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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 2:07:25 AM   
Spaldron


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From: Chair
This is true concept art at work.

http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2677578

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 7:11:01 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
I look forward to the 'Cock n Balls 4 u' print series.


It is among my most controversial works:


As many of you will have guessed, this particular entry in the series poses a harsh critical eye at man's desire to conquer everything, with the familiar image of the first moon landing. Dominating the horizon is Apollo 11 with, to the right, a purposely obscured image of Neil Armstrong about to step onto the moon's surface, and, on the left, Buzz Aldrin who I have taken artistic licence with and shown him falling backwards off Apollo 11 as a comment about the futility of the assumptions people make that they are the first or the best at something - Armstrong is aiming to step off Apollo 11 as the first man to set foot on the moon whereas, in this picture, Aldrin will probably end up there first by sheer accident after some clumsy footing.

Further illustrating the point is a meteor hole directly underneath the bottom of Apollo 11 and rocks to the left and right of the craft, strongly suggesting to the viewer that these rocks contain minerals which have biological life locked into them making the Apollo crew's assumptions of being the first there null and void.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 10/6/2012 7:12:19 PM >


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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 8:12:44 PM   
Harry Tuttle


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I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

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Post #: 33
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 8:41:43 PM   
Skiba


Posts: 4402
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From: London
I think you're now mixing up conceptual art with abstract

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Post #: 34
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 9:40:43 PM   
gunstar


Posts: 962
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From: Star Lite Star Bright Trailer Park
The way that the layering of the concept, starting with crude imitation (that I was admittedly taken in by at the start) has now blossomed into a satirical critique of conceptual art that self-validates using conceptual art? You can't get any more conceptual. It's SUPERMEGAZORD CONCEPTUAL!!

Badir, Here's 13 Million Quid and the key to my wife.

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Post #: 35
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 10:03:31 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
Badir, Here's 13 Million Quid and the key to my wife.


Is your wife Jet from Gladiators?

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Post #: 36
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 10:18:03 PM   
maffew


Posts: 2808
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From: chester
Reminds me Spaced when they go see Tunde Arungundade's White Painting's of the 20th Century...

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Post #: 37
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 10:22:48 PM   
gunstar


Posts: 962
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Star Lite Star Bright Trailer Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
Badir, Here's 13 Million Quid and the key to my wife.


Is your wife Jet from Gladiators?


Why yes, she is! Perhaps you could use her in a series of portraits. It could be entitled:
'Taking a ride in my private Jet'.


_____________________________

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Post #: 38
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 10:46:32 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
Well, I just finished my first private portrait session with her. And here are the results:


I think you'll agree I've captured her energy, spirit and passion for life and the televisual Gladiatorial way.

I am so proud of this piece, I am actually weeping.

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Post #: 39
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 10/6/2012 11:37:44 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
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From: Enemies of Film HQ
I'd buy that for half a penny.

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 13/6/2012 10:37:52 AM   
borstal


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.

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Post #: 41
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 13/6/2012 12:34:22 PM   
shool


Posts: 10073
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From: In The Pipe, Five by Five.
I genuinely like these pictures more than 99% of what I saw at the Tate in Liverpool.

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 12:05:01 PM   
great_badir


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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18577668

I have Google imaged this and seen it from all sorts of angles. At no point does it look like it's levitating.

EPIC FAIL.

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 12:25:33 PM   
adambatman82

 

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Joined: 15/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18577668

I have Google imaged this and seen it from all sorts of angles. At no point does it look like it's levitating.

EPIC FAIL.


I think it looks amazing, and if not from an artistic standpoint then it certainly is from an engineering/geometric perspective.

Great video of the thing here -

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-levitated-mass-20120625,0,532394.story

From that it looks like its an experience to be had, and not something to judge based on photos. As the LACMA website says, "the negative state of the work is key to the experience": it's not designed to be witnessed second hand. From what I gather, based on the video linked, the levitation comes in to it when your staring at the centre of the rock from down below. I'd be surprised if the intention was anything other, given the massive pieces of metal holding it together that can be seen in most of the photos.

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 25/6/2012 12:27:46 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 1:09:25 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18577668

I have Google imaged this and seen it from all sorts of angles. At no point does it look like it's levitating.

EPIC FAIL.


I think it looks amazing, and if not from an artistic standpoint then it certainly is from an engineering/geometric perspective.

Great video of the thing here -

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-levitated-mass-20120625,0,532394.story

From that it looks like its an experience to be had, and not something to judge based on photos. As the LACMA website says, "the negative state of the work is key to the experience": it's not designed to be witnessed second hand. From what I gather, based on the video linked, the levitation comes in to it when your staring at the centre of the rock from down below. I'd be surprised if the intention was anything other, given the massive pieces of metal holding it together that can be seen in most of the photos.


