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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

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ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.

Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?

Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.

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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!



For f**k's sake people. You can't say Batman survived the ending. You literally saw him flying the Bat over the coastline with seconds to spare. As someone else pointed out, even if he jumped at the last minute, after we cut away from him, he still would have died. (I can't even see how he flew 6 miles so quickly).

It HAS to be that Alfred imagined him, because that was referenced earlier. Ok so he fixed the autopilot. So what? Doesn't mean he used it.

Again - we SAW it. We saw him fly out. I'm fed up with Directors / writers putting in cheap twists, showing us one thing then changing it later. It's so phoney.

Why don't we just re-write Wayne's parents back into the film. they MAY have survived! Ok so we see them get shot, but they could have been taken away and revived. What about Rachel? Maybe she survived too. What about Dent? Is he ALSO alive? Hey - maybe Bane is still around too. And Neeson's character.

I'm amazed that people are ok with this. If it turns out that Batman is still alive, I'll probably lose all respect for Nolan as a writer.

The reference earlier has Alfred saying he THINKS he sees Bruce at the cafe and then, when the guy turns round, immediately realises its someone else. Are we to believe that the ending is Alfred , in contrast, hallucinating and seeing someone who isn't actually there? That's like one of those Garfield without Garfield strips.This isn't Inception, and Alfred having a mental breakdown doesn't sound like much of a happy ending to me

But that's exactly my point. What is more likely? Batman survives a nuclear bomb, or Alfred is imagining things again, JUST like he did earlier? (or maybe there's a third option - that Nolan screwed up the ending). There's nothing wrong with showing Alfred imagining things. It's kinda poetic.

It depends what you mean by ''survives a nuclear bomb" The implication is that Batman deliberately timed it so he'd be outwith the blast radius, not that he had some kind of Bat-Nuclear Proofing Spray on or something. Was it just me, or did the actual explosion itself not seem a bit less than one would expect from a 'traditional' nuclear bomb?


I'd say ending on an overt fantasy sequence is indeed problematic. This isn't Dallas

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!



For f**k's sake people. You can't say Batman survived the ending. You literally saw him flying the Bat over the coastline with seconds to spare. As someone else pointed out, even if he jumped at the last minute, after we cut away from him, he still would have died. (I can't even see how he flew 6 miles so quickly).

It HAS to be that Alfred imagined him, because that was referenced earlier. Ok so he fixed the autopilot. So what? Doesn't mean he used it.

Again - we SAW it. We saw him fly out. I'm fed up with Directors / writers putting in cheap twists, showing us one thing then changing it later. It's so phoney.

Why don't we just re-write Wayne's parents back into the film. they MAY have survived! Ok so we see them get shot, but they could have been taken away and revived. What about Rachel? Maybe she survived too. What about Dent? Is he ALSO alive? Hey - maybe Bane is still around too. And Neeson's character.

I'm amazed that people are ok with this. If it turns out that Batman is still alive, I'll probably lose all respect for Nolan as a writer.

The reference earlier has Alfred saying he THINKS he sees Bruce at the cafe and then, when the guy turns round, immediately realises its someone else. Are we to believe that the ending is Alfred , in contrast, hallucinating and seeing someone who isn't actually there? That's like one of those Garfield without Garfield strips.This isn't Inception, and Alfred having a mental breakdown doesn't sound like much of a happy ending to me

But that's exactly my point. What is more likely? Batman survives a nuclear bomb, or Alfred is imagining things again, JUST like he did earlier? (or maybe there's a third option - that Nolan screwed up the ending). There's nothing wrong with showing Alfred imagining things. It's kinda poetic.

It depends what you mean by ''survives a nuclear bomb" The implication is that Batman deliberately timed it so he'd be outwith the blast radius, not that he had some kind of Bat-Nuclear Proofing Spray on or something. Was it just me, or did the actual explosion itself not seem a bit less than one would expect from a 'traditional' nuclear bomb?


I'd say ending on an overt fantasy sequence is indeed problematic. This isn't Dallas

I'll say it again. WE DIDNT SEE BATMAN JUMP OUT. Can I be any more clear than this? So again, if the answer is that he did jump but we just didn't see it, then I'm sorry - that's a really cheap narrative trick to play.

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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

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ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

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ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.

Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?

Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.

It does matter, because if there was only (say) 1/2 seconds left then you might have a point about a cheap trick ending. That wouldn't be true if technically there was a gap when Batman could have got out.


Batman is a master of disguise and escapes, so it's hardly a cheap trick that we weren't treated to a scene of him jumping out with a parachute on or something. None of his other sudden disappearances are explained!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.

Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?

Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.

