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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 5:25:34 PM

Shifty Bench

Posts: 14578
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Established religions make as little sense to me as Scientology, however at least they have the benefit of having existed for as long as civilisation

Most common religions aren't actually that old though. Modern Christianity was established around 300 AD, while Islam was established around 600 AD. If humans have been around for around 6000 years most of what we consider to be religions have only been around for around a quarter of that.

I guess it's all relative, but I would consider that to be old. Very few other existing institutions can claim to be as old, for example. The influence as a result is significant, even in a fairly secular country such as the UK. Perhaps in a millennia or two Scientology will be the same, but for now it simply isn't.

Yeah, this is the point I am trying to make. Because of the length of time other religions have been around makes me understand why people believe in them more than I understand why people believe we are really superbeings from another planet. Especially considering that was created by, and I'll say it again because I like saying it- a science fiction writer

. The fact that Scientology was invented in the 50s makes it look like more of a cult than the others. I can understand the belief system of say, Christianity more even if I don't agree with it.

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ORIGINAL: matty_b
You have a nice face, Shifty. A face I would have a cup of tea with.

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Post #: 31

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 5:33:17 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Established religions make as little sense to me as Scientology, however at least they have the benefit of having existed for as long as civilisation

Most common religions aren't actually that old though. Modern Christianity was established around 300 AD, while Islam was established around 600 AD. If humans have been around for around 6000 years most of what we consider to be religions have only been around for around a quarter of that.

I guess it's all relative, but I would consider that to be old. Very few other existing institutions can claim to be as old, for example. The influence as a result is significant, even in a fairly secular country such as the UK. Perhaps in a millennia or two Scientology will be the same, but for now it simply isn't.

Yeah, this is the point I am trying to make. Because of the length of time other religions have been around makes me understand why people believe in them more than I understand why people believe we are really superbeings from another planet. Especially considering that was created by, and I'll say it again because I like saying it- a science fiction writer . The fact that Scientology was invented in the 50s makes it look like more of a cult than the others. I can understand the belief system of say, Christianity more even if I don't agree with it.

To me the content of the teachings is almost an aside here - the only thing that legitimises other religions and hinders scientology is the length of time the latter has been around. In 1500 years time the landscape could well be very different.

And lets not forget that there are literally thousands of other Churches based within the likes of Christianity that make Scientology look ancient. The Phelps circus for example, was only formed in 1955, while one of my closest friends is a member of a church that only formed 20 years ago.

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Post #: 32

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 5:49:01 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

To me the content of the teachings is almost an aside here - the only thing that legitimises other religions and hinders scientology is the length of time the latter has been around. In 1500 years time the landscape could well be very different.

And lets not forget that there are literally thousands of other Churches based within the likes of Christianity that make Scientology look ancient. The Phelps circus for example, was only formed in 1955, while one of my closest friends is a member of a church that only formed 20 years ago.

And interestingly you often hear them referred to as cults as well, certainly in the case of WBC. However even they probably have more legitimacy than Scientology in the eyes of the average person, since they are at least based loosely (as in, on the lunatic fringe) of an established religion i.e. the belief in the Judeo-Christian God.

As we've both said the religious landscape may be different in the distant future, however for many of us living here and now that's a moot point.

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Post #: 33

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 6:13:48 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
As I said on twitter yesterday, all religions look weird to outsiders, Scientology is no different to Catholicism or Christianity as far as I'm concerned.

It's a wee bit weirder. Just a bit.

Why is it though? There's no difference

There's a HUGE HUGE difference.

I'm a hardcore atheist so to me, in pure religion terms, scientology is admittedly not much more batshit crazy than a Jewish superhero/magician, multiple limbed gods or a god who thinks it's okay for young boys to be raped by old men.

There are, however, several documented problems with scientology that make it a cult, not a religion, and a whole lot more dangerous:

It is, at its heart, basically a pyramid cash scheme where those higher at the top of the pyramid are encouraged, by money, fame and power, to "keep it all in the family". The tagline at the top level is, basically, "more begats more".

People leaving the church are not only forbidden from ever going back to it, they are also forbidden to see any friends or family they have remaining within the church. In that sense, it is much like hardline mormonism and Plymouth Brethren.

