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RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash

 
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RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 3:51:51 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
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quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Taking benefits you don't need but are entitled to is just as morally wrong. Taking child allowance to pay for after school clubs or investing for your childs University place, how is that any better.



It's not morally wrong when it was (and still should be) a universal benefit.



Why isn't it, if you don't really need the money?
Child benefits weren't setup to be a benefit for having children.

You're taking money you don't need from the state, which could have be redistributed to those who do.
Extreme maybe, but that is why the whole moral argument is open to hypocrisy.


< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 21/6/2012 3:53:33 PM >


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Post #: 31
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 3:58:47 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Depends which bits you read, I fully expect you just to take in the bits you want to.
Did you miss the line about avoiding tax is wrong?


I didn't but that's not the point I was making

quote:

It was all related to the first line, who's to make moral judgements on this?

Noted

quote:

I'm saying the rich are making contributions to the public purse via Income Tax/NI, VAT, paying staff, corporation tax etc.

Well that's an assumption, you cant honestly claim that every m/billionaire is paying staff/corporation etc. I'm sure plenty of them have most of their operations off-shore.

quote:

Whereas those claiming benefits they shouldn't be entitled to will be on paying less into the public pot.

That's right, bollocks to the single mothers and the disabled because they don't employ butlers so should'nt be excused.

quote:

Are you saying this is wildly inaccurate?

No just skewed in favour of the wealthy.



< Message edited by Spaldron -- 21/6/2012 4:00:39 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:00:42 PM   
superdan


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Seems to me comparing child benefit with tax evasion isn't really apt, since by it's very nature a universal benefit is as equal as it's possible to get. There's nothing equal about tax evasion, because only businesses and relatively affluent people can do it. Avoiding paying the tax that, as a citizen who reaps the rewards of having been raised in this country, you are expected to is morally reprehensible. And no, I wouldn't do the same. If you won't pay the tax you're supposed to, you can't moan about the state of the country, because you are part of the problem.

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Post #: 33
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:08:00 PM   
SWOTBM


Posts: 1998
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

A lot of rich people pay their taxes though and don't involve themselves in these dodges - why is that? Because morally they know it's wrong even if the system allows it.


As I said above where do the morals start/finish here?
Buying drink or fags abroad to skip the duty?
Taking benefits you don't need but are entitled to is just as morally wrong. Taking child allowance to pay for after school clubs or investing for your childs University place, how is that any better.

Its also worth pointing out that the so called rich, will also be making huge contributions to the economy via VAT, paying staff, or corporation tax etc. Whereas the benefits cheats at the lower end, who you are claiming are demonised (more than bankers?) contribute much less on this level.


Avoiding paying tax is obviously wrong, but for people to make moral judgements on some and not others is just as hypercritical.
If we are purely talking morals, any action which involves you actively looking to avoid a contribution is the same. Amount and if you can afford it don't come into it.


Like how you're going after the benefit claimants and defending the rich at the same time.



Depends which bits you read, I fully expect you just to take in the bits you want to.
Did you miss the line about avoiding tax is wrong?

It was all related to the first line, who's to make moral judgements on this?

I'm saying the rich are making contributions to the public purse via Income Tax/NI, VAT, paying staff, corporation tax etc.
Whereas those claiming benefits they shouldn't be entitled to will be on paying less into the public pot.
Are you saying this is wildly inaccurate?



But if they should not be entitled to the benefits surely that must be because they earn enough money; which would mean that they pay enough into the public pot? If they are not entitled to the benefits and they are claiming it anyway then it is illegal.

Also, the people who are on benefits are likely to be paying a significantly larger proportion of their income on VAT and other consumption taxes than the ''rich'' do.

Agree with you about the booze cruise argument though, why is that not also morally reprehensible? (serious questio )

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Post #: 34
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:09:19 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005
Its an assumption that people who earn more generally pay more into the system via VAT/NI or paying for staff, or corporation tax contributions?

Right


quote:


That's right, bollocks to the single mothers and the disabled because they don't employ butlers so should'nt be excused.


Why who said that? In fact who at any point said single mothers and the disabled shouldn't claim benefits?


quote:


There's nothing equal about tax evasion, because only businesses and relatively affluent people can do it

So only the rich bought fags and booze from abroad to avoid duty?
Only the rich claim VAT back on items that weren't really used for the business?
Only the rich get paid cash so they don't need to put it through the books?

