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RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 6:19:24 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9864
Joined: 30/9/2005

I can easily imagine sometime during his life Balotelli will do a Forrest Gump-esque run across Europe.

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Post #: 511

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 7:08:16 PM

Rinc

Posts: 12518
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

So with all this in mind, Barcelona and United are essentially on an equal footing to judge their European performances on. Five European Cup/CL finals for Barca in the two and a bit decades we're focusing on - 1991/92, 1993/94, 2005/06, 2008/09 and 2010/11. Four for United - 1998/99, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2010/11. Now, admittedly Barca have more wins (four from five compared to United's two from four), but two of those finals overlapped and there can only be one winner - generally the best team in the world is going to win, sorry United fans - would you extend your assertion that United have been inconsistent in Europe in relation to their domestic performance to Barcelona, given that they've gone out of first two rounds five times out of the eighteen seasons we're referring to (27%)?

I would extend it to Barcelona for the early 90s yes, they didn't transfer their domestic dominance to Europe. But since 94-95 they haven't dominated domestically in the same way Man Utd have so it's not an equal footing. If we take the period 94/95 to 08/09 when they started their dominance again, they won La Liga 4 times. In the same period of 15 years Man Utd won the league 8 times. Not only that but Barca finished outside the top 3 on 4 occasions. Man Utd never have.

So back to the original argument. Ferguson has indeed been inconsistent in Europe and hasn't transferred domestic dominance to the CL. The Barcelona Dream Team didn't transfer their dominance either but since that ended they didn't dominate La Liga again until 08/09. Man Utd on the other hand remained the dominant team in English football and yet didn't transfer that to Europe. Since 08/09 Barca have been champions of Europe as many times as Ferguson has in 20 years.

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Post #: 512

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 7:30:45 PM

Olaf

Posts: 23364
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41�N 93�W

It was a rhetorical question about Barca - my point is that it's impossible to dominate the CL and relatively speaking, Ferguson's European record is as good as anyone's. Any top European team you care to name has roughly the same record in the same time span; Real Madrid have been in three finals since the introduction of the CL, Milan, Bayern Munich and Juventus have been in four, Ajax have been in two (Munich and Ajax being another two teams who can be said to have dominated their respective leagues in the period). The Champions League is also way harder to win than the old European Cup was, so that should be taken into account before comparing Ferguson to 50s Real/70s-80s Liverpool/early-70s Munich/etc.

I don't mean to be coming off as a Ferguson fanboy or anything (I can't stand him to be honest), but the claim that he's underperformed in Europe doesn't hold up when you consider the realities of the tournament itself. The current Barcelona team are possibly the best ever, so it's not really fair to compare wins (even though continuing to compete over a long period of time like Ferguson's United have, even if it doesn't mean winning regularly, is arguably just as impressive.)

< Message edited by Olaf -- 30/1/2013 7:31:11 PM >

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Post #: 513

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 9:18:16 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15080
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From: North Devon

Tonight's Olympic silver for diving goes to Lukas Podolski, the gold to Jack Wilshere....

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Post #: 514

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 9:21:25 PM

Olaf

Posts: 23364
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I didn't see the Podolski one but the Wilshere dive was laughable. Maybe they're being unduly influenced by The Antichrist(TM) Luis Suarez.

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Post #: 515

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 9:39:37 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15080
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

I didn't see the Podolski one but the Wilshere dive was laughable. Maybe they're being unduly influenced by The Antichrist(TM) Luis Suarez.

With the Podolski one he just ran into the back of the defender, I'm not sure how you can trip someone up if your not even sure where they are! Yep, quite possibly, I mean everything else that is wrong with English football seems to be Suarez's fault these days. If Charlton lose the derby to Palace on Saturday I'm already plotting some way to put it all on him.

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Post #: 516

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 10:02:15 PM

Olaf

Posts: 23364
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From: 41�N 93�W

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

I didn't see the Podolski one but the Wilshere dive was laughable. Maybe they're being unduly influenced by The Antichrist(TM) Luis Suarez.

With the Podolski one he just ran into the back of the defender, I'm not sure how you can trip someone up if your not even sure where they are! Yep, quite possibly, I mean everything else that is wrong with English football seems to be Suarez's fault these days. If Charlton lose the derby to Palace on Saturday I'm already plotting some way to put it all on him.

