quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



At the point you realise there's a dangerous madman with an underground army operating in your city any self respecting leader would call the White House and bring in the troops. You wouldn't call up every single damn cop in the city and send them underground - the word here is 'army' as well. You don't send cops against an army, you send an army against them.

Who is the 'you' in this scenario? Gordon? Mayor Eyeliner? 'Get the White House on the line' is far more of an unrealistic movie cliche (''Uh, Mr President, you've got some cop in Gotham on line 1. Says there's some dudes in his sewers") than what actually happens.

Gordon doesn't have the power to send in the army. He has cops, which is what he sends.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



If you're asking why the Government doesn't immediately get involved AFTER the police get trapped in the sewer the answer is there's no time. The police are trapped, the bomb goes off at the football game, the bridges are blown, the General dude starts flights and phones the President.

And, to go to my own point, you see that the person in DKR who contacts the White House is a very senior member of the military who does so after CONFIRMATION of a nuclear threat. That's plausible. A police commissioner phoning up to get the National Guard because he SUSPECTS an underground army is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



At the point you realise there's a dangerous madman with an underground army operating in your city any self respecting leader would call the White House and bring in the troops. You wouldn't call up every single damn cop in the city and send them underground - the word here is 'army' as well. You don't send cops against an army, you send an army against them.

Who is the 'you' in this scenario? Gordon? Mayor Eyeliner? 'Get the White House on the line' is far more of an unrealistic movie cliche (''Uh, Mr President, you've got some cop in Gotham on line 1. Says there's some dudes in his sewers") than what actually happens.

Gordon doesn't have the power to send in the army. He has cops, which is what he sends.

Gordon has (you would hope) the intelligence to look at a situation and make a smart decision - he patently makes one of dumbest ones in any of the Nolan movies.

You guys have been arguing that he sends the cops down there because there's an army of baddies - now it's 'some dudes in the sewers' - if it's just some random bods pissing about in the sewers you don't call up every single cop in Gotham.

Either they are major threat or they are not - if they are a major threat you escalate the matter which is what Gordon should have done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



If you're asking why the Government doesn't immediately get involved AFTER the police get trapped in the sewer the answer is there's no time. The police are trapped, the bomb goes off at the football game, the bridges are blown, the General dude starts flights and phones the President.

And, to go to my own point, you see that the person in DKR who contacts the White House is a very senior member of the military who does so after CONFIRMATION of a nuclear threat. That's plausible. A police commissioner phoning up to get the National Guard because he SUSPECTS an underground army is not.

And sending the entire police force of a city underground because he suspects there is an underground army operating is plausible? It's not in any way shape or form

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



Gordon has (you would hope) the intelligence to look at a situation and make a smart decision - he patently makes one of dumbest ones in any of the Nolan movies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



Gordon has (you would hope) the intelligence to look at a situation and make a smart decision - he patently makes one of dumbest ones in any of the Nolan movies.

It SEEMS dumb because of the consequences. Do you really think Gordon should have been thinking "man, I'd better hold lots of units off in case there's a bunch of explosives, established over a period of months, big enough to trap every cop in the city down in the sewers"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

He has the authority to contact higher powers and inform them of the situation - why is this not a logicial move if you expect an army to be forming up underground? Are you trying to tell me this would make less sense than sending every cop in Gotham underground

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker



Gordon has (you would hope) the intelligence to look at a situation and make a smart decision - he patently makes one of dumbest ones in any of the Nolan movies.

It SEEMS dumb because of the consequences. Do you really think Gordon should have been thinking "man, I'd better hold lots of units off in case there's a bunch of explosives, established over a period of months, big enough to trap every cop in the city down in the sewers"?

It is dumb regardless of them getting trapped because there's no one policing the city for starters!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

But you're contradicting your self, on one hand your arguing it's a 'calling all units' potential terrorist threat which would equate to a guaranteed escalation to higher powers in any logical universe, and then in your other post you say he's just suspecting an underground army with no hard proof - why is that a 'calling all units potential terrorist threat'?

