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RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash

 
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RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 7:43:31 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I don't really blame Carr, if I were in his position I do think I'd do the same.

If there's any benefit from the story breaking it's that loopholes will be closed and Cameron will be shown up for the hypocrite he is.


See, a lot of people keep saying that... call me old fashioned but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do the same. I'm a firm believer in fairness to make society work. If I earn more I should be prepared to pay more, simple as that for me.

We're very lucky to live in such a secure country where even our poor would be considered rich by the standards of other countries. We can only have that through honesty and fairness. Rich, poor, somewhere in the middle... pay what you owe.

(in reply to Rinc)
Post #: 61
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 7:56:31 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I don't really blame Carr, if I were in his position I do think I'd do the same.

If there's any benefit from the story breaking it's that loopholes will be closed and Cameron will be shown up for the hypocrite he is.


See, a lot of people keep saying that... call me old fashioned but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do the same. I'm a firm believer in fairness to make society work. If I earn more I should be prepared to pay more, simple as that for me.

We're very lucky to live in such a secure country where even our poor would be considered rich by the standards of other countries. We can only have that through honesty and fairness. Rich, poor, somewhere in the middle... pay what you owe.


Yeah, I actually don't think I'd do it either. What you said is spot on, Jon

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Post #: 62
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 8:23:33 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12829
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I don't really blame Carr, if I were in his position I do think I'd do the same.

If there's any benefit from the story breaking it's that loopholes will be closed and Cameron will be shown up for the hypocrite he is.


See, a lot of people keep saying that... call me old fashioned but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do the same. I'm a firm believer in fairness to make society work. If I earn more I should be prepared to pay more, simple as that for me.

We're very lucky to live in such a secure country where even our poor would be considered rich by the standards of other countries. We can only have that through honesty and fairness. Rich, poor, somewhere in the middle... pay what you owe.


I like to think I wouldn't either. But I know myself too much to be able to say that and I think I'd take the loophole.

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Post #: 63
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 8:28:34 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3815
Joined: 30/9/2005
If collecting of taxes needs to be fair then surely spending of them has to be; how many people out there who complain of loopholes would be the first to take advantage of beenfits, credits etc in the belief that what amount they are taking is only small?

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Post #: 64
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 8:40:02 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12173
Joined: 30/9/2005
I guess it depends how my accountant asks me. If I'm asked "Would you like to pay less tax? There's a scheme was can use and it's perfectly legal," I'd say yes without question. Saying that, I'm more likely to find myself in a position where different levels of tax could mean the difference between me living comfortably, or just about keeping my head above water.

I can't really judge Jimmy Carr's decision because I couldn't possibly imagine the existence he lives in.

Not that I have an accountant or know how this is done

(in reply to Rinc)
Post #: 65
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 9:48:01 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
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Obviously, we have no way of testing this but I suspect that a good proportion of the "I wouldn't do that" crowd could find a way of reducing the cognitive dissonance generated by suddenly becoming rich.

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Post #: 66
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 10:28:09 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
Perhaps it helps that I'm not rich then, I don't know?

But I also come from a public service family and realise the importance of public money to society and how it works. I'd just feel dishonest avoiding it knowing I should be contributing. I can understand people wanting to protect their money, but outright avoiding it through quasi-legal schemes? No, I wouldn't do that. Everything we take for granted in our society - the NHS, the police, the fire-brigade, even street lighting - would be forfeit if everyone took that ground. So even saying 'I'd probably do that' bothers me in that regard.

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Post #: 67
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 10:34:23 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5064
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From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

Obviously, we have no way of testing this but I suspect that a good proportion of the "I wouldn't do that" crowd could find a way of reducing the cognitive dissonance generated by suddenly becoming rich.


If I suddenly had Carr's money I'd happily pay whatever tax they wanted and I'd still be better off than I ever have been so it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
Though I haven't the slightest clue what cognitive dissonance is. Does it cause tinnitus?