Only the rich avoid tax? Sorry but that's a crock. Its just more socially acceptable to avoid tax at one end of the earnings spectrum rather than the other.

quote:


But if they should not be entitled to the benefits surely that must be because they earn enough money; which would mean that they pay enough into the public pot? If they are not entitled to the benefits and they are claiming it anyway then it is illegal.

I think you are missing my point. Until last year I was still getting child allowence, which I've gotten since my daughter was born.
I didn't need the money inorder to bring her up, but I took it because I was entitled.
If you have over 25K coming into your household (maybe London exception) you don't need help from the state. Maybe it comes in handy, and means you can have something you might not otherwise be able to afford, but you don't need it.
Therefore how moral is it to take it, when there are people who don't get enough money and they really do need it to live?
Its a theorical argument as to what is morally correct, is it morally right because you are legally entitled? Jimmy Carr was legally entitled to move his money offshore.

quote:


Also, the people who are on benefits are likely to be paying a significantly larger proportion of their income on VAT and other consumption taxes than the ''rich'' do.

Proportion, probably, but its the total amount which ultimately matters, not the proportion.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 21/6/2012 4:18:45 PM >


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Post #: 35
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:15:53 PM   
tommyjarvis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Are you saying this is wildly inaccurate?

No just skewed in favour of the wealthy.



To be fair, everyone else's comments in here are skewed in favour of the poor, so Bob's providing a decent balancing act.

Oh, and evasion is illegal. Avoidance isn't.

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Post #: 36
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:19:13 PM   
clownfoot


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Joined: 26/9/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Are you saying this is wildly inaccurate?

No just skewed in favour of the wealthy.



To be fair, everyone else's comments in here are skewed in favour of the poor, so Bob's providing a decent balancing act.



Except on child benefit, where Bob's view is skewed in favour of the poor. Some balancing act...

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Post #: 37
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:28:46 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8255
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob
quote:


There's nothing equal about tax evasion, because only businesses and relatively affluent people can do it

So only the rich bought fags and booze from abroad to avoid duty?
Only the rich claim VAT back on items that weren't really used for the business?
Only the rich get paid cash so they don't need to put it through the books?


Only the rich avoid tax? Sorry but that's a crock. Its just more socially acceptable to avoid tax at one end of the earnings spectrum rather than the other.



Getting paid cash to avoid putting it through the books is tax dodging and punishable by law, so not really comparable. As for the other points, I don't know many minimum wage earners or unemployed people who can afford to go on a jolly to Europe in order to stock up on booze and cigs, nor do I know many who can claim back VAT on business expenses (valid or otherwise). The system, as I said, is stacked to help businesses and relatively affluent people. Besides, I've not even argued that any of those examples are even acceptable, yet you've used them as a defence of a multimillionaire who has been paying tax at minimum wage level.

I agree that Carr is small fry in the grand scheme of things, and that he's a convenient scapegoat given his celebrity. But if we accept that this kind of behaviour (and there can be no doubt that just because it's not illegal doesn't necessarily make it 'right') then nothing will ever change. I'm not suggesting the rich should be gouged out of existence, but I at least expect them to pay the fucking tax they're supposed to. They've just had a tax break that was supposed to encourage them to do so after all

< Message edited by superdan -- 21/6/2012 4:29:21 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:28:53 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Except on child benefit, where Bob's view is skewed in favour of the poor. Some balancing act...


It could be simply the fact that because I don't get it anymore, therefore I don't think anyone should.
I just can't find a decent argument for the low income families. But I'll get one, god damn it.


< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 21/6/2012 4:29:25 PM >


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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 39
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 4:35:48 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Getting paid cash to avoid putting it through the books is tax dodging and punishable by law, so not really comparable. As for the other points, I don't know many minimum wage earners or unemployed people who can afford to go on a jolly to Europe in order to stock up on booze and cigs, nor do I know many who can claim back VAT on business expenses (valid or otherwise). The system, as I said, is stacked to help businesses and relatively affluent people. Besides, I've not even argued that any of those examples are even acceptable, yet you've used them as a defence of a multimillionaire who has been paying tax at minimum wage level.


