemed a sufficient basis to send in the National Guard. If Gordon suspected an urgent situation but KNEW (as he would) that Mayor Eyeliners would not "escalate" matters without proof, then would he not indeed respond with the sources available to him? Do you really think it's more plausible for Gordon to ask Mayor Eyeliners to send in the national guard (even although Gordon would know Mayor Eyeliner wouldn't do so without proof), getting the brush off, and then acting as he does anyway? A bit anticlimatic from a dramatic perspective and with the same net effect no? People have noted that it's a bit dumb in Dark Knight when Harvey Dent explains the RICO act, which Gordon would already know. A pointless drama killing scene of
Gordon: I think there's an underground army, send in the National Guard
Mayor Eyeliners: I'd need far more proof than that Gordon, and dammit you know it! Now get out of my office I've got a beautician's appointment in an hour
would be considerably worse, and would not even serve the audience/story in a manner that can justify the throwaway RICO line in DK.
Does "no more dead cops" not ring a bell We would have lots of scenes of blackgate prisoners gunning down the police with automatic weapons.
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