Scientology goes one step further again - if any ex member speaks ill of the church, then their life is basically ruined. There are dozens of verified accounts from ex members (just Google it). There was a BBC documentary with Mark Lawson (go on YouTube for the now infamous moment where the normally cool Lawson completely loses it with a high up scientologist) a few years ago which featured a busy and recognisable actor (his name escapes me and he was not an A-lister, but he was a familiar face in loads of films and TV shows from the 80s and 90s). When he started moving up in the church, he started seeing things which he did not agree with and which made him leave. He took what evidence he had (including an animated film which use to be shown to new members and also video footage of higher echelon meetings) and started telling the media what the church was really about. Within days his work phone stopped ringing, rumours were spread about him in the locality (if memory serves, I believe one of them was that he was an HIV positive homosexual drug addict who purposely shared his needles with other people), his family ties were cut and he was followed everywhere by church members (as Lawson was throughout the making of the documentary and for a long time after). Shortly after, the guy was literally living rough on the streets. This is all documented and not anecdotal.

It can also be proven that for curious "visitors" and newcomers, the church massively tone down their hard sell, and it is not until you are properly a member where the rope tightens. Some youths in scientology strong areas in the States go to scientology camps, which, whilst entirely voluntary, are otherwise not too far removed from youth detention centres (again, this is all documented). They are forced to break ties with any friends and family who are against scientology and they are always restricted as to how long they are allowed to leave the camps for the duration of their "stay".

Some friends and ex colleagues of Hubbard have also, within the last few years, gone on record to say that Hubbard freely admitted he was creating this new "religion" (which he based on ideas he had for some of his very early stories) to make money and nothing else.

The only things scientology doesn't promote are murder, incest and raping minors. Otherwise it is pure cult and we should be very worried that it is one of the world's fastest growing religions.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 30/6/2012 6:16:21 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 6:36:49 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

There's a HUGE HUGE difference.

I'm a hardcore atheist so to me, in pure religion terms, scientology is admittedly not much more batshit crazy than a Jewish superhero/magician, multiple limbed gods or a god who thinks it's okay for young boys to be raped by old men.

There are, however, several documented problems with scientology that make it a cult, not a religion, and a whole lot more dangerous:

It is, at its heart, basically a pyramid cash scheme where those higher at the top of the pyramid are encouraged, by money, fame and power, to "keep it all in the family". The tagline at the top level is, basically, "more begats more".

People leaving the church are not only forbidden from ever going back to it, they are also forbidden to see any friends or family they have remaining within the church. In that sense, it is much like hardline mormonism and Plymouth Brethren.

Scientology goes one step further again - if any ex member speaks ill of the church, then their life is basically ruined. There are dozens of verified accounts from ex members (just Google it). There was a BBC documentary with Mark Lawson (go on YouTube for the now infamous moment where the normally cool Lawson completely loses it with a high up scientologist) a few years ago which featured a busy and recognisable actor (his name escapes me and he was not an A-lister, but he was a familiar face in loads of films and TV shows from the 80s and 90s). When he started moving up in the church, he started seeing things which he did not agree with and which made him leave. He took what evidence he had (including an animated film which use to be shown to new members and also video footage of higher echelon meetings) and started telling the media what the church was really about. Within days his work phone stopped ringing, rumours were spread about him in the locality (if memory serves, I believe one of them was that he was an HIV positive homosexual drug addict who purposely shared his needles with other people), his family ties were cut and he was followed everywhere by church members (as Lawson was throughout the making of the documentary and for a long time after). Shortly after, the guy was literally living rough on the streets. This is all documented and not anecdotal.

It can also be proven that for curious "visitors" and newcomers, the church massively tone down their hard sell, and it is not until you are properly a member where the rope tightens. Some youths in scientology strong areas in the States go to scientology camps, which, whilst entirely voluntary, are otherwise not too far removed from youth detention centres (again, this is all documented). They are forced to break ties with any friends and family who are against scientology and they are always restricted as to how long they are allowed to leave the camps for the duration of their "stay".

Some friends and ex colleagues of Hubbard have also, within the last few years, gone on record to say that Hubbard freely admitted he was creating this new "religion" (which he based on ideas he had for some of his very early stories) to make money and nothing else.