Sorry I wasn't talking minimum wage, anyone who does any of the above is actively avoiding tax, so is on wobbly ground when moaning about anyone else doing the same.

quote:


I agree that Carr is small fry in the grand scheme of things, and that he's a convenient scapegoat given his celebrity. But if we accept that this kind of behaviour (and there can be no doubt that just because it's not illegal doesn't necessarily make it 'right') then nothing will ever change. I'm not suggesting the rich should be gouged out of existence, but I at least expect them to pay the fucking tax they're supposed to. They've just had a tax break that was supposed to encourage them to do so after all

All I'm saying if you are even handed, there are a lot of people who avoid tax at whatever level they are at.
I don't see a great deal of difference morally, which is the stick being used. Of course we all know the moral angle is only being used because nothing illegal has actually happened.


_____________________________

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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 40
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 5:19:35 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5064
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I'm sure everyone on this thread would pay less tax if they could because I'd hazard a guess none of us are rich. Jimmy Carr on the other hand, can afford to pay the amount of tax his wealth demands but chooses not to out of old fashioned greed. For a comic who claims to be left-leaning and prides himself on the skewering of politicians that's quite staggeringly hypocritical (in much the same way as that caring sharing bloke out of U2 spends his days off lecturing governments on poverty while stashing away millions or urging us normal folk to fly less then chartering a private jet to fly his favourite fucking hat halfway around the world). That's why I find it morally wrong and he, by extension, a cunt. Though he was on telly beaming and curtsying while he shook hands with the Queen a week or so ago so it's hardly surprising.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 21/6/2012 5:20:36 PM >


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Post #: 41
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 5:36:07 PM   
kumar


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The most confusing thing about this is I cant decide if David Cameron is acting like a modern day Robin Hood or Sheriff of Nottingham...

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Post #: 42
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 6:10:54 PM   
jon5000


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Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA

quote:

ORIGINAL: kumar


The most confusing thing about this is I cant decide if David Cameron is acting like a modern day Robin Hood or Sheriff of Nottingham...


As an often wrongly despised comedian said, he is the weathercock of public opinion. You'll get whichever answer gets more votes.

But as somebody else mentioned above, the amount of Tory donators who do it also

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Post #: 43
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 6:16:10 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5064
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: jon5000


quote:

ORIGINAL: kumar


The most confusing thing about this is I cant decide if David Cameron is acting like a modern day Robin Hood or Sheriff of Nottingham...


As an often wrongly despised comedian said, he is the weathercock of public opinion. You'll get whichever answer gets more votes.

But as somebody else mentioned above, the amount of Tory donators who do it also


I was quite gobsmacked that he went on telly lambasting Carr without realising he was on extremely shaky ground considering what his backers (and celebrity mates) get up to. I'm not Milliband's biggest fan but at least he was aware enough to realise a politician commenting on the morality of a rich comedian is leaving himnself wide open to get roasted. Here's hoping.

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Post #: 44
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 7:13:24 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


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I just find it funny that a fucking comedian has become the moral barometer of the nation.

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Post #: 45
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 7:22:48 PM   
Deviation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

I just find it funny that a fucking comedian has become the moral barometer of the nation.


It's like Watchmen. Actually no, probably not.

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There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

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Post #: 46
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 8:35:38 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3815
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackduck

I'd be shocked if there are any wealthy that aren't availing of tax avoidance measures. The only critisim here should be the system that allows this to take place and the people who run it. If Cameron doesn't lilke the current tax laws change them, Or how about we scrap the whole tax system and get people to pay on an honour system where everyone pay what they feel they should.

Anyway you guys are lucky, we've got Bono, dodges Irish tax then keeps telling the government how they should be spending it.



If you were a millionaire in Ireland would you pay taxes that go to pay the pensions of the people who bankrupted the country (and the other over spending in the past)?

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Post #: 47
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 21/6/2012 8:38:16 PM   
Woger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker
What sickens me most about these people is they are the ones with the most money and can afford to pay taxes.


Hardly surprising, when some idiot introduces 50% income tax thresholds, that people find ways around it.
No one should pay more than 40% while the government should be closing the loopholes. Although that really is a cat and mouse game and not a war you can ever "win" outright.

There are all sorts of way to "avoid" tax, I just find it amusing how many people get on their high horse about it.

How many people pay workmen cash?
How many business' claim VAT back against anything they can possibly link to the business through any means?
How about loading up on your pension contributions to keep your taxable earnings under a certain threshold?