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Post #: 68
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 10:46:29 PM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6286
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
Anybody watching 8 Out of 10 Cats? Bloody hell, they're getting the boot in!

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Post #: 69
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 10:50:09 PM   
Skiba


Posts: 4402
Joined: 24/11/2005
From: London

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

Anybody watching 8 Out of 10 Cats? Bloody hell, they're getting the boot in!

I think he was a bit too humble...he should've criticised Cameron for having the nerve to comment on him

Good show though!

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Post #: 70
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 12:54:10 AM   
Dirk Miggler


Posts: 1106
Joined: 14/1/2009
I'm all for everybody paying their share but maybe if it wasn't 50% you would get a lot less trying to avoid it. Let's be honest here, regardless of the amount earned and what they can afford, paying 50% of any of hard or well earned income would be a bit of a kick in the nuts !

< Message edited by Dirk Miggler -- 23/6/2012 12:59:21 AM >

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Post #: 71
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 9:25:57 AM   
jonson


Posts: 9081
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

I'm all for everybody paying their share but maybe if it wasn't 50% you would get a lot less trying to avoid it. Let's be honest here, regardless of the amount earned and what they can afford, paying 50% of any of hard or well earned income would be a bit of a kick in the nuts !


Exactly, not that I'm justifying what Carr did, I do think he was wrong and an equal (to everyone else) percentage of his tax should be paid, an almost complete avoidance seems wrong to me.
However I do think everyone should pay the same (percentage) across the board, irrespective of how much they earn.
The hypocrisy of the PM and the papers though should be the big story here, Jimmy Carr is one of thousands doing this and as a result it's been turned into a joke.

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Post #: 72
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 10:28:01 AM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
The overriding thing is that the system should be changed because otherwise people are going to abuse it - these schemes would be used at a 40% tax rate as well

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Post #: 73
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 10:28:42 AM   
Skiba


Posts: 4402
Joined: 24/11/2005
From: London
Strong suggestions that Sir Chris Hoy has done something similar, so will be interested to see the outrage towards him...multi-medal olympian and Knight of the Realm level of outrage = none

It's the elite, and the super-rich's avoidance that should be causing the outrage anyway, and things like this should mobilise people...they marched for student fees but next to nothing about NHS reforms, so I don't expect it.

Celebrities are just an easy target for these rags who can't be arsed to investigate the real scandal here with massive companies, retail magnates etc tax issues...Amazon, Vodafone, Green should be the front page stories and not Jimmy fucking Carr

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Post #: 74
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 10:42:09 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8058
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
Exactly, not that I'm justifying what Carr did, I do think he was wrong and an equal (to everyone else) percentage of his tax should be paid, an almost complete avoidance seems wrong to me.
However I do think everyone should pay the same (percentage) across the board, irrespective of how much they earn.
The hypocrisy of the PM and the papers though should be the big story here, Jimmy Carr is one of thousands doing this and as a result it's been turned into a joke.


While it does seem fair for everyone to pay the same, I do think there is an argument for those better off to supplement the state at a slightly higher level.
Personally I don't have a problem with the additional rate of tax if it was 45%, but 50% was just too much, there has to be a balance and its such an easy line to say tax the (so called) rich.

I agree with the new tax levels brought in 20% basic is about right, especially with the level at which you start paying being increased.
40% while a huge jump up for middle earning individuals is a lot for someone earning just over the threshold, on balance it seems fair enough, and as stated above I personally don't have a problem with 45% however I think you need to see this level of tax having a real effect on the services provided. I have a huge problem with paying a hell of a lot of my earning in tax, only for me to seemingly receive extremely average public services, which indirectly leads me to find private alternatives. This moves me further away from a good perception of where the money is going, and public services because I'm paying, admittedly by choice, twice.
That may be a perception problem but I think it is part of why the multi-millionaires (cos lets be honest your average businessman earning 150K+ isn't in Jimmy Cars avoidance scheme) try to avoid tax, they think their money is being wasted.
I know its an easy fit to pain them all as evil, power hungry, greedy corporate monsters, but I honestly believe they have the same social conscience as the rest of society. Some good, and some bad, it certainly doesn't decrease in proportion against income.