It does matter, because if there was only (say) 1/2 seconds left then you might have a point about a cheap trick ending. That wouldn't be true if technically there was a gap when Batman could have got out.


Batman is a master of disguise and escapes, so it's hardly a cheap trick that we weren't treated to a scene of him jumping out with a parachute on or something. None of his other sudden disappearances are explained!

You are way too forgiving. There's nothing clever or sophisticated about hiding the truth from the audience. Nolan seems to rely on this far too much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

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ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.

He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: boostergold

There is one other thing you are all forgetting. As Bruce's will is read one of the things is that his mothers pearls are still missing. The cafe scene shows Selina wearing them. The last we saw of them was when Bruce removed them from Selina at the dance near the beginning of the film, where he states something along the lines of " they look really good on you, but I can't let you have them." Bruce Wayne is still alive for real and is with Selina Kyle thus finally heeding Alfreds advice.
The Bat Lucius is examining is clearly NOT Batmans because it blew up, and obviously left the auto-pilot fix on another one to let Fox know he survived, thus faking his own death. Bruce and Selina used the cleanslate software to no longer exist, and don't forget that blake has in his possesion a piece of paper with the co-ordinates to the location of the batcave. At some point in this film Bruce planned all this as contingency. Gotham believes Batman and Bruce to be dead and obviously not the same person. When Blake becomes Batman he has the same costume, weapons, tolls and vehicles that this Batman has always had. He can carry on and be immortal/supernatural AS A SYMBOL, as the criminals he meets will assume he is the Batman that has always been around.
The worst thing in the movie for me was the Robin shoehorn (it would have been better if the woman said "it says on your file your real name is Richard Grayson" or words to that effect), closely followed by Batman telling Gordon who he really is. I've always believed Gordon knew this(in the comics and films) but just never ever says a thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal

At 2:45hrs, the movie zipped along for me, however, I think the original post by Rgirvan44 highlighting their issues with the film mirrored my feelings fairly precisely, the key things for me ...

I believe the Miranda Tate twist should have occurred far earlier (ala Batman Begins with Liam Neeson), if used at all due total under development of the character reducing the 'twist' impact. There was absolutely no point in Bruce having boffed her at all for what remains of relationship plot after.

Batman shouldn't have been retired in the start and should have been on the run from the police while still putting the odd shift in, to build the menace of Bane i.e. that he could knock 10 bails of the proverbial out of Batman in his prime and not having to make a reasonable effort to defeat Batman with a walking stick.

The rematch of which was a total let down and anti-climax.

I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!

I couldn't understand everything he said, I don't care what the fanboys say and poor form from Nolan for not taking on board the criticism and making it all audible.

The timeline of events and lack of differing perspective around the 'city under hostage' story was ill paced and should have occurred earlier for me to build as the back drop for plot threads throughout the film.

What did they spend $230M on?! To me this wasn't Ben Hur film-makking as they had made out in the pre-release info. I felt TDK had a greater sense of scale to be honest.

Moving cities was a mistake for me, I'm sure you could have dressed up Chicago as an island somehow. It was too jarring for me for the architecture and style of city to suddenly change to Manhattan.

WTF happened to Selina's BFF?! She just disappeared! Would have been a better plot point if she was killed during the revolution which spurred her into changing her ways and her perspective on good and bad.

Why bring up Robin?! That almost ruined the movie for me! While Blake was one of the best things in the film, I have to say, from a brutal point of view, if they'd not bothered with him and given his lines to Gordon it might have allowed other story aspects to develop further.

The thing that now really jars with me, and I now need a repeat viewing to clarify ... I couldn't believe people were assuming Bruce was still alive, for me, Alfred imagined him there as part of his fantasy and the fact the auto-pilot had been fixed was a nod to Bruce wanting to die and maintain the symbol for the people of Gotham .... until .... someone mentioned the bat signal mysteriously getting fixed and I immediately thought 'fuck'.... this has now got me worried that Nolan bottled it and really has jumped the shark trying to out do BB and TDK. It would make sense as well as Alfred was devastated at 'letting him down' and Bruce wanting to let him know everything was good.

This movie gets 3-stars for me at the mo. I have to say when I saw BB it was a 5* movie and still is (lean mean film-making for me), TDK was a 3* on first viewing due to my issues with plot contrivances (Gordon dying but not really, employee knowing Batman's identity padding out the runtime, the whole sonar thing), however on repeat viewing it's a 4.5* for me. Only another viewing will let me assess the movie with criticisms out of my system, however, I suspect it'll struggle to scrape much past a 4* (it won't at all if Bruce didn't die).

