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RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILERS!!,

 
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RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:13:13 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.


Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?


Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.




It does matter, because if there was only (say) 1/2 seconds left then you might have a point about a cheap trick ending. That wouldn't be true if technically there was a gap when Batman could have got out.


Batman is a master of disguise and escapes, so it's hardly a cheap trick that we weren't treated to a scene of him jumping out with a parachute on or something. None of his other sudden disappearances are explained!

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 391
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:13:30 PM   
jrewing1000


Posts: 486
Joined: 23/11/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!



For f**k's sake people. You can't say Batman survived the ending. You literally saw him flying the Bat over the coastline with seconds to spare. As someone else pointed out, even if he jumped at the last minute, after we cut away from him, he still would have died. (I can't even see how he flew 6 miles so quickly).

It HAS to be that Alfred imagined him, because that was referenced earlier. Ok so he fixed the autopilot. So what? Doesn't mean he used it.

Again - we SAW it. We saw him fly out. I'm fed up with Directors / writers putting in cheap twists, showing us one thing then changing it later. It's so phoney.

Why don't we just re-write Wayne's parents back into the film. they MAY have survived! Ok so we see them get shot, but they could have been taken away and revived. What about Rachel? Maybe she survived too. What about Dent? Is he ALSO alive? Hey - maybe Bane is still around too. And Neeson's character.

I'm amazed that people are ok with this. If it turns out that Batman is still alive, I'll probably lose all respect for Nolan as a writer.



The reference earlier has Alfred saying he THINKS he sees Bruce at the cafe and then, when the guy turns round, immediately realises its someone else. Are we to believe that the ending is Alfred , in contrast, hallucinating and seeing someone who isn't actually there? That's like one of those Garfield without Garfield strips.This isn't Inception, and Alfred having a mental breakdown doesn't sound like much of a happy ending to me



But that's exactly my point. What is more likely? Batman survives a nuclear bomb, or Alfred is imagining things again, JUST like he did earlier? (or maybe there's a third option - that Nolan screwed up the ending). There's nothing wrong with showing Alfred imagining things. It's kinda poetic.



It depends what you mean by ''survives a nuclear bomb" The implication is that Batman deliberately timed it so he'd be outwith the blast radius, not that he had some kind of Bat-Nuclear Proofing Spray on or something. Was it just me, or did the actual explosion itself not seem a bit less than one would expect from a 'traditional' nuclear bomb?


I'd say ending on an overt fantasy sequence is indeed problematic. This isn't Dallas



I'll say it again. WE DIDNT SEE BATMAN JUMP OUT. Can I be any more clear than this? So again, if the answer is that he did jump but we just didn't see it, then I'm sorry - that's a really cheap narrative trick to play.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 392
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:15:03 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000

!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!



For f**k's sake people. You can't say Batman survived the ending. You literally saw him flying the Bat over the coastline with seconds to spare. As someone else pointed out, even if he jumped at the last minute, after we cut away from him, he still would have died. (I can't even see how he flew 6 miles so quickly).

It HAS to be that Alfred imagined him, because that was referenced earlier. Ok so he fixed the autopilot. So what? Doesn't mean he used it.

Again - we SAW it. We saw him fly out. I'm fed up with Directors / writers putting in cheap twists, showing us one thing then changing it later. It's so phoney.

Why don't we just re-write Wayne's parents back into the film. they MAY have survived! Ok so we see them get shot, but they could have been taken away and revived. What about Rachel? Maybe she survived too. What about Dent? Is he ALSO alive? Hey - maybe Bane is still around too. And Neeson's character.

I'm amazed that people are ok with this. If it turns out that Batman is still alive, I'll probably lose all respect for Nolan as a writer.