Admittedly I was being somewhat fajitas.

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 6:17:53 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



No you're not, it really is just a rock on a walkway.

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Post #: 46
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:17:30 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



No you're not, it really is just a rock on a walkway.


I dont understand why that alone cannot be celebrated tho (in that specific case, which most of us seem to acknowledge as an impressive technical feat). Care to explain?

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 25/6/2012 8:20:32 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:23:06 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



I don't think it's a case of you being too dumb to understand it, but a case of you simply not appreciating conceptual art. Which is fine. You don't have to like everything. In all honesty if it winds you up so much I'd just ignore it, safe in the knowledge that millions of other people do get enjoyment out of conceptual art, so the monies spent is not a complete waste even if it doesn't directly benefit you.

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Post #: 48
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:25:08 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5997
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What the fuck is with the bird lady in that vid?

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:29:16 PM   
adambatman82

 

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Just out of interest, what do those of thee decrying the existence of conceptual and modern art think about non-mainstream cinema? Do you turn green with rage at the sight of a David Lynch flick? Carlos Reygadas give you heartburn? I'd be interested to see if there's a line between tolerance of conceptual ideas in general and a rejection of modern art. To me this rejection of conceptual art smacks of a rejection of the notion of the artist, and of a general distrust for ideas that aren't ground in some semblance of recognisability (easily explained cultural or social touch points etc). The obvious comparison point for a film website would obviously be cinema, so lets use that as a reference.

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Post #: 50
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:40:14 PM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
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From: London
I'm reading this at the moment:

http://uk.phaidon.com/store/art/land-and-environmental-art-9780714856438/

Heizer features. It's really interesting.

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 8:46:42 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

I'm reading this at the moment:

http://uk.phaidon.com/store/art/land-and-environmental-art-9780714856438/

Heizer features. It's really interesting.



As the closest thing to an expert in this thread what do you make of his latest piece?

The father of a friend of mine is a geologist, and was one of the folk responsible for quarrying and transporting the Seed to the Eden Project. It was a remarkable project. http://peterrandall-page.com/edenproject/stone7/install-1.htm

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 25/6/2012 8:47:16 PM >

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Post #: 52
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 9:07:22 PM   
JessFranco


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From: London
Ha! I can't claim any expertise. I think one of the things that makes land art so interesting, but also so challenging, is that it's loses so much of its meaning when not experienced first hand. It's probably something that you'd need to see in context to fully appreciate.

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RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 9:32:54 PM   
gunstar


Posts: 962
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Star Lite Star Bright Trailer Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



I don't think it's a case of you being too dumb to understand it, but a case of you simply not appreciating conceptual art. Which is fine. You don't have to like everything. In all honesty if it winds you up so much I'd just ignore it, safe in the knowledge that millions of other people do get enjoyment out of conceptual art, so the monies spent is not a complete waste even if it doesn't directly benefit you.


So if you don't like something, you shouldn't attempt to critique it? Seems very small-minded that. Surely opposing voices need to be heard in an effort to appreciate a piece? In fact, without the negative viewpoint, it's very hard to to have any critique at all as a lot of concept art is fuelled by the 'is it art?' question and the challenging of pre-conceived ideas of worth.


< Message edited by gunstar -- 25/6/2012 9:39:06 PM >


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Post #: 54
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 9:44:07 PM   
Larry of Arabia

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Just out of interest, what do those of thee decrying the existence of conceptual and modern art think about non-mainstream cinema? Do you turn green with rage at the sight of a David Lynch flick? Carlos Reygadas give you heartburn? I'd be interested to see if there's a line between tolerance of conceptual ideas in general and a rejection of modern art. To me this rejection of conceptual art smacks of a rejection of the notion of the artist, and of a general distrust for ideas that aren't ground in some semblance of recognisability (easily explained cultural or social touch points etc). The obvious comparison point for a film website would obviously be cinema, so lets use that as a reference.


Take away the ideas in a David Lynch film and it's still a well-acted, well-directed film with an interesting story behind it. Take away the ideas in a Rothko, for example (if you can say a square of blue is even trying to communicate an idea in the first place), it's an overpriced colour swatch.

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Post #: 55
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 10:11:09 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



I don't think it's a case of you being too dumb to understand it, but a case of you simply not appreciating conceptual art. Which is fine. You don't have to like everything. In all honesty if it winds you up so much I'd just ignore it, safe in the knowledge that millions of other people do get enjoyment out of conceptual art, so the monies spent is not a complete waste even if it doesn't directly benefit you.