Ideally I'd like to see schemes whereby if you pay the additional rate of tax you can reduce your contributions by investing in local schemes. Yes it needs to be carefully looked at to ensure no additional loopholes are created, but if you could keep your tax rate at 40% by investing in a local youth club and using your professional skills to make them self sustaining (after your investment) surely everyone wins? I suppose it would be similar to charitable contributions but that has just been abused, and this would be something where you would see the benefits. Obviously it would depend on you total earnings what you would have to donate to get the 40% bracket but I think there are a lot of individuals who earn over the bracket who would look to donate to the community if it kept 100K of earnings at the additional rate to 40%. It would establish a link between tax and or contributions, and a real social benefit that is tangible to the contributor and I think that could be an important link for the higher earners in society.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 23/6/2012 10:58:33 AM >


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Post #: 75
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 11:32:30 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

I'm all for everybody paying their share but maybe if it wasn't 50% you would get a lot less trying to avoid it. Let's be honest here, regardless of the amount earned and what they can afford, paying 50% of any of hard or well earned income would be a bit of a kick in the nuts !


It's worth bearing in mind that if you are earning 150k a year, you won't pay 75k tax on a 50% bracket. Even after tax and NI contributions you'll still receive over 90k net (and that's assuming you do everything above-board). That's as much as I've earned gross over the last 5 years. Obviously you'll have various outgoings consistent with such a salary, but I will not accept it's any kind of struggle to live on that kind of money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob
I personally don't have a problem with 45% however I think you need to see this level of tax having a real effect on the services provided. I have a huge problem with paying a hell of a lot of my earning in tax, only for me to seemingly receive extremely average public services, which indirectly leads me to find private alternatives. This moves me further away from a good perception of where the money is going, and public services because I'm paying, admittedly by choice, twice.


This is a fair point, and I think one that many people feel regardless of how much tax they pay. Good governance is important, but unfortunately because this is Britain we rarely receive it. I'm with Shifty and Jon in that I would always pay my taxes at the proper rate as I feel it is a civic duty to do so, and in fact I've argued several times in the past that I would be happy to pay more tax if it meant more/better public services (I am aware I am in the minority when it comes to this, mind). Services in this country can and should be better (we're still one of the richest countries in the world after all), but it's unlikely to happen when the tax income is consistently much lower than it should be and we have a government that would rather have private enterprise take over in many of these areas.





< Message edited by superdan -- 23/6/2012 11:33:17 AM >

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Post #: 76
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 11:42:30 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8058
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

I'm all for everybody paying their share but maybe if it wasn't 50% you would get a lot less trying to avoid it. Let's be honest here, regardless of the amount earned and what they can afford, paying 50% of any of hard or well earned income would be a bit of a kick in the nuts !


It's worth bearing in mind that if you are earning 150k a year, you won't pay 75k tax on a 50% bracket. Even after tax and NI contributions you'll still receive over 90k net (and that's assuming you do everything above-board). That's as much as I've earned gross over the last 5 years. Obviously you'll have various outgoings consistent with such a salary, but I will not accept it's any kind of struggle to live on that kind of money.


I don't think the argument is that its a struggle, its just that outgoings also increase due your standard of living too.

Being taxed 50% on your earning is just a load of bollocks, and was always just going to have people finding the way round it.
It's an unfair rate of tax, and restrictive to the growth of the economy, even Labour agree on that and won't commit to the fact that they'd re-establish it.


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Post #: 77
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 12:27:31 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
There are definitely problems with our tax system.

BUT, the fact is we live a very good life in this country. The NHS, pensions and other public services cost a LOT of money. I think part of the problem here is people take that for granted. The money has to come from somewhere.

Is 50% on those who can afford to pay that much unfair? Probably. But reducing that to 1% isn't just immoral; it's disgusting as far as I'm concerned. Even if it is the same amount as Joe public pays, as Jim Davidson kindly pointed out for us. If you can afford to pay more then you should.