Ah I get you now, I didn't see that as a dive though to be honest - I think he was going that direction anyway with intending to go down, and it's expected (if incredibly tedious) that anyone who goes down in the box will look for a penalty. Giroud got a 4.5 for his jump though, lovely technique.

I actually whacked my foot into my bed on the way back to my seat as it happens. DAMN YOU LUIS.

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Post #: 517

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 10:20:41 PM

OPEN YOUR EYES

Posts: 3473
Joined: 5/2/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

Oh,Arsenal will win

idiot.

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Post #: 518

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 10:38:32 PM

Rinc

Posts: 12518
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: A park bench, with a newspaper quilt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

It was a rhetorical question about Barca - my point is that it's impossible to dominate the CL and relatively speaking, Ferguson's European record is as good as anyone's. Any top European team you care to name has roughly the same record in the same time span; Real Madrid have been in three finals since the introduction of the CL, Milan, Bayern Munich and Juventus have been in four, Ajax have been in two (Munich and Ajax being another two teams who can be said to have dominated their respective leagues in the period). The Champions League is also way harder to win than the old European Cup was, so that should be taken into account before comparing Ferguson to 50s Real/70s-80s Liverpool/early-70s Munich/etc.

But Ferguson's record isn't as good as anyone's given his domestic dominance. Out of those teams you've listed, and discounting Ajax because they just don't have the resources the others do, only Bayern have dominated their domestic league as much as Man U. And Bayern are well known as bottlers who haven't converted talent into European success. The CL may be harder to win than the European Cup but it's easier to get into and given Man Utd's players and resources, a QF place should be a definite every year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

I don't mean to be coming off as a Ferguson fanboy or anything (I can't stand him to be honest), but the claim that he's underperformed in Europe doesn't hold up when you consider the realities of the tournament itself.

It does hold up. Man Utd have dominated their domestic league more than any other major European power apart from Bayern in the last 20 years. In that time Man Utd have never finished outside of the top 3 and have resources most big clubs can only dream of. And yet there has never been a time when you could say Man Utd have been the best club in Europe over a 3-5 year period. Even in the last 5 years, when Man Utd have been their most consistent in the CL in reaching the final (and yet still went out in the group stage in those 5 years), there has always been the shadow of other teams who are held in higher regard hovering over them. Before those 5 years Man Utd reached only one final in 15 years. Most people at the time said Man Utd had failed to reach their potential in Europe and I think it can still be said.

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Post #: 519

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 30/1/2013 10:52:38 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15080
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

I didn't see the Podolski one but the Wilshere dive was laughable. Maybe they're being unduly influenced by The Antichrist(TM) Luis Suarez.

With the Podolski one he just ran into the back of the defender, I'm not sure how you can trip someone up if your not even sure where they are! Yep, quite possibly, I mean everything else that is wrong with English football seems to be Suarez's fault these days. If Charlton lose the derby to Palace on Saturday I'm already plotting some way to put it all on him.

Ah I get you now, I didn't see that as a dive though to be honest - I think he was going that direction anyway with intending to go down, and it's expected (if incredibly tedious) that anyone who goes down in the box will look for a penalty. Giroud got a 4.5 for his jump though, lovely technique.

I actually whacked my foot into my bed on the way back to my seat as it happens. DAMN YOU LUIS.

I think what got me was the way he stuck his own foot out in an attempt to force a connection of bodies with the defender, went down flapping like an injured seagull whilst squealing like a 9-year old girl at the referee. I didn't see Giroud's, I was busy sticking needles in my Suarez doll...

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Post #: 520

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 12:28:26 AM

Olaf

Posts: 23364
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41�N 93�W

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

It was a rhetorical question about Barca - my point is that it's impossible to dominate the CL and relatively speaking, Ferguson's European record is as good as anyone's. Any top European team you care to name has roughly the same record in the same time span; Real Madrid have been in three finals since the introduction of the CL, Milan, Bayern Munich and Juventus have been in four, Ajax have been in two (Munich and Ajax being another two teams who can be said to have dominated their respective leagues in the period). The Champions League is also way harder to win than the old European Cup was, so that should be taken into account before comparing Ferguson to 50s Real/70s-80s Liverpool/early-70s Munich/etc.