In either instance it's a dumb move to send all the cops down there, you either send a decent force (but not all of them) to check out the sewers or you call in for assistance from the government.

And are you telling me that Gotham is so crime free you can afford to take every single police officer off the streets? It's an invitation to a crime spree!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

But you're contradicting your self, on one hand your arguing it's a 'calling all units' potential terrorist threat which would equate to a guaranteed escalation to higher powers in any logical universe, and then in your other post you say he's just suspecting an underground army with no hard proof - why is that a 'calling all units potential terrorist threat'?

In either instance it's a dumb move to send all the cops down there, you either send a decent force (but not all of them) to check out the sewers or you call in for assistance from the government.

And are you telling me that Gotham is so crime free you can afford to take every single police officer off the streets? It's an invitation to a crime spree!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

But you're contradicting your self, on one hand your arguing it's a 'calling all units' potential terrorist threat which would equate to a guaranteed escalation to higher powers in any logical universe,

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

But you're contradicting your self, on one hand your arguing it's a 'calling all units' potential terrorist threat which would equate to a guaranteed escalation to higher powers in any logical universe, and then in your other post you say he's just suspecting an underground army with no hard proof - why is that a 'calling all units potential terrorist threat'?

In either instance it's a dumb move to send all the cops down there, you either send a decent force (but not all of them) to check out the sewers or you call in for assistance from the government.

And are you telling me that Gotham is so crime free you can afford to take every single police officer off the streets? It's an invitation to a crime spree!

But we're talking about what decisions can actually be made. If GORDON thinks it's a potential terrorist threat then he can call all units correct? What are his options in that situation? If he phoned up Mayor Eyeliner, the Mayor (who we already seeing pissed with the press because he just wants to chillax and watch some american fitba) would still want some proof before sending in the National Guard, agreed?

the POLICE get the "calling all units" message, it would take a while for people to realise that there's no police around (do YOU know where your nearest police officers are right now? I don't, and I'm in Gotham-style Glasgow! )

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


It's a "calling all units" potential terrorist threat in an otherwise (because of the Dent Act) relatively crime-free Gotham. It wold certainly take precedence over handing out parking tickets or staking out the donut shop

But you're contradicting your self, on one hand your arguing it's a 'calling all units' potential terrorist threat which would equate to a guaranteed escalation to higher powers in any logical universe, and then in your other post you say he's just suspecting an underground army with no hard proof - why is that a 'calling all units potential terrorist threat'?

In either instance it's a dumb move to send all the cops down there, you either send a decent force (but not all of them) to check out the sewers or you call in for assistance from the government.

And are you telling me that Gotham is so crime free you can afford to take every single police officer off the streets? It's an invitation to a crime spree!

But we're talking about what decisions can actually be made. If GORDON thinks it's a potential terrorist threat then he can call all units correct? What are his options in that situation? If he phoned up Mayor Eyeliner, the Mayor (who we already seeing pissed with the press because he just wants to chillax and watch some american fitba) would still want some proof before sending in the National Guard, agreed?

the POLICE get the "calling all units" message, it would take a while for people to realise that there's no police around (do YOU know where your nearest police officers are right now? I don't, and I'm in Gotham-style Glasgow! )

Come on now your arguing that it's fine to remove all the cops from your city because no one will notice

In terms of decisions that can be made in the circumstances it's pretty clear :

If you know there's an underground army operating you escalate it to a higher power.
If you suspect there's an underground army operating you still inform a higher power and send a cop force down the sewers to investigate.

What you don't do is send every single cop in the city down the sewers! If you saw something like this in a non-Batman film you'd think it was dumb - admit it

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

I'd think having a police commisioner phone up the White House or call in the National Guard would be considerably dumberer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


If you suspect there's an underground army operating you still inform a higher power and send a cop force down the sewers to investigate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

I'd think having a police commisioner phone up the White House or call in the National Guard would be considerably dumberer

What it's more dumb to inform the government about an underground army operating in your city than to arbitrarily send every single cop in the city down the sewers without telling anyone higher up first? Maybe the reason he didn't do it was because he knew he risked being removed from his post for being insane. He's insane in the mem-Bane!!!