The reference earlier has Alfred saying he THINKS he sees Bruce at the cafe and then, when the guy turns round, immediately realises its someone else. Are we to believe that the ending is Alfred , in contrast, hallucinating and seeing someone who isn't actually there? That's like one of those Garfield without Garfield strips.This isn't Inception, and Alfred having a mental breakdown doesn't sound like much of a happy ending to me



But that's exactly my point. What is more likely? Batman survives a nuclear bomb, or Alfred is imagining things again, JUST like he did earlier? (or maybe there's a third option - that Nolan screwed up the ending). There's nothing wrong with showing Alfred imagining things. It's kinda poetic.



It depends what you mean by ''survives a nuclear bomb" The implication is that Batman deliberately timed it so he'd be outwith the blast radius, not that he had some kind of Bat-Nuclear Proofing Spray on or something. Was it just me, or did the actual explosion itself not seem a bit less than one would expect from a 'traditional' nuclear bomb?


I'd say ending on an overt fantasy sequence is indeed problematic. This isn't Dallas



I'll say it again. WE DIDNT SEE BATMAN JUMP OUT. Can I be any more clear than this? So again, if the answer is that he did jump but we just didn't see it, then I'm sorry - that's a really cheap narrative trick to play.


Again: do we EVER see HOW Batman does his sudden escapes or does he just disappear?

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 393
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:15:14 PM   
jrewing1000


Posts: 486
Joined: 23/11/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.


Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?


Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.




It does matter, because if there was only (say) 1/2 seconds left then you might have a point about a cheap trick ending. That wouldn't be true if technically there was a gap when Batman could have got out.


Batman is a master of disguise and escapes, so it's hardly a cheap trick that we weren't treated to a scene of him jumping out with a parachute on or something. None of his other sudden disappearances are explained!



You are way too forgiving. There's nothing clever or sophisticated about hiding the truth from the audience. Nolan seems to rely on this far too much.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 394
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:18:06 PM   
jrewing1000


Posts: 486
Joined: 23/11/2005
I'm dialing out of this one, i've made my point. Right, where's my copy of Arkham City?...

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 395
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:20:56 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54674
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.


He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 396
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:24:41 PM   
danbo1138


Posts: 7861
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Always Outnumberd Never Outgunned!
Great film,and a fine way to finish off.Catwoman stole the show,amazing.



_____________________________

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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 397
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:25:16 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19053
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
If Nolan wanted to only suggest that Wayne survived he would have left the shot on Alfred smiling - something which is in contrast to how Alfred looked in the flashback.

But we get three sperate scenes all involving seperate characters and things which hint that Wayne survived.

Then we get Alfred seeing them, and we see them, and they don't disappear like Ra's etc.

Nolan is being literal here. So if you have an issue with it (I didn't really) then put down to the script.

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 21/7/2012 2:28:15 PM >


_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 398
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:27:18 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left.


Does anyone remember how many seconds are left in the last shot of Batman definitely in the cockpit?


Does it really matter? My issue is that we don't see Batman jump out. If he really did jump out, and Nolan decides not to show us. It's a CHEAP narrative trick.




It does matter, because if there was only (say) 1/2 seconds left then you might have a point about a cheap trick ending. That wouldn't be true if technically there was a gap when Batman could have got out.


Batman is a master of disguise and escapes, so it's hardly a cheap trick that we weren't treated to a scene of him jumping out with a parachute on or something. None of his other sudden disappearances are explained!



You are way too forgiving. There's nothing clever or sophisticated about hiding the truth from the audience. Nolan seems to rely on this far too much.



I'm hardly ruling your 'cheap trick' interpretation out as a matter of course, which is why I (genuinely) wondered how long was left on the bomb in the last shot of Batman in the cockpit. And what exactly am I being forgiven of? Is Batman - based on what we, the audience have already seen, capable of a daring escape that goes unseen? I'd argue 'yes'. Nolan is not necessarily playing unfair.

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 399
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:31:51 PM   
Rick_1138

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 10/12/2009
HERE BE SPOLIERS........