So if you don't like something, you shouldn't attempt to critique it? Seems very small-minded that. Surely opposing voices need to be heard in an effort to appreciate a piece? In fact, without the negative viewpoint, it's very hard to to have any critique at all as a lot of concept art is fuelled by the 'is it art?' question and the challenging of pre-conceived ideas of worth.



That's not what I'm saying though. My point (to Badir), is that if a whole sub-section of culture bothers you so much then simply move on and ignore it. I don't like football, but I don't spend time shouting "THIS IS SO STUPID!!" over and over.

I'm open and encouraging of proper debate on why a piece of art may or may not work, but this thread is little more than snark and piss taking.

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Post #: 56
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 10:17:21 PM   
gunstar


Posts: 962
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Star Lite Star Bright Trailer Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

But, whilst I'm sure it's an impressive sight up close and a feat of both nature's and man's engineering, I can't get passed the fact that this guy's just seen a rock, thought it looked good and then spent millions of dollars just placing it on top of a walkway, like he's some kind of genius or something.

Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it all...



I don't think it's a case of you being too dumb to understand it, but a case of you simply not appreciating conceptual art. Which is fine. You don't have to like everything. In all honesty if it winds you up so much I'd just ignore it, safe in the knowledge that millions of other people do get enjoyment out of conceptual art, so the monies spent is not a complete waste even if it doesn't directly benefit you.


So if you don't like something, you shouldn't attempt to critique it? Seems very small-minded that. Surely opposing voices need to be heard in an effort to appreciate a piece? In fact, without the negative viewpoint, it's very hard to to have any critique at all as a lot of concept art is fuelled by the 'is it art?' question and the challenging of pre-conceived ideas of worth.



That's not what I'm saying though. My point (to Badir), is that if a whole sub-section of culture bothers you so much then simply move on and ignore it. I don't like football, but I don't spend time shouting "THIS IS SO STUPID!!" over and over.

I'm open and encouraging of proper debate on why a piece of art may or may not work, but this thread is little more than snark and piss taking.


If you don't like it you can simply move on and ignore it.

I didn't realise that we had to conform to such a limited set of pre-conceived ideas. If conceptual art is really a form of any value, surely it can stand up to a bit of rib-tickling at its inherent absurdity. An absurdity, by the way, that is absolutely critical to its state of being.

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Post #: 57
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 10:19:34 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry of Arabia


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Just out of interest, what do those of thee decrying the existence of conceptual and modern art think about non-mainstream cinema? Do you turn green with rage at the sight of a David Lynch flick? Carlos Reygadas give you heartburn? I'd be interested to see if there's a line between tolerance of conceptual ideas in general and a rejection of modern art. To me this rejection of conceptual art smacks of a rejection of the notion of the artist, and of a general distrust for ideas that aren't ground in some semblance of recognisability (easily explained cultural or social touch points etc). The obvious comparison point for a film website would obviously be cinema, so lets use that as a reference.


Take away the ideas in a David Lynch film and it's still a well-acted, well-directed film with an interesting story behind it. Take away the ideas in a Rothko, for example (if you can say a square of blue is even trying to communicate an idea in the first place), it's an overpriced colour swatch.


But why would you take away the ideas? And I disagree that if you take away the "idea"/concept/subtext/heart of a Lynch film you're left with an accessible (well directed, acted, story driven) film. Mulholland Drive, his finest work, is one that lives and dies based on what is going on under the hood. Everything else is largely window-dressing: its the idea thats the point, not the pretty stuff. The same goes for Eraserhead. At the very least each of his films benefit hugely from context and subtext, in the same way that conceptual art benefits from it's own context and subtext.

And besides, the work we're discussing at the moment, Levitated Mass, is actually a very impressive work outside of context anyway.

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 25/6/2012 10:26:52 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 10:35:09 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
If you don't like it you can simply move on and ignore it.


The key word being "can". You don't have to acknowledge that it exists if its very presence makes you feel so outraged. I'm not saying that anyone should (simply ignore it), but that if they are incapable of forming a serious opposing discourse then why concern themselves with something that they profess to dislike so much? Blind negativity is so very boring, at least try and say something genuine interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
I didn't realise that we had to conform to such a limited set of pre-conceived ideas.


Again, your twisting my words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunstar
If conceptual art is really a form of any value, surely it can stand up to a bit of rib-tickling at its inherent absurdity. An absurdity, by the way, that is absolutely critical to its state of being.


Of course it can. But it's a shame to see a thread that has could actually be used to discuss something in an interesting descend in to "HOW STUPID IS ART THAT I ADMITTEDLY DONT UNDERSTAND/AM COMPLETELY IGNORANT TOWARDS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" and dick jokes. No one is attempting to analyse the artists intent or anything of the sort, it's just the sort of "this looks stupid", "anyone can do that", "overpriced rubbish" rhetoric that can be found in the comments section of any news article related to any piece of vaguely challenging art.