YOU KNOW IT'S DUMB - YOU KNOW IT!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

Really? I was thinking we'd spent a long time entering pedantic, nitpicky, joyless territory pointing out flaws that don't exist if you a) pay attention to the movie you're watching (this isn't a phenomenon unique to Batman... it's frustratingly common) and b) remember you're watching a blockbuster action movie and not some slice-of-life drama.

I never walked away from BB or TDK thinking there were some seriously dumb moments in those films ,

quote:

Any right minded ruthless baddie would have taken the cops out - the reason they were left alive was not because Bane never considered Batman would return, it's because Nolan knew Batman would return and needed the cops for a punchup with Bane's men.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

By the way having not ever read Batman comics what do people think about Bane onscreen and would there be anything in the comic book version of the character you would have liked to have seen.

And apologies if I've pissed anyone off here with me attacking TDKR - it's still a great film it's just because it's Nolan/ Bale that I feel the need to have a go at it, expectations are high!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

By the way having not ever read Batman comics what do people think about Bane onscreen and would there be anything in the comic book version of the character you would have liked to have seen.

And apologies if I've pissed anyone off here with me attacking TDKR - it's still a great film it's just because it's Nolan/ Bale that I feel the need to have a go at it, expectations are high!

Bane was absolutely amazing in the movie. He's a great character in the comics, but he's a bit cheesy in the luchadore mask and everything.

In the movie he's got a far better motivation, too. In the comics he just heard about Batman whilst in jail, and decided he wanted to break him and take over Gotham. Just to prove that he could it seems. It's all a bit arbritary. It would have been cool if he went about breaking Batman in the same way he did in the comics, though... breaking out the prisoners as the start of his plan to wear him down whilst he runs around bringing them all in, then when he's at his weakest point attacking Wayne Manor. But then I suppose in this movie Batman started at his weakest point, so that would have all been pretty pointless.

At first I was skeptical of Tom Hardy as the character, just as I was skeptical of Heath Ledger as Joker and Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. All three of them absolutely blew me away with their performances from start to finish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

By the way having not ever read Batman comics what do people think about Bane onscreen and would there be anything in the comic book version of the character you would have liked to have seen.

And apologies if I've pissed anyone off here with me attacking TDKR - it's still a great film it's just because it's Nolan/ Bale that I feel the need to have a go at it, expectations are high!

Bane was absolutely amazing in the movie. He's a great character in the comics, but he's a bit cheesy in the luchadore mask and everything.

In the movie he's got a far better motivation, too. In the comics he just heard about Batman whilst in jail, and decided he wanted to break him and take over Gotham. Just to prove that he could it seems. It's all a bit arbritary. It would have been cool if he went about breaking Batman in the same way he did in the comics, though... breaking out the prisoners as the start of his plan to wear him down whilst he runs around bringing them all in, then when he's at his weakest point attacking Wayne Manor. But then I suppose in this movie Batman started at his weakest point, so that would have all been pretty pointless.

At first I was skeptical of Tom Hardy as the character, just as I was skeptical of Heath Ledger as Joker and Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. All three of them absolutely blew me away with their performances from start to finish.

You'd think after all this time (and the all-too-predictable howls of embarrassingly premature fanboy outrage which initially greeted Heath Ledger's casting as The Joker) that everyone would realise that Nolan knows what he's doing casting-wise. In all his films he hasn't put so much as an extra wrong yet. Not even the Coens cast their films better.

But then I hear premature overreaction is a problem which afflicts a lot of online fanboys

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

By the way having not ever read Batman comics what do people think about Bane onscreen and would there be anything in the comic book version of the character you would have liked to have seen.

And apologies if I've pissed anyone off here with me attacking TDKR - it's still a great film it's just because it's Nolan/ Bale that I feel the need to have a go at it, expectations are high!

Bane was absolutely amazing in the movie. He's a great character in the comics, but he's a bit cheesy in the luchadore mask and everything.