I think the issue about the batwing flying out to sea is covered by a bit of clever editing.

Batman is in the batwing towing the bomb, as it's heavy bale has to stay in the thing to get the batwing higher than the skyscraper, then clear the next one with weapons. After that the batwing flies in a straight line out to sea over the bridge with the school kids. At no point after seeing bale pulling the stick back to get the batwing up above the building, do we see him again. (I will double check this as I'm seeing it again tonight with friends). So having bale/batman get out n use the grapple to grab something isn't a big stretch of thought.

Also I doubt DC would allow Bruce to die, that simple tbh.

As for the bomb going off and batman surviving, as I say I think he gets out before leaving the last bit of Gotham and set batwing for straight n level, max throttle. Most military choppers can do over 200mph, even with weight making it do about say 175mph, that's still in the 3 odd mins there were left on bomb clock (again will look for this tonight) that gets you a distance of about 8-9 miles, it's a neutron bomb so less destructive than a hydrogen bomb, (more radiation that blast). So there was distance and time for batman to get out.

Thisus how I picked up the scene anyway, andtbh I prefer the idea Bruce is okay, hands over the bat ideal (as he said was what he wanted in BB, batman is a symbol not a man) and Salina gets her life wiped and they like each other, as hinted at in decades of comics and tv series, same with Talia, I thought it was great they used her, if a little less than they could.

Will see how my mates feel as some of them like a moan about things like happy endings lol.

But the good thing is, the film creates debate and discussion :-)

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 400
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:32:34 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.


He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.




Plus wouldn't the Alfred we see at the end of the film - broken, in tears, at Bruce's death - be more likely to have nightmares about Bruce instead of cheery, wish-fufilling dreams? If I was Alfred I'd just try and forget about Bruce, perhaps fantasise about Selina and Talia hooking up

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 401
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:32:38 PM   
boostergold

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 14/1/2006
There is one other thing you are all forgetting. As Bruce's will is read one of the things is that his mothers pearls are still missing. The cafe scene shows Selina wearing them. The last we saw of them was when Bruce removed them from Selina at the dance near the beginning of the film, where he states something along the lines of " they look really good on you, but I can't let you have them." Bruce Wayne is still alive for real and is with Selina Kyle thus finally heeding Alfreds advice.
The Bat Lucius is examining is clearly NOT Batmans because it blew up, and obviously left the auto-pilot fix on another one to let Fox know he survived, thus faking his own death. Bruce and Selina used the cleanslate software to no longer exist, and don't forget that blake has in his possesion a piece of paper with the co-ordinates to the location of the batcave. At some point in this film Bruce planned all this as contingency. Gotham believes Batman and Bruce to be dead and obviously not the same person. When Blake becomes Batman he has the same costume, weapons, tolls and vehicles that this Batman has always had. He can carry on and be immortal/supernatural AS A SYMBOL, as the criminals he meets will assume he is the Batman that has always been around.
The worst thing in the movie for me was the Robin shoehorn (it would have been better if the woman said "it says on your file your real name is Richard Grayson" or words to that effect), closely followed by Batman telling Gordon who he really is. I've always believed Gordon knew this(in the comics and films) but just never ever says a thing.

(in reply to jrewing1000)
Post #: 402
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 2:38:40 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: boostergold