But all of those things can be attributed to other religions too tho! (not to mention this is largely speculation on your part - I'd love to see hardened evidence). Whatever horrible stories can be dredged up about Scientology, their equal can be found in any religion. In terms of shit thats happened within scientology and outside of it I think we're overdoing it by suggesting there's "a HUGE, HUGE difference".

Like I said to Spaldron, the whole cult/religion thing to me is essentially a case of semantics, as I'm viewing the lot from a removed perspective. There are masses of "documented problems with all religions that could be said to make them a cult, it's all about perspective and approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

The only things scientology doesn't promote are murder, incest and raping minors. Otherwise it is pure cult and we should be very worried that it is one of the world's fastest growing religions.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. There's long been debate as to what the fastest growing religion is, and Scientology doesn't particularly figure at all.

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 30/6/2012 7:19:57 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 7:24:32 PM

BigKovacs

Posts: 3144
Joined: 6/4/2006
From: Textile Street.

I want to argue that its a case of semantics becouse it's one version of 'made up shit' versus another version of 'made up shit', but the problem is that Catholicism has more of an effect on our daily lives wether we practice it or not so it is more important than Scientology, although not for the right reasons. Remeber, wars have been fought and countless people have been killed over Catholicism whereas Scientology only breaks up familys and provides comfort to thick celebrities.

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Post #: 36

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 7:25:46 PM

Dpp1978

Posts: 1012
Joined: 2/4/2006

I read a lot about Scientology a few years ago. It came up in a few cases I had to study for the Equity module of my law degree. I have seldom read more scornful language in a judgment. And the more I read on the subject the less about it I liked.

One reason for looking into it deeper was there used to be a Dianetics centre in my home town who would offer personality tests on the street to those passing by. A friend of mine took one (thankfully he thought it was bullshit) but it made me think about what might have been.

I suppose the easiest starting point is the oft quoted statement made by L Ron Hubbard that "if you want to make a lot of money start a religion." That raises questions as to the motives of the religion (although it has never been formally recognised as such by the UK) from the start.

Then you have the core of the belief system: Dianetics, which has been likened to a miracle cure for all mental (and some physical) ills and a path to super powers by some and mental abuse and indoctrination by others. The auditing process itself is almost identical (albeit with sci-fi bells and whistles) to therapies used on shell shock victims during and after World War II.

These techniques were actually effective as part of a rehabilitation programme, but by themselves and administered by those who are not medically qualified can be dangerous.

It is no co-incidence that Scientology is notoriously and violently anti psychiatry. The medical authorities scorned his theories in the early days, and even prosecuted him for practising medicine without a licence.

This is even before we consider the Xenu stuff and the disembodied alien souls who are the source of all human miseries. The South Park dramatisation was stating almost verbatim what is in the actual CoS literature. There was no need to embellish it. A friend of mine had a disk containing all the secret literature that is supposedly unsafe for anyone who hasn't undergone years of rigorous (and expensive) mental conditioning to read. Apparently it is on the internet if anyone cares to look (I don't). I read most of it and it is not dangerous, it is just slightly silly and simplistic. Compared with the Bible, which contains verifiable historical information among the parables and stories, it is laughable. Little more than the semi coherent ramblings of a second rate hack: which is, after all, what he was (getting paid a penny a word by the pulp magazines) before he found religion.

What is less funny are the stories from those whose lives have been ruined by the "Church". I'm not going into what I've read here, but badir's views pretty well mirror my own. The BBC documentary gives a good idea of what it is like to be on the receiving end of their "fair game" protocols.

While all of the major religions have had periods where their practises were far less worthy than one might expect, (apart from a fervent minority of extremists and/or sick individuals whose acts are ones of self gratification rather than religious devotion) they tend to be relatively benign, at least in the Western World. Scientology seems to be institutionally built up to exploit the flock for the benefit of the shepherds and their chosen few. That isn't to say all Scientologists are bad people: that would be as crass a generalisation as saying all Catholic priests are paedophiles. Most I dare say are perfectly good decent folk. There are also those who follow the "faith" but are not affiliated with the mainstream branch (and who are made to suffer because of it).