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Post #: 59
RE: If you think Damien Hirst is mad.... - 25/6/2012 11:10:05 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1158
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

I dont understand why that alone cannot be celebrated tho (in that specific case, which most of us seem to acknowledge as an impressive technical feat). Care to explain?


But that would be a slightly different discussion. There are plenty of impressive technical feats which, while admirable, are not readily classified as "art".

Personally I believe the definition of art has become far too broad in one way and much too narrow in another.

The legal definition of art is, broadly speaking (as there are, as with anything remotely legal, myriad minutiae), anything done by an artist with the intention that it is to be art. This is astonishingly broad by necessity as copyright, which is the key legal protection available to artists, has to cover the bad as well as the sublime. As a court is no place to discern artistic value the definition has to encompass all works which could potentially be called art without worrying about aesthetic merit. It purposely does not require an artist prove his qualification to be called such, as for legal purposes it is all but irrelevant.

As such the definition is perfectly reasonable within its remit but hopelessly naive outside it.

Sadly it seems to me that, at least for a significant number of people, this approach (or something very much like it) is the default starting point for discussing who is or isn't an artist and by extension what is or isn't art. By that standard anyone can claim to be an artist merely by professing they are, and all that remains once such declaration is made is whether they are a good artist or a poor artist. I feel it is too broad to have any real meaning.

Perversely, this approach leads to where I think the definition has become too narrow. I believe anything can be elevated to art, even the most mundane thing, if done with consummate skill and artistry; whether or not the maker professes to be an artist. Using this measure it is the end product and/or the journey to produce it that is key, not the intention.

The likes of da Vinci, Van Gough, Picasso, Dali and yes, even Rothko were painters (among other things) but it was the quality of the work that they produced that made them artists; not the affectations and eccentricities they may have enshrouded their personae with.

Any numpty with a camera is a de facto photographer, but very few can use it in such a way as to be artists.

Give me the same tools they had and I might produce something not unpleasant to look at, but it wouldn't be art and I would not pretend to be, or pretentious enough to call myself, an artist.

Similarly there are those with no pretension of being artists whose work is so perfect an example of its kind to transcend itself to become a work of art. Many of these are skilled craftsmen (and women) going about their trade creating works mundane of function, but beautiful none the less for it.

This little diatribe does nothing of course to answer the question, "what is art?"

I am certainly not qualified to answer it. But then again the question itself is all but pointless. It is so subjective that any attempt to quantify it is destined to fail. It is entirely because a definition is so elusive that that which it defines is so potent to the beholder.

Sure a theorist can come up with rules and theories to attempt to shape critical appraisals, but art will not be restrained by such crude mechanisms. A work can follow all the rules and despite this (or perhaps because of this) can be bereft of that magical quality that great art contains. Another work can throw all the rules out, defy all conventions and be an unqualified masterpiece.

I guess the crux of the matter is where something is so personal; where feelings one way or the other are so subjective, trying to fit them into neat little categories is pointless. Unfortunately that is something we, as humans, are programmed to do at a primal level.

There was a big hue and cry when Roger Ebert stated that video games could never be art. Those who take video games very seriously became very upset and many words were written on how Ebert was wrong (in often less than polite terms) across the length and breadth of the internet.

What they failed to understand is that just because someone has a different opinion to you that doesn't mean yours is somehow diminished.

Opinion is a strange thing. It can seem incredibly authoritative but can almost always be attacked by those with an opposing view. I have long felt the term "objective opinion" (which is one much used at such times and one I'm very likely guilty of using when attempting to make a point) is a bit of a contradiction. The two parts, objective and opinion, are in most cases mutually exclusive. You can have objective data, and can form your opinion based on it, but that does not make your opinion any less subjective.

As such even the most learned body can have opinions which are easily undermined; especially when they venture outside their comfort zone.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't have our opinions and feel strongly about them. It doesn't mean we shouldn't debate them vigorously and defend them when challenged.

What it does mean is that we must accept that not everyone feels the same way we do about the things upon which we feel strongly. It also means that sometimes the best we can hope for is a stalemate; an agreement to differ. There are times when fighting over these things; even if we feel strongly about them, like a dog with a bone becomes not only counter productive, but it defies all reason.

My observations above are not definitive, and I fully expect others to challenge them with their own. It is even possible some observation will be so persuasive as to make me re-think my own opinion. I would not take this as a defeat for my arguments: more as a victory for my ability to grow as a person as I learn and reflect upon that which I learn.

To think any other way is to invite dogmatism. And that is the death knell to all reasoned debate.

(in reply to adambatman82)
Post #: 60
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