In the movie he's got a far better motivation, too. In the comics he just heard about Batman whilst in jail, and decided he wanted to break him and take over Gotham. Just to prove that he could it seems. It's all a bit arbritary. It would have been cool if he went about breaking Batman in the same way he did in the comics, though... breaking out the prisoners as the start of his plan to wear him down whilst he runs around bringing them all in, then when he's at his weakest point attacking Wayne Manor. But then I suppose in this movie Batman started at his weakest point, so that would have all been pretty pointless.

At first I was skeptical of Tom Hardy as the character, just as I was skeptical of Heath Ledger as Joker and Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. All three of them absolutely blew me away with their performances from start to finish.

You'd think after all this time (and the all-too-predictable howls of embarrassingly premature fanboy outrage which initially greeted Heath Ledger's casting as The Joker) that everyone would realise that Nolan knows what he's doing casting-wise. In all his films he hasn't put so much as an extra wrong yet. Not even the Coens cast their films better.

But then I hear premature overreaction is a problem which afflicts a lot of online fanboys

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

"I never thought this thing would go the distance."

(Lex Luthor, Superman II)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

No, just a five-year old with chickenpox which means I've been stuck in the hoose aw week!

(More like Rorschach levels of self-loathing, mate...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor


I wasn't outraged. A lot of people were outraged, but my skepticism went down to: "Really? That doesn't sound right, but whatever".

I myself had to remind a lot of people that were dead against Anne Hathaway doing it because she doesn't have the right image for Catwoman that this is why they call it "acting", and they should wait until seeing it to ultimately judge. It's not wrong to wonder how something that doesn't sound right is going to work, no?

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


If you suspect there's an underground army operating you still inform a higher power and send a cop force down the sewers to investigate.

How do you think that conversation would go?
GORDON: I suspect there's an underground army
MAYOR EYELINER : What evidence do you have?
GORDON: Er, not much

etc

And as Commissioner, Gordon has duty of care of the welfare of his men. You do not send a couple of units down if you have suspicion of an ARMY (i.e. lots of guys with automatic weapons who would easily kill a mere taskforce)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

Really? I was thinking we'd spent a long time entering pedantic, nitpicky, joyless territory pointing out flaws that don't exist if you a) pay attention to the movie you're watching (this isn't a phenomenon unique to Batman... it's frustratingly common) and b) remember you're watching a blockbuster action movie and not some slice-of-life drama.

I never walked away from BB or TDK thinking there were some seriously dumb moments in those films ,

Well you really weren't paying attention then:

BATMAN BEGINS
How did Alfred get The Batman down off that roof after he got gassed by The Scarecrow?

Why didn't that 'microwave emitter' thingie not cook everyone who was annywhere near it while it was vapurising the city's water supply?

What? Every riot cop in the city? Really? No, that's just dumb.

THE DARK KNIGHT
What becomes of The Joker and his hostages after Bats dives out the window after Rachel?

How could Gordon plan to fake his own death unless he knew in advance The Joker was going to shoot the Mayor at point blank range? Why not just arrest him then?

How did Bats know where Dent took The Joker's goon to interrogate him?

Why didn't Gordon just pin Dent's crimes on The Joker? There were no witnesses, it's not like The Joker's denials would have been believed and ultimately he was responsible!

And the real biggie: how come no-one ever seems to twig that either The Batman has a massive industrial organisation (with military contracts up the kazoo) backing him, he's the richest guy in the city or both? Or simply say: "Hang on a minute! I know you! You're Bruce Wayne - one of the richest and therefore most famous men in the world - in a bat-themed gimp suit which doesn't begin to disguise your distinctive mouth and teeth and putting on a none-too-convincing Clint Eastwood growl and I claim my five bucks!" Or something like that. Oh, I know - is it something to do with the willing suspension of disbelief, by any chance...?

(I could go on. But where would be the fun in that...?)

quote:

Any right minded ruthless baddie would have taken the cops out - the reason they were left alive was not because Bane never considered Batman would return, it's because Nolan knew Batman would return and needed the cops for a punchup with Bane's men.

Well, no shit, Sherlock! You'll be telling us that 007 always gets issued with just the right gadgets he'll need later to complete his mission next!