There is one other thing you are all forgetting. As Bruce's will is read one of the things is that his mothers pearls are still missing. The cafe scene shows Selina wearing them. The last we saw of them was when Bruce removed them from Selina at the dance near the beginning of the film, where he states something along the lines of " they look really good on you, but I can't let you have them." Bruce Wayne is still alive for real and is with Selina Kyle thus finally heeding Alfreds advice.
The Bat Lucius is examining is clearly NOT Batmans because it blew up, and obviously left the auto-pilot fix on another one to let Fox know he survived, thus faking his own death. Bruce and Selina used the cleanslate software to no longer exist, and don't forget that blake has in his possesion a piece of paper with the co-ordinates to the location of the batcave. At some point in this film Bruce planned all this as contingency. Gotham believes Batman and Bruce to be dead and obviously not the same person. When Blake becomes Batman he has the same costume, weapons, tolls and vehicles that this Batman has always had. He can carry on and be immortal/supernatural AS A SYMBOL, as the criminals he meets will assume he is the Batman that has always been around.
The worst thing in the movie for me was the Robin shoehorn (it would have been better if the woman said "it says on your file your real name is Richard Grayson" or words to that effect), closely followed by Batman telling Gordon who he really is. I've always believed Gordon knew this(in the comics and films) but just never ever says a thing.



But if Batman knows or suspects Gordon knows his secret identity, is it not a nice gesture to give him confirmation of this, especially since it's the last time they'll see each other? And he does so while affirming *Gordon's* heroism (in comforting a bereaved child) - it's not like it's done in such a way that it seems jarring that Batman knows that Gordon knows that Batman knows that Gordon knows about Batman's secret identity.


(in reply to boostergold)
Post #: 403
Batman's Return of the Jedi - 21/7/2012 3:25:36 PM   
Barry Bethal

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/10/2008
At 2:45hrs, the movie zipped along for me, however, I think the original post by Rgirvan44 highlighting their issues with the film mirrored my feelings fairly precisely, the key things for me ...

I believe the Miranda Tate twist should have occurred far earlier (ala Batman Begins with Liam Neeson), if used at all due total under development of the character reducing the 'twist' impact. There was absolutely no point in Bruce having boffed her at all for what remains of relationship plot after.

Batman shouldn't have been retired in the start and should have been on the run from the police while still putting the odd shift in, to build the menace of Bane i.e. that he could knock 10 bails of the proverbial out of Batman in his prime and not having to make a reasonable effort to defeat Batman with a walking stick.

The rematch of which was a total let down and anti-climax.

I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!

I couldn't understand everything he said, I don't care what the fanboys say and poor form from Nolan for not taking on board the criticism and making it all audible.

The timeline of events and lack of differing perspective around the 'city under hostage' story was ill paced and should have occurred earlier for me to build as the back drop for plot threads throughout the film.

What did they spend $230M on?! To me this wasn't Ben Hur film-makking as they had made out in the pre-release info. I felt TDK had a greater sense of scale to be honest.

Moving cities was a mistake for me, I'm sure you could have dressed up Chicago as an island somehow. It was too jarring for me for the architecture and style of city to suddenly change to Manhattan.

WTF happened to Selina's BFF?! She just disappeared! Would have been a better plot point if she was killed during the revolution which spurred her into changing her ways and her perspective on good and bad.

Why bring up Robin?! That almost ruined the movie for me! While Blake was one of the best things in the film, I have to say, from a brutal point of view, if they'd not bothered with him and given his lines to Gordon it might have allowed other story aspects to develop further.

The thing that now really jars with me, and I now need a repeat viewing to clarify ... I couldn't believe people were assuming Bruce was still alive, for me, Alfred imagined him there as part of his fantasy and the fact the auto-pilot had been fixed was a nod to Bruce wanting to die and maintain the symbol for the people of Gotham .... until .... someone mentioned the bat signal mysteriously getting fixed and I immediately thought 'fuck'.... this has now got me worried that Nolan bottled it and really has jumped the shark trying to out do BB and TDK. It would make sense as well as Alfred was devastated at 'letting him down' and Bruce wanting to let him know everything was good.

This movie gets 3-stars for me at the mo. I have to say when I saw BB it was a 5* movie and still is (lean mean film-making for me), TDK was a 3* on first viewing due to my issues with plot contrivances (Gordon dying but not really, employee knowing Batman's identity padding out the runtime, the whole sonar thing), however on repeat viewing it's a 4.5* for me. Only another viewing will let me assess the movie with criticisms out of my system, however, I suspect it'll struggle to scrape much past a 4* (it won't at all if Bruce didn't die).