But then there are problems at both ends of the spectrum so don't think I'm just criticising the rich. I also think having children when you can't afford them and relying on other's money isn't moral at all in that sense. If anything we should be encouraging financial reward to a reduction in population growth so we can all carry on enjoying the good life we do.

Go forth and preach common sense, Comrades!

< Message edited by jon5000 -- 23/6/2012 12:29:39 PM >

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Post #: 78
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 1:19:26 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
But then there are problems at both ends of the spectrum so don't think I'm just criticising the rich. I also think having children when you can't afford them and relying on other's money isn't moral at all in that sense.


No children for you because you're poor? Doesn't seem particularly moral to me. If we're going to discriminate against a certain section of society having kids, I think you shouldn't be allowed kids if you're a cunt. Because it means you're just going to have some cunt kids.

quote:


If anything we should be encouraging financial reward to a reduction in population growth so we can all carry on enjoying the good life we do.


That brings it's own problems though (at least in the relative short term) as Japan, the US and Europe are finding out. The baby boomers are all retiring now and the population is 'top-heavy', with a lot of old people and not enough young people to support them in an economic sense. It puts a huge strain on a nations finances, and takes decades to sort itself out.


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Post #: 79
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 1:24:15 PM   
horribleives

 

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Well at least we can all agree that it's babies and owld cunts who cause all the bother.

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Post #: 80
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 1:38:27 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8058
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

Well at least we can all agree that it's babies and owld cunts who cause all the bother.


The middle set of wankers, having the babies, and not looking after their own owld cunts are more to blame than either.

On having children, I think its pretty immoral to have children you can't afford and expect the state to pay for them.
Very few people couldn't afford one child, however it isn't an infringement on someone's human rights to say you shouldn't be having children that you can't support, its responsible parenting.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 23/6/2012 1:41:20 PM >


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Post #: 81
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 1:45:36 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
But then there are problems at both ends of the spectrum so don't think I'm just criticising the rich. I also think having children when you can't afford them and relying on other's money isn't moral at all in that sense.


No children for you because you're poor? Doesn't seem particularly moral to me. If we're going to discriminate against a certain section of society having kids, I think you shouldn't be allowed kids if you're a cunt. Because it means you're just going to have some cunt kids.



Well, no not exactly that. Rather, if a person can't afford them at this stage in their life maybe they should think twice about when to have them?

I'm 25. I don't have a lot of money. I've decided, morally, not to have children until later in life when I can afford to give them a more comfortable upbringing and not rely on the state so much. I think that's a moral decision a lot of people in this country don't make because it's too much of a financial incentive to have children the way the system is set up. We should be encouraging smaller families.

It's nothing to with whether you're a cunt or not. Some cunts are very successful I might add!


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Post #: 82
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 1:55:47 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

On having children, I think its pretty immoral to have children you can't afford and expect the state to pay for them.
Very few people couldn't afford one child, however it isn't an infringement on someone's human rights to say you shouldn't be having children that you can't support, its responsible parenting.


I would suggest that money shouldn't come into it. Someone can be poor but still a responsible and good parent, and raise a child to become a success in their own right. Equally, you can be rich and be a shit parent raising spoilt wastrel kids who do fuck all apart from join anarchist movements because they've got nowt better to do. If the state needs to help people with little to raise their kids, I don't have a problem with that, but then I would say that because by yours and Jon's standards I shouldn't be here. My mum wouldn't have been able to raise me or my brother and sister without state help (she only had a part-time job in a school kitchen), and none of us have burdened the nation since. I've worked my whole adult life and never taken a penny from the state outside of the small grant I received at uni (the grand sum of 900), my brother is training to be a carpenter and locksmith and my sister is a Ph.D. I like to think (though others may disagree!) that as far as the state is concerned we were a worthwhile investment.