As an aside .... when writing a script don't the key actors and independent people get into a room with the script writer and try to tear the story to pieces to eradicate gaping plot holes? If not they should start. They seem to be getting worse - and I'm not aiming that solely at this film.

quote:

ORIGINAL: boostergold

I never said that Batman knows or suspects that Gordon knows who he really is, simply that Gordon himself knows or at least deep down suspects at any rate. He is a detective and the police commisioner, really how would he not know? He just doesn't have to say it to anyone or out loud (as we see in his two answers to Blake in the film). The second time he knows for sure too as Batman practically tells him. Its as though Gordon prefers Batman to be real inividual and seperate from Bruce Wayne. In this respect the film in places turned into a Burton or Schumacher Batman movie with all and sundry of the main cast knowing Bruce is Bats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal



I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!

.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Gordon clearly acts with surprise when he finds out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: parsonage84

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal

At 2:45hrs, the movie zipped along for me, however, I think the original post by Rgirvan44 highlighting their issues with the film mirrored my feelings fairly precisely, the key things for me ...

I believe the Miranda Tate twist should have occurred far earlier (ala Batman Begins with Liam Neeson), if used at all due total under development of the character reducing the 'twist' impact. There was absolutely no point in Bruce having boffed her at all for what remains of relationship plot after.

Batman shouldn't have been retired in the start and should have been on the run from the police while still putting the odd shift in, to build the menace of Bane i.e. that he could knock 10 bails of the proverbial out of Batman in his prime and not having to make a reasonable effort to defeat Batman with a walking stick.

The rematch of which was a total let down and anti-climax.

I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!

I couldn't understand everything he said, I don't care what the fanboys say and poor form from Nolan for not taking on board the criticism and making it all audible.

The timeline of events and lack of differing perspective around the 'city under hostage' story was ill paced and should have occurred earlier for me to build as the back drop for plot threads throughout the film.

What did they spend $230M on?! To me this wasn't Ben Hur film-makking as they had made out in the pre-release info. I felt TDK had a greater sense of scale to be honest.

Moving cities was a mistake for me, I'm sure you could have dressed up Chicago as an island somehow. It was too jarring for me for the architecture and style of city to suddenly change to Manhattan.

WTF happened to Selina's BFF?! She just disappeared! Would have been a better plot point if she was killed during the revolution which spurred her into changing her ways and her perspective on good and bad.

Why bring up Robin?! That almost ruined the movie for me! While Blake was one of the best things in the film, I have to say, from a brutal point of view, if they'd not bothered with him and given his lines to Gordon it might have allowed other story aspects to develop further.

The thing that now really jars with me, and I now need a repeat viewing to clarify ... I couldn't believe people were assuming Bruce was still alive, for me, Alfred imagined him there as part of his fantasy and the fact the auto-pilot had been fixed was a nod to Bruce wanting to die and maintain the symbol for the people of Gotham .... until .... someone mentioned the bat signal mysteriously getting fixed and I immediately thought 'fuck'.... this has now got me worried that Nolan bottled it and really has jumped the shark trying to out do BB and TDK. It would make sense as well as Alfred was devastated at 'letting him down' and Bruce wanting to let him know everything was good.

This movie gets 3-stars for me at the mo. I have to say when I saw BB it was a 5* movie and still is (lean mean film-making for me), TDK was a 3* on first viewing due to my issues with plot contrivances (Gordon dying but not really, employee knowing Batman's identity padding out the runtime, the whole sonar thing), however on repeat viewing it's a 4.5* for me. Only another viewing will let me assess the movie with criticisms out of my system, however, I suspect it'll struggle to scrape much past a 4* (it won't at all if Bruce didn't die).

As an aside .... when writing a script don't the key actors and independent people get into a room with the script writer and try to tear the story to pieces to eradicate gaping plot holes? If not they should start. They seem to be getting worse - and I'm not aiming that solely at this film.

As both former students of the League of Shadows, and that Thalia is now leading the LoS, i just went with the basis it wouldnt of been to difficult to put together that Bruce Wayne one of there former students is Batman,

quote:


ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

League of Shadows. If Ra's and all his footsoldiers (remember them breaking into Wayne Manor in Batman Begins?) knew about Bruce Wayne's secret identity, then why wouldn't one of the new leaders of the league of shadows know this too?

"Your punishment must be more severe". It's obvious that lots of people in Gotham still believe in Batman; wouldn't telling them that someone they thought was just a billionaire wastrel playboy had actually been saving their lives as a heroic martyr be grounds for hope, wholly contrary to the psychological effects Bane is going for?

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.

He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.

He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.

I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?

quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.

Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.

He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.

I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?

quote:



I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?