As an aside .... when writing a script don't the key actors and independent people get into a room with the script writer and try to tear the story to pieces to eradicate gaping plot holes? If not they should start. They seem to be getting worse - and I'm not aiming that solely at this film.

(in reply to danbo1138)
Post #: 404
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 3:25:40 PM   
boostergold

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 14/1/2006
I never said that Batman knows or suspects that Gordon knows who he really is, simply that Gordon himself knows or at least deep down suspects at any rate. He is a detective and the police commisioner, really how would he not know? He just doesn't have to say it to anyone or out loud (as we see in his two answers to Blake in the film). The second time he knows for sure too as Batman practically tells him. Its as though Gordon prefers Batman to be real inividual and seperate from Bruce Wayne. In this respect the film in places turned into a Burton or Schumacher Batman movie with all and sundry of the main cast knowing Bruce is Bats.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 405
RE: Batman's Return of the Jedi - 21/7/2012 3:34:05 PM   
parsonage84


Posts: 3199
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: bristol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal

At 2:45hrs, the movie zipped along for me, however, I think the original post by Rgirvan44 highlighting their issues with the film mirrored my feelings fairly precisely, the key things for me ...

I believe the Miranda Tate twist should have occurred far earlier (ala Batman Begins with Liam Neeson), if used at all due total under development of the character reducing the 'twist' impact. There was absolutely no point in Bruce having boffed her at all for what remains of relationship plot after.

Batman shouldn't have been retired in the start and should have been on the run from the police while still putting the odd shift in, to build the menace of Bane i.e. that he could knock 10 bails of the proverbial out of Batman in his prime and not having to make a reasonable effort to defeat Batman with a walking stick.

The rematch of which was a total let down and anti-climax.

I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!


I couldn't understand everything he said, I don't care what the fanboys say and poor form from Nolan for not taking on board the criticism and making it all audible.

The timeline of events and lack of differing perspective around the 'city under hostage' story was ill paced and should have occurred earlier for me to build as the back drop for plot threads throughout the film.

What did they spend $230M on?! To me this wasn't Ben Hur film-makking as they had made out in the pre-release info. I felt TDK had a greater sense of scale to be honest.

Moving cities was a mistake for me, I'm sure you could have dressed up Chicago as an island somehow. It was too jarring for me for the architecture and style of city to suddenly change to Manhattan.

WTF happened to Selina's BFF?! She just disappeared! Would have been a better plot point if she was killed during the revolution which spurred her into changing her ways and her perspective on good and bad.

Why bring up Robin?! That almost ruined the movie for me! While Blake was one of the best things in the film, I have to say, from a brutal point of view, if they'd not bothered with him and given his lines to Gordon it might have allowed other story aspects to develop further.

The thing that now really jars with me, and I now need a repeat viewing to clarify ... I couldn't believe people were assuming Bruce was still alive, for me, Alfred imagined him there as part of his fantasy and the fact the auto-pilot had been fixed was a nod to Bruce wanting to die and maintain the symbol for the people of Gotham .... until .... someone mentioned the bat signal mysteriously getting fixed and I immediately thought 'fuck'.... this has now got me worried that Nolan bottled it and really has jumped the shark trying to out do BB and TDK. It would make sense as well as Alfred was devastated at 'letting him down' and Bruce wanting to let him know everything was good.

This movie gets 3-stars for me at the mo. I have to say when I saw BB it was a 5* movie and still is (lean mean film-making for me), TDK was a 3* on first viewing due to my issues with plot contrivances (Gordon dying but not really, employee knowing Batman's identity padding out the runtime, the whole sonar thing), however on repeat viewing it's a 4.5* for me. Only another viewing will let me assess the movie with criticisms out of my system, however, I suspect it'll struggle to scrape much past a 4* (it won't at all if Bruce didn't die).