I guess my point is that while you'll always have some layabouts who habitually depend on the state for their whole lives, for the most part it is simply a small measure of help for those with lesser means, and usually ends up being returned many times over in the form of valuable tax-paying citizens further down the line.

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Post #: 83
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 2:09:33 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
Christ, I'm a third child. I shouldn't be here either by my own reckoning!

I appreciate your points, but there's no question society would be better for all with a reduction in population growth. Whether that be through more responsible parenting, tighter immigration or less old people I don't have the answers!

I just think deciding not to have children when you can't afford them is a moral decision a lot of people don't make correctly in this country. A lot of people I know who I grew up with in fact. I'm not saying you or those who've benefitted from the system shouldn't exist... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change things to make a higher standard of living for future generations.

Population growth is becoming insane. I'm very liberal on most things, but when it comes to population growth and sustainability I find myself being an absolute realist.

Jimmy Carr would probably agree!

(in reply to superdan)
Post #: 84
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 2:52:15 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8058
Joined: 30/9/2005
If you decide to continue to have children which you cannot support, I think there is something quite selfish and irresponsible about your actions.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 23/6/2012 2:53:26 PM >


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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 85
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 2:56:35 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000
I just think deciding not to have children when you can't afford them is a moral decision a lot of people don't make correctly in this country. A lot of people I know who I grew up with in fact. I'm not saying you or those who've benefitted from the system shouldn't exist... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change things to make a higher standard of living for future generations.

Population growth is becoming insane. I'm very liberal on most things, but when it comes to population growth and sustainability I find myself being an absolute realist.

Jimmy Carr would probably agree!


That's fair enough, but population management and the problems associated with it are a separate issue really. Otherwise, why stop at poor people? Should criminals be allowed to have children? People with disabilities? Or are those ok as long as you have enough money at the time of conception (since an individual's circumstances can obviously change for the worse in the course of a child's life)? Deciding whether or not to have kids is of course a moral decision - every decision a parent makes about kids is a moral decision. I just think people sometimes get too wrapped up in the immediate financial cost to the state and use it as an excuse to bash poor folks.

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Post #: 86
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 3:03:03 PM   
MonsterCat


Posts: 7934
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From: St. Albans, Hertfordshire
At work yesterday I glanced at The Sun's front page Jimmy Carr story. The way they're going on about it you'd think he shot a kid and drowned a puppy.

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't do the same if I was in position. Fair play to the guy for taking the merciless ribbing on the chin during last night's 8 Out of 10 Cats.


< Message edited by MonsterCat -- 23/6/2012 3:06:31 PM >


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Post #: 87
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 3:07:35 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
Yeah I appreciate that is a danger. It's very difficult to talk about population management without having those connotations I agree.

But it's certainly not about executing those who are born; whether they grow up to be criminals, have disabilities or are poor is irrelevant. I mean that's something else entirely. I just think population management can be achieved through better financial encouragement to have less children, as opposed to the current system. And also through better education. Why not teach the dangers of population growth in school through basic economics? Surely that's as important to society as a subjects like 'child development' and sex education.

Teenagers need to know how much having kids can fuck your life up as well as the relatively simple act of conceiving and having a child, basically I jest... but you get my point.

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Post #: 88
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 3:25:47 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

At work yesterday I glanced at The Sun's front page Jimmy Carr story. The way they're going on about it you'd think he shot a kid and drowned a puppy.

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't do the same if I was in position. Fair play to the guy for taking the merciless ribbing on the chin during last night's 8 Out of 10 Cats.



Yeah, it's been over the top. By all accounts he's a decent bloke. He apologised, said he won't do it anymore and took his licks on TV so I reckon he should be left alone. Especially when there's the far more interesting route regarding Cameron's staggering hypocrisy to follow up

(in reply to MonsterCat)
Post #: 89
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 23/6/2012 3:31:15 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
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On the subject of children, a guy I used to work with used to, "you fuck for 'em, you pay for 'em."
I'm not sure I agree but it made me chuckle.

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(in reply to jon5000)
Post #: 90
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