What I will state is that after looking into the organisation in reasonable depth I find it distasteful at best and downright dangerous at worst. Any organisation whose primary response to criticism is propagate ad hominem abuse on the critic coupled with physical, mental and litigative attacks must be looked at with a certain level of caution.

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Post #: 37

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 8:11:11 PM

paul.mccluskey

Posts: 4945
Joined: 15/4/2007
From: Port Glasgow, Scotland, UK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978

The BBC documentary gives a good idea of what it is like to be on the receiving end of their "fair game" protocols.

The CoS actively deny the Disconnection policy. Speaking of which, Nicole Kidman is a victim of this as she been cut off from her adopted kids wih Cruise, who are also Scientologists. Apparently, after the divorce, she was labelled a suppressant, and contact was severed.

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Post #: 38

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 8:26:08 PM

elab49

Posts: 51635
Joined: 1/10/2005

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-attitudes-and-practices/what-is-disconnection.html

Not any more. There was too much evidence for them to keep on lying about this.

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Post #: 39

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:15:52 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
But all of those things can be attributed to other religions too tho!

True.

quote:

not to mention this is largely speculation on your part

Completely untrue.

quote:

I'd love to see hardened evidence

Start here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies. Yeah, I know it's Wiki, but that's a mere starting point and the tip of the iceberg. Scientology's legal wranglings over the years in the UK (most of which are officially documented and available online) are also good starting material and most of it has undisputable proof and evidence to back it up.

quote:

Whatever horrible stories can be dredged up about Scientology, their equal can be found in any religion.

Very true - this is one of the many reasons that I am a hardcore atheist (but don't assume that, just because I'm an atheist, I don't know anything about religion - like films, I don't think [the royal] you should criticise anything unless you've digested it and understood it).

quote:

In terms of shit thats happened within scientology and outside of it I think we're overdoing it by suggesting there's "a HUGE, HUGE difference".

Maybe, maybe not. Those who have, provably, been ex-communicated from their lives and livelihood might disagree with you. Having known ex Plymouth Brethren members who have had those family ties broken in the same way, I can assure you it's quite a big deal and just a little bit different than a christian, catholic or jew leaving their respective religions (cos in those cases, to loosely paraphrase Dara O'Briain, you're just a bad christian, catholic or jew). And the Brethren don't even do the whole fucking up of the rest of your life if you bad mouth them like scientology has (provably) done and continues to do.

quote:

Like I said to Spaldron, the whole cult/religion thing to me is essentially a case of semantics, as I'm viewing the lot from a removed perspective. There are masses of "documented problems with all religions that could be said to make them a cult, it's all about perspective and approach.

I both agree and disagree with this. I think ALL organised religion is bad news in one way or another and I cannot fathom why or how so many people are unable to follow their own self-made "just be a good person" guidelines and instead invest their faith and belief in writings and teachings which have been handed down over hundreds or thousands of years (with the more established ones) and translated and re-translated and are all about rules set down by mystical beings in the sky. But that's just me.

quote:

I don't think you have anything to worry about. There's long been debate as to what the fastest growing religion is, and Scientology doesn't particularly figure at all.

I guess if you looked at the right info, one could argue that Jedi is the fastest growing religion. And, if you look at it in terms of sheer number of members, then yeah - scientology is nowhere (in fact I think outside of the US, on paper at least, it does have less members than Jedi!). However, it is nevertheless spreading and there are now over ten HQ churches in the UK, compared to just one not so long ago. But I'm not worried cos I know neither I, nor any single person I am close to (I won't say any single person I know), will ever fall for the bullshit they are peddling.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 30/6/2012 9:18:20 PM >

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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:29:11 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-attitudes-and-practices/what-is-disconnection.html

Not any more. There was too much evidence for them to keep on lying about this.

Interesting reading.

They're sugaring it up a tad, though.

The following IS anecdotal and should perhaps be taken with a bucket of salt but, for the craic...