As an aside .... when writing a script don't the key actors and independent people get into a room with the script writer and try to tear the story to pieces to eradicate gaping plot holes? If not they should start. They seem to be getting worse - and I'm not aiming that solely at this film.


As both former students of the League of Shadows, and that Thalia is now leading the LoS, i just went with the basis it wouldnt of been to difficult to put together that Bruce Wayne one of there former students is Batman,

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Post #: 406
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 3:41:04 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: boostergold

I never said that Batman knows or suspects that Gordon knows who he really is, simply that Gordon himself knows or at least deep down suspects at any rate. He is a detective and the police commisioner, really how would he not know? He just doesn't have to say it to anyone or out loud (as we see in his two answers to Blake in the film). The second time he knows for sure too as Batman practically tells him. Its as though Gordon prefers Batman to be real inividual and seperate from Bruce Wayne. In this respect the film in places turned into a Burton or Schumacher Batman movie with all and sundry of the main cast knowing Bruce is Bats.



If you think that Gordon always knew Bruce was Bats, then the only new people knowing about Batman's identity in The Dark Knight Rises are Bane, Talia Selina and Blake. The first three are consistent with both the comics and in-movie logic (the League of Shadows know all about Bruce Wayne), and the last, basically a version of the Tim Drake Robin origin, worked for me (but YMMV of course)

(in reply to boostergold)
Post #: 407
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 3:43:05 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19053
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
Gordon clearly acts with surprise when he finds out.

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Post #: 408
RE: Batman's Return of the Jedi - 21/7/2012 3:45:22 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal



I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!

.


League of Shadows. If Ra's and all his footsoldiers (remember them breaking into Wayne Manor in Batman Begins?) knew about Bruce Wayne's secret identity, then why wouldn't one of the new leaders of the league of shadows know this too?

"Your punishment must be more severe". It's obvious that lots of people in Gotham still believe in Batman; wouldn't telling them that someone they thought was just a billionaire wastrel playboy had actually been saving their lives as a heroic martyr be grounds for hope, wholly contrary to the psychological effects Bane is going for?

(in reply to Barry Bethal)
Post #: 409
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 3:50:53 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Gordon clearly acts with surprise when he finds out.



I don't necessarily think Gordon knows, Bruce's speech works in either case. Batman doesn't say "I'm Bruce Wayne", he makes a reference to a grieving child. You think in all his years on the force Bruce Wayne is the only bereaved child Gordon's came across and tried to comfort? You could argue that by putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with Bruce Wayne at least shows he could have had suspicions (he is, as you say, a detetctive)

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 410
RE: Batman's Return of the Jedi - 21/7/2012 3:52:11 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: parsonage84


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barry Bethal

At 2:45hrs, the movie zipped along for me, however, I think the original post by Rgirvan44 highlighting their issues with the film mirrored my feelings fairly precisely, the key things for me ...

I believe the Miranda Tate twist should have occurred far earlier (ala Batman Begins with Liam Neeson), if used at all due total under development of the character reducing the 'twist' impact. There was absolutely no point in Bruce having boffed her at all for what remains of relationship plot after.

Batman shouldn't have been retired in the start and should have been on the run from the police while still putting the odd shift in, to build the menace of Bane i.e. that he could knock 10 bails of the proverbial out of Batman in his prime and not having to make a reasonable effort to defeat Batman with a walking stick.

The rematch of which was a total let down and anti-climax.

I also may have missed this, but how did Bane figure out that Bruce was Batman? and why didn't he tell the people of Gotham?!


I couldn't understand everything he said, I don't care what the fanboys say and poor form from Nolan for not taking on board the criticism and making it all audible.

The timeline of events and lack of differing perspective around the 'city under hostage' story was ill paced and should have occurred earlier for me to build as the back drop for plot threads throughout the film.