My company has loads of opportunities to avoid some tax by buying/selling annual leave, investing, purchasing additions, etc to keep me under tax thresholds.
Interesting to try and have a moral debate, when most people will have tried to avoid some sort of payment at somepoint.




Pedant alert; there's a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.
The pension method mightn't be the worse thing, as I think if you extract money afterwards you're penalised.

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Post #: 48
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 12:38:32 AM   
Spaldron


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Post #: 49
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 1:20:06 AM   
Dirk Miggler


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I'm gonna be brutally honest here, if I could I would and the wife and I have already talked about putting the child tax credit away for Uni fees or a deposit on first house. Fuck it, drop in the ocean !

< Message edited by Dirk Miggler -- 22/6/2012 1:21:01 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 1:20:38 AM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron



Too damn true.


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Post #: 51
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 5:22:48 AM   
furrybastard

 

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But... the government decides how taxes are organised. David Cameron does realise he's the Prime Minister and his party are in power, doesn't he?

He's probably on the phone to Rupert Murdoch right now asking him what he should do.

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Post #: 52
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 5:59:27 AM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirk Miggler

I'm gonna be brutally honest here, if I could I would and the wife and I have already talked about putting the child tax credit away for Uni fees or a deposit on first house. Fuck it, drop in the ocean !

As would I and I can tell you exactly how much sleep I'd lose over it.

I'd argue that the majority of the population would if they had the means or the nous because it's not a moral issue any more than card hopping to make the most of low interest rates is. It's a system that can be utilised to save one money and it's up to the managers of that system to make it harder for individuals if they don't agree with it.

A quiet news day so the nation goes celebrity bashing and Cameron's Zeitgeist instructors remove his self-awareness chip and stick him in front of a camera.


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Post #: 53
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 10:27:36 AM   
steffols


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There's something very offputting about the media currently putting Jimmy Carr through the ringer for this. He is not the only one who uses this scheme and I find it incredibly unfair that he is being made a scapegoat because The Times decided a picture of him with his finger over his lips was the best picture to run the story with.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy going around with this story, the David Cameron thing but also this

Sun front page


Sun article from March
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/music/4201957/Were-One-Directors.html

< Message edited by steffols -- 22/6/2012 10:29:15 AM >


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Post #: 54
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 1:24:51 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
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From: the dark side of the sun
Well it is the Sun afterall

Good article about a couple of people who choose to pay their tax:

JK Rowling:

Rowling has eloquently described why she feels compelled to pay her full taxes as a UK resident. "I chose to remain a domiciled taxpayer for a couple of reasons," she said.

"The main one was that I wanted my children to grow up where I grew up, to have proper roots in a culture as old and magnificent as Britain's; to be citizens, with everything that implies, of a real country, not free-floating expats, living in the limbo of some tax haven and associating only with the children of similarly greedy tax exiles.

"A second reason was that I am indebted to the welfare state... When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, threadbare though it had become under John Major, was there to break the fall."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-billionaires-who-do-pay-their-bills-including-james-dyson-and-jk-rowling-7873607.html


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Post #: 55
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 5:42:17 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
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And both rather pathetic.

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Oh my God! They banned Kenny!

Post #: 56
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 6:34:09 PM   
jon5000


Posts: 1089
Joined: 29/3/2007
From: LA
I see Jim Davidson has waded into the debate http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18549380

I feel quite sorry for Carr that Davidson is now one of his allies. I'm not sure he'll recover from that, never mind tax avoidance.

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Post #: 57
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 6:40:41 PM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4328
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8 out of 10 Cats should be worth a watch tonight..

The whole things a bit of non-story really - wealthy celebrity uses loopholes to get out of taxes - so what? It's been going on for years.  Cameron's opportunism is pathetic and hypocritical.

Agree about Davidson - wouldn't want that vile, bitter little man on my side in any situation.


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Post #: 58
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 6:49:44 PM   
DancingClown


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Didn't Davidson try and sue Jimmy Carr a few years back, or vice versa perhaps, over the use of a joke?

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Post #: 59
RE: The Jimmy Carr Crash - 22/6/2012 7:23:02 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12831
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt
I don't really blame Carr, if I were in his position I do think I'd do the same.

If there's any benefit from the story breaking it's that loopholes will be closed and Cameron will be shown up for the hypocrite he is.

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(in reply to DancingClown)
Post #: 60
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