A mate of mine is a freelance journo and, on his last work stay in the States (which went from about '97 until he was shipped back home with a load of other Brits shortly after 9/11), he interviewed several peeps in the movie business for the likes of Premiere (US edition). Anyway, one reasonably famous actor (B-list, but he will not reveal who as this was all strictly off the record) was an ex scientologist who was spreading the real word about scientology "under the counter". One of the more interesting things he (apparently) said (I have no reason to disbelieve my mate, but obviously neither of us can say how true the following is cos we have no idea beyond what he was told in confidence) was that, whilst scientology was (and is) a very philanthropic enterprise, it still siphons off millions of dollars that should be destined for charities and worthy causes around the world (at least this was the case at the time of the interview in the late 90s). This is as distinct from the church's own shenanigans with trying to get itself charitable status in the UK, of course. But I've Googled that several times over the years but have come up empty.

But, again, most other organised religions are guilty of this too at one point or another...

< Message edited by great_badir -- 30/6/2012 9:30:02 PM >

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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:30:07 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16721
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

There is a lot of very dodgy stuff Scientology has been proven to be involved in such as infiltration of government, attempts to take over a country, significant levels of slander and libel which is designed to destroy opponents. I knew someone in University who was in a bot of a bad place and took one of the courses and ended up being taken for ten grand and reaching an almost suicidal state due to the debts they caused him to run up. There is a thread on here somewhere about the cult/business.

That said maybe Tom Cruise is just a bit of a dick behind closed doors and Scientology plays no part in the decision?

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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:33:19 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
That said maybe Tom Cruise is just a bit of a dick behind closed doors and Scientology plays no part in the decision?

I can TOTALLY believe that.

I'm sure Holmes' attempts at sole custody will be a good indication...

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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:38:30 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
That said maybe Tom Cruise is just a bit of a dick behind closed doors and Scientology plays no part in the decision?

I get the impression he's a bit of a dick full stop, and not just for all the sofa-jumping and scientology madness. For some reason he always seems to be trying to be so sincere in his interviews and his marathon autograph love-in sessions on the red carpet that he just comes across as thoroughly insincere to me. A fake, like Mom in Futurama. That probably says a lot more about me than him though.

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Post #: 44

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:41:14 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
The South Park dramatisation was stating almost verbatim what is in the actual CoS literature. There was no need to embellish it.

Yep - the little message that kept running across the bottom of the screen that said something along the lines of "this is what they are actually taught - we are not making any of this up". Similar to the mormonism episode.

Nice summing up, though Dpp. As per.

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RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 9:42:44 PM

great_badir

Posts: 4178
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan
That probably says a lot more about me than him though.

I disagree.

But I do think it probably says a lot more about him than scientology.

Get me - from harsh critic to biggest defender in three posts!

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Post #: 46

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:03:40 PM

UTB

Posts: 8983
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Established religions make as little sense to me as Scientology, however at least they have the benefit of having existed for as long as civilization and are therefore deeply engrained on a cultural (and sometimes legal) basis. Scientology is younger than my stepdad, was made up by a pulp science-fiction writer to make money and has aliens in it. The religions may be bollocks, but scientology is obvious bollocks. Plus it does it all with a rather nasty streak and has none of the charitable side of religions.

I'm confused. Is Scientology bollocks because aliens are involved? The only reason I ask is because it seems far more likely that E.T will turn up before Jebus.

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Post #: 47

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:07:54 PM

elab49

Posts: 51635
Joined: 1/10/2005

I'd go more with Badir's earlier post as the easy answer - it's bollocks because it's a pyramid scheme. A cash cow. Created as a cynical money-making enterprise. By a bad SF writer (and yes, I've read the entire Mission Earth because I was young and I'd read anything

).

At least with religion you get a general feeling some of the higher ups actually believe the whole god thing.

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Post #: 48

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:12:15 PM

UTB

Posts: 8983
Joined: 30/9/2005

Gotcha

S'all equally bollocks though, really.

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Post #: 49

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:15:25 PM

elab49

Posts: 51635
Joined: 1/10/2005

I couldn't get into the thread there. I thought they'd spotted us

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Post #: 50

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:18:31 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

That would be SO EXCITING

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Post #: 51

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:26:26 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

YOU PEOPLE BURN ALONE I WANT TO LIVE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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Post #: 52

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:34:44 PM

Shifty Bench

Posts: 14578
Joined: 30/9/2005

At times like this, I have a simple philosophy that I live by and it has got me out of some tricky situations.....

IT WAS ALL MONSTERCAT'S FAULT!!!