What did they spend $230M on?! To me this wasn't Ben Hur film-makking as they had made out in the pre-release info. I felt TDK had a greater sense of scale to be honest.

Moving cities was a mistake for me, I'm sure you could have dressed up Chicago as an island somehow. It was too jarring for me for the architecture and style of city to suddenly change to Manhattan.

WTF happened to Selina's BFF?! She just disappeared! Would have been a better plot point if she was killed during the revolution which spurred her into changing her ways and her perspective on good and bad.

Why bring up Robin?! That almost ruined the movie for me! While Blake was one of the best things in the film, I have to say, from a brutal point of view, if they'd not bothered with him and given his lines to Gordon it might have allowed other story aspects to develop further.

The thing that now really jars with me, and I now need a repeat viewing to clarify ... I couldn't believe people were assuming Bruce was still alive, for me, Alfred imagined him there as part of his fantasy and the fact the auto-pilot had been fixed was a nod to Bruce wanting to die and maintain the symbol for the people of Gotham .... until .... someone mentioned the bat signal mysteriously getting fixed and I immediately thought 'fuck'.... this has now got me worried that Nolan bottled it and really has jumped the shark trying to out do BB and TDK. It would make sense as well as Alfred was devastated at 'letting him down' and Bruce wanting to let him know everything was good.

This movie gets 3-stars for me at the mo. I have to say when I saw BB it was a 5* movie and still is (lean mean film-making for me), TDK was a 3* on first viewing due to my issues with plot contrivances (Gordon dying but not really, employee knowing Batman's identity padding out the runtime, the whole sonar thing), however on repeat viewing it's a 4.5* for me. Only another viewing will let me assess the movie with criticisms out of my system, however, I suspect it'll struggle to scrape much past a 4* (it won't at all if Bruce didn't die).

As an aside .... when writing a script don't the key actors and independent people get into a room with the script writer and try to tear the story to pieces to eradicate gaping plot holes? If not they should start. They seem to be getting worse - and I'm not aiming that solely at this film.


As both former students of the League of Shadows, and that Thalia is now leading the LoS, i just went with the basis it wouldnt of been to difficult to put together that Bruce Wayne one of there former students is Batman,



Yeah, it would have been jarring if Bane hadn't known. The disposable LoS ninjas who broke into Wayne Manor in BB knew about Bruce Wayne being Batman but the supposed de facto leader of loS does not?

(in reply to parsonage84)
Post #: 411
RE: Batman's Return of the Jedi - 21/7/2012 3:52:13 PM   
Barry Bethal

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/10/2008
quote:


ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

League of Shadows. If Ra's and all his footsoldiers (remember them breaking into Wayne Manor in Batman Begins?) knew about Bruce Wayne's secret identity, then why wouldn't one of the new leaders of the league of shadows know this too?

"Your punishment must be more severe". It's obvious that lots of people in Gotham still believe in Batman; wouldn't telling them that someone they thought was just a billionaire wastrel playboy had actually been saving their lives as a heroic martyr be grounds for hope, wholly contrary to the psychological effects Bane is going for?



Fair enough!

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 412
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 3:53:46 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12192
Joined: 30/9/2005
I need to see this again, but after the initial euphoria of my first Imax experience ("wow the picture's huge, but no way is it going to fill the whole screen all the way to the top and the bottom- OH MY GOD IT DOES!!!") has started to wear off, the more I think about it the more disappointing it feels.

What's going through my head a lot at the moment is something that Nolan apparently said after TDK, which was along the lines of "I used up all my ideas on this film," and I'm beginning to think that was the case. Not that this film doesn't have ideas, just that perhaps the enthusiasm to make the best possible film wasn't there this time, as a result of Nolan and co thinking "What else can we do?" rather than "wouldn't it be awesome if Batman did this?"

It's still one of the better Blockbuster trilogy finales that I've seen, but it doesn't escape the dreaded 3rd film curse.