But Ferguson's record isn't as good as anyone's given his domestic dominance. Out of those teams you've listed, and discounting Ajax because they just don't have the resources the others do, only Bayern have dominated their domestic league as much as Man U. And Bayern are well known as bottlers who haven't converted talent into European success. The CL may be harder to win than the European Cup but it's easier to get into and given Man Utd's players and resources, a QF place should be a definite every year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

I don't mean to be coming off as a Ferguson fanboy or anything (I can't stand him to be honest), but the claim that he's underperformed in Europe doesn't hold up when you consider the realities of the tournament itself.

It does hold up. Man Utd have dominated their domestic league more than any other major European power apart from Bayern in the last 20 years. In that time Man Utd have never finished outside of the top 3 and have resources most big clubs can only dream of. And yet there has never been a time when you could say Man Utd have been the best club in Europe over a 3-5 year period. Even in the last 5 years, when Man Utd have been their most consistent in the CL in reaching the final (and yet still went out in the group stage in those 5 years), there has always been the shadow of other teams who are held in higher regard hovering over them. Before those 5 years Man Utd reached only one final in 15 years. Most people at the time said Man Utd had failed to reach their potential in Europe and I think it can still be said.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I just can't agree when there's been no team to dominate the Champions League in the way you're describing. You can point to domestic dominance, but it's totally arbitrary when it comes to European football (which is what my point with the wall of text about Barcelona was). Being the best in a league means nothing except being better than the other teams in that country, and has no correlation to being the best team in Europe. The PL was well behind the Serie A and La Liga throughout the 90s and the early 00s as well, so that needs to be taken into consideration. And during the period in the mid/late-00s where English football became the dominant force, they were the most successful English team in the tournament (along with Liverpool). The only time in the history of the CL where one team has been the best in Europe for a number of years in a row is recently with Barcelona, and even then they haven't won it back to back.

The domestic dominance argument only holds water when it was the European Cup and only the league champions qualified, which is why Liverpool were able to win a much smaller tournament repeatedly during a period in which they bossed the English game as well. Other than that, it's just too difficult to have a monopoly on European success, and that's nothing to do with domestic leagues. If you take Ferguson's record in Europe in what it should be based on - his performances in Europe, and not about how he 'should have done' - then it's roughly as good as Real Madrid (six consecutive round of 16 exits from 04/05 to 09/10), Barcelona (the aforementioned five early exits), Bayern Munich (four) or A.C. Milan (five). If these teams aren't the closest to 'dominant' you can think of in the Champions League, I don't know who are.

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Post #: 521

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 10:11:00 AM

Professor Moriarty

Posts: 8583
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: the waters of Casablanca

Harry Redknapp in December

quote:

Asked about his plans for the January transfer window, Redknapp said: "I don't want to spend their (the club's) money, to be honest with you. "There are a lot of players at this club who earn far too much money for what they are; far, far, far too much money for their ability and what they give to the club. "There are a lot of players at this club who earn far too much money for what they are. "I don't really want to see the owners have their pants taken down like they have in the past. There's a lot of agents made money out of them. "I fined a player last week and he was earning more than any player earned at Tottenham.

"You shouldn't be paying massive wages when you've got a stadium that holds 18,000 people

Harry Redknapp on January transfer deadline day

quote:

Christopher Samba is set to complete a �12.5m move to QPR from Russian side Anzhi Makhachkala after agreeing personal terms and passing a medical.
It is understood the ex-Blackburn defender, 28, will receive �100,000-a-week, including bonuses and add-ons.

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Post #: 522

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 1:44:41 PM

emogeek

Posts: 21724
Joined: 15/4/2006
From: Satan's Trampoline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty

Harry Redknapp in December

quote:

Asked about his plans for the January transfer window, Redknapp said: "I don't want to spend their (the club's) money, to be honest with you. "There are a lot of players at this club who earn far too much money for what they are; far, far, far too much money for their ability and what they give to the club. "There are a lot of players at this club who earn far too much money for what they are. "I don't really want to see the owners have their pants taken down like they have in the past. There's a lot of agents made money out of them. "I fined a player last week and he was earning more than any player earned at Tottenham.

"You shouldn't be paying massive wages when you've got a stadium that holds 18,000 people

Harry Redknapp on January transfer deadline day

quote:

Christopher Samba is set to complete a �12.5m move to QPR from Russian side Anzhi Makhachkala after agreeing personal terms and passing a medical.
It is understood the ex-Blackburn defender, 28, will receive �100,000-a-week, including bonuses and add-ons.