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quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b
You have a nice face, Shifty. A face I would have a cup of tea with.

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Post #: 53

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:47:43 PM

Rhubarb

Posts: 24398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

The thing I like about Scientology, is that it is openly corrupt. Like the Catholic Church just guilt you into donating, CofE is a bit like *cough* where is your contribution to the Harvest Festival, Scientology is so brazenly trying to take you for everything you have and barely putting up the pretense of an excuse.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.

(in reply to Shifty Bench)

Post #: 54

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 30/6/2012 10:50:22 PM

Shifty Bench

Posts: 14578
Joined: 30/9/2005

Their honesty about being dishonest is refreshing.

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Extended Edition Podcast- click

quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b
You have a nice face, Shifty. A face I would have a cup of tea with.

(in reply to Rhubarb)

Post #: 55

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 1/7/2012 1:59:14 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

Speaking as a former member of The Church of Scientology and also having held the post of "Staff" in the short while I was there. I can definitely understand how people brand the religion a "Cult".

If you leave the Church, you are excommunicated from friends and loved ones you may also be leaving behind. They literally wash their hands of you. Also, when I would go to classes, afterwards they would make you turn to a framed picture on the wall of L. Ron and clap. Don't know why but I'm certainly glad I left. I was an impressionable 15/ 16 year old, carrying quite a high-up role, which I got from being scrupulously questioned over if I had ever taken drugs, had any life-threatening conditions etc. Taking drugs, to them, is baaad! And something that apparently "stays in your system for life" (or at least a good long while) and what they see as being extremely detrimental for any potential leaders in their office.

So yeah, from someone who has a true experience in this field, I think I can say that "Cult" isn't too far off the mark.

< Message edited by NinjaShortbread212 -- 1/7/2012 2:03:55 AM >

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Art

(in reply to Shifty Bench)

Post #: 56

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 1/7/2012 2:13:24 AM

horribleives

Posts: 4183
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Speaking as a former member of The Church of Scientology and also having held the post of "Staff" in the short while I was there. I can definitely understand how people brand the religion a "Cult".

If you leave the Church, you are excommunicated from friends and loved ones you may also be leaving behind. They literally wash their hands of you. Also, when I would go to classes, afterwards they would make you turn to a framed picture on the wall of L. Ron and clap. Don't know why but I'm certainly glad I left. I was an impressionable 15/ 16 year old, carrying quite a high-up role, which I got from being scrupulously questioned over if I had ever taken drugs, had any life-threatening conditions etc. Taking drugs, to them, is baaad! And something that apparently "stays in your system for life" (or at least a good long while) and what they see as being extremely detrimental for any potential leaders in their office.

So yeah, from someone who has a true experience in this field, I think I can say that "Cult" isn't too far off the mark.

Did you ever experience first hand their views on homosexuality? I know they're quite open about their dislike of, say, drugs and psychoanalysis, but I've always wanted to know what they really think about gay folk and whether the rumours about 're-programming' homosexuals (not that they'd be the first religion to propose such a silly and dangerous idea) actually have some sinister basis in truth or are nothing more than an urban myth.

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www.hollywoodunbound.co.uk - some nonsense about alien film directors and musclebound man-children.

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Post #: 57

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 1/7/2012 2:18:22 AM

Spaldron

Posts: 10487
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Speaking as a former member of The Church of Scientology and also having held the post of "Staff" in the short while I was there. I can definitely understand how people brand the religion a "Cult".

If you leave the Church, you are excommunicated from friends and loved ones you may also be leaving behind. They literally wash their hands of you. Also, when I would go to classes, afterwards they would make you turn to a framed picture on the wall of L. Ron and clap. Don't know why but I'm certainly glad I left. I was an impressionable 15/ 16 year old, carrying quite a high-up role, which I got from being scrupulously questioned over if I had ever taken drugs, had any life-threatening conditions etc. Taking drugs, to them, is baaad! And something that apparently "stays in your system for life" (or at least a good long while) and what they see as being extremely detrimental for any potential leaders in their office.

So yeah, from someone who has a true experience in this field, I think I can say that "Cult" isn't too far off the mark.