(in reply to boostergold)
Post #: 413
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 4:03:44 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12192
Joined: 30/9/2005
Changing the thread title back...

(in reply to Hood_Man)
Post #: 414
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 4:48:28 PM   
Ghidorah

 

Posts: 2939
Joined: 6/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.


He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.



I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 415
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 4:56:07 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.


He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.



I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?


quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI



They have a funeral for Bruce Wayne and most people think he died! I wouldn't call that silly misdirection. You could argue that Batman's "death" was necessary too (the people now love Batman - c.f. the statue - there's a new Batsignal, and a figure who apparently died and came back will strike even more fear into criminals)

(in reply to Ghidorah)
Post #: 416
RE: The Dark Knight Rises - 21/7/2012 5:03:48 PM   
kenada_woo


Posts: 1668
Joined: 30/9/2005
I'll throw a spanner in...

Isn't it a neutron bomb that goes off? Neutron bombs don't destroy structures, they have a small blast radius but high radiation and designed to leave buildings etc intact.

The blast wouldn't have destroyed the plane. Any structure or vehicle within 1000yards would be intact.

Additionally, neutron bombs aren't effective nowdays as tanks etc have increased armour to withstand high radiation. Which is why no country stock piles these types of weapons.

If the bat was built for a military purpose, its plausible its built to withstand a neutron or nuclear explosion.

*awaits backlash*

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Hatcher. Marked For Death


(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 417
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 5:06:23 PM   
kenada_woo


Posts: 1668
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrewing1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not sure - given each part was clearly told he was still around, I was genuinely surprised it was even questioned and assumed it was mainly people who'd missed the other bits at the end of the film.

I'd say again - Kyle was there. It was a place Alfred said he went to every year, so easy to set up.



Nobody told anyone he was clearly around. It's all suggested. That's why I think there is no way he could have survived. He may have wanted people to think he was still around. But i'll say it again. we SAW him fly out with the bomb. Seriously, what else is there to say? He was in the cockpit with seconds left. We DIDN"T see him jump out. He was flying the damn thing out to sea. Then boom. That's what we saw. That's what happened.

Again - if it turns out that Batman survives, Nolan has played a ridiculous cheap trick on the audience.


He did. I think this is the problem that a lot of people would like to ignore by playing the Alfred dreamworld card.

If it was just Alfred - you get the imagination into play. Everything else? Cheap Trick rides again.



I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?



He won't be the first or last to that.

Arthur Conan Doyle did it with Sherlock Holmes (and consequently the TV show and film).

There's the also added movie trick...if you don't see a body, you can't say they're truely dead

_____________________________

http://dereksdontrunfilms.blogspot.co.uk/

"You bailed out a Jamaican street named Monkey the other day, I want him. This other piece of shit, Screwface, I want him. I know you're a scumbag and a puke, I don't mind that, but give me what I need and I'll leave here a nice guy. If you don't, I'm gonna fuck you up. "

Hatcher. Marked For Death


(in reply to Ghidorah)
Post #: 418
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 5:09:22 PM   
Barry Bethal

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/10/2008
quote:



I watched the ending again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01_JOZIzHI

There is no doubt Bruce Wayne survives and it just Nolan silly attempts throughout the movie giving us the impression he would die. Why?



After watching the youtube clip there is definitely no doubt - he is alive and well. Strangely, watching it again, I am happy that he lived despite my initial misgivings (hence why I need a 2nd viewing) .... Bruce also has a sick sense of humour as he has effectively condemned Blake to receiving an ass kicking, good bum raping and death (in any order) on his first outing as a vigilante by neglecting to leave him an instruction manual specifying rule 1 - enlist in the League of Shadows for a year.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 419
RE: Stop over analysing it, for the love of god! SPOILE... - 21/7/2012 5:21:13 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
BANE http://youtu.be/ywjX6AF6oVc?t=3m23s

(in reply to Barry Bethal)
Post #: 420
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