Spooky - I was just coming on here to make exactly the same point (with the same quote from December too!)

But let's not forget. He's no wheeler dealer... http://youtu.be/xJBsI7RAuvk

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Post #: 523

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 3:43:53 PM

Professor Moriarty

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I wanted to get in there before the Fiver runs the same thing

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Post #: 524

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 4:28:35 PM

directorscut

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I told Wenger to sign him years ago!

QPR are screwed if when they go down. A player on �100,000p/w. LOL.

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Post #: 525

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 4:32:29 PM

Flatulent_Bob

Posts: 7795
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quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

I told Wenger to sign him years ago!

QPR are screwed if when they go down. A player on �100,000p/w. LOL.

But it won't be Harrys fault, how would he know that QPR with 18K per week couldn't afford a �100,000p/w player?

QPR and Southampton still the two I'm hoping fall through the cracks to the Championship.

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Post #: 526

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 4:43:10 PM

Olaf

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From: 41�N 93�W

This has been stuck in my head since yesterday evening - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_f1N51Gv9c Apt because at midnight tonight I'll be crying more than my sister did at the end of Les Miserables.

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Post #: 527

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 4:49:38 PM

superdan

Posts: 7238
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

This has been stuck in my head since yesterday evening - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_f1N51Gv9c Apt because at midnight tonight I'll be crying more than my sister did at the end of Les Miserables.

Yeah, like any of us believe it was your 'sister' that was crying like a pussy at the end of Les Mis.

Edit: And as for 'Arry and the shenanigans at QPR - does anyone else think this carries more than a whiff of Portsmouth about it? I mean, Samba is obviously a triffic player, absolutely top top drawer, but �100k a week?

< Message edited by superdan -- 31/1/2013 4:54:24 PM >

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Post #: 528

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 4:50:49 PM

Professor Moriarty

Posts: 8583
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

This has been stuck in my head since yesterday evening - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_f1N51Gv9c Apt because at midnight tonight I'll be crying more than my sister did at the end of Les Miserables.

Yeah, like any of us believe it was your 'sister' that was crying like a pussy at the end of Les Mis.

That was great tho. The 'Arry bit is inspired.

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Post #: 529

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:07:43 PM

emogeek

Posts: 21724
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Interesting...

West Bromwich Albion statement: "Albion have moved to clarify developments regarding Peter Odemwingie after the striker was filmed a short while ago arriving at Loftus Road.

"The club can confirm they have held further discussions with QPR today but those talks have so far proven fruitless and no agreement has been reached.

"Albion would also like to make clear that Peter has not been given permission to speak to QPR about a potential move."

But remember - he's a not a wheeler dealer. He's a F@@king football manager....

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Post #: 530

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:16:00 PM

Professor Moriarty

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I think that Harry really needs Odemwingie. I can certainly see that with him in the side they'd be favourites to win the Championship next season

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Post #: 531

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:17:13 PM

emogeek

Posts: 21724
Joined: 15/4/2006
From: Satan's Trampoline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty

I think that Harry really needs Odemwingie. I can certainly see that with him in the side they'd be favourites to win the Championship next season

Even with the 10 point penalty?

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Post #: 532

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:17:42 PM

Professor Moriarty

Posts: 8583
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quote:

ORIGINAL: emogeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty

I think that Harry really needs Odemwingie. I can certainly see that with him in the side they'd be favourites to win the Championship next season

Even with the 10 point penalty?

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Post #: 533

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:22:08 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

Posts: 12723
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quote:

ORIGINAL: emogeek

Interesting...

West Bromwich Albion statement: "Albion have moved to clarify developments regarding Peter Odemwingie after the striker was filmed a short while ago arriving at Loftus Road.

"The club can confirm they have held further discussions with QPR today but those talks have so far proven fruitless and no agreement has been reached.

"Albion would also like to make clear that Peter has not been given permission to speak to QPR about a potential move."

But remember - he's a not a wheeler dealer. He's a F@@king football manager....

These quotes from Odemwingie are ridiculous if the above is true:

quote:

Odemwingie had earlier told Sky Sports News: "Of course I love West Brom and I always will. But I'm very optimistic that I will join QPR, it's a new chapter in my life.

"I am optimistic. A few good players have arrived here (at QPR) and I am happy with the trust Harry Redknapp has