Did you ever experience first hand their views on homosexuality? I know they're quite open about their dislike of, say, drugs and psychoanalysis, but I've always wanted to know what they really think about gay folk and whether the rumours about 're-programming' homosexuals (not that they'd be the first religion to propose such a silly and dangerous idea) actually have some sinister basis in truth or are nothing more than an urban myth.

To add to this didn't you mention how they stalked you for months after you left?

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And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

(in reply to horribleives)

Post #: 58

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 1/7/2012 2:19:43 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Speaking as a former member of The Church of Scientology and also having held the post of "Staff" in the short while I was there. I can definitely understand how people brand the religion a "Cult".

If you leave the Church, you are excommunicated from friends and loved ones you may also be leaving behind. They literally wash their hands of you. Also, when I would go to classes, afterwards they would make you turn to a framed picture on the wall of L. Ron and clap. Don't know why but I'm certainly glad I left. I was an impressionable 15/ 16 year old, carrying quite a high-up role, which I got from being scrupulously questioned over if I had ever taken drugs, had any life-threatening conditions etc. Taking drugs, to them, is baaad! And something that apparently "stays in your system for life" (or at least a good long while) and what they see as being extremely detrimental for any potential leaders in their office.

So yeah, from someone who has a true experience in this field, I think I can say that "Cult" isn't too far off the mark.

Did you ever experience first hand their views on homosexuality? I know they're quite open about their dislike of, say, drugs and psychoanalysis, but I've always wanted to know what they really think about gay folk and whether the rumours about 're-programming' homosexuals (not that they'd be the first religion to propose such a silly and dangerous idea) actually have some sinister basis in truth or are nothing more than an urban myth.

I did actually!

I had an Aussie friend who's father was a Scientologist and he was over in Scotland. It was only just before I was getting my act together to leave the darn place that we all found out he was homosexual. He didn't seem the type! But yes, they were'nt happy as far as I can remember and wanted to send hi down to East Grinstead (where the main Church is) to get him started on a "programme".

I had the lucky chance to visit the place and it's massive! They have guards that patrol at night and everything. They want tio get beginners on a "Cleansing Course" to start of with and then get them on their way on "The Bridge", which you work your way along, paying your hard earned cash, to get enlightenment and find out the "secret" of Scientology. Looking back, I kinda wish I had done it... out of curiosity you understand! A certain episode of South Park comes to mind here.

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Art

(in reply to horribleives)

Post #: 59

RE: Katie Holmes comes to her senses... - 1/7/2012 2:22:39 AM

NinjaShortbread212

Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Speaking as a former member of The Church of Scientology and also having held the post of "Staff" in the short while I was there. I can definitely understand how people brand the religion a "Cult".

If you leave the Church, you are excommunicated from friends and loved ones you may also be leaving behind. They literally wash their hands of you. Also, when I would go to classes, afterwards they would make you turn to a framed picture on the wall of L. Ron and clap. Don't know why but I'm certainly glad I left. I was an impressionable 15/ 16 year old, carrying quite a high-up role, which I got from being scrupulously questioned over if I had ever taken drugs, had any life-threatening conditions etc. Taking drugs, to them, is baaad! And something that apparently "stays in your system for life" (or at least a good long while) and what they see as being extremely detrimental for any potential leaders in their office.

So yeah, from someone who has a true experience in this field, I think I can say that "Cult" isn't too far off the mark.

Did you ever experience first hand their views on homosexuality? I know they're quite open about their dislike of, say, drugs and psychoanalysis, but I've always wanted to know what they really think about gay folk and whether the rumours about 're-programming' homosexuals (not that they'd be the first religion to propose such a silly and dangerous idea) actually have some sinister basis in truth or are nothing more than an urban myth.

To add to this didn't you mention how they stalked you for months after you left?

Yes. I remember (as I was still under 16), telling my mum I didn't want to go back and her being a strict Irish Catholic, none of my being in Scientology went down well at home at all!

The guy who was training me up, came to the house (on more than one occasion if I recall) and wanted to see me. Uninvited too! My mum had told him I was having a bath but he didn't want to leave. My mum then threatened with the police and newspapers, to which he swiftly got his coat and left....

< Message edited by NinjaShortbread212 -- 1/7/2012 2:23:32 AM >

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Art

(in reply to Spaldron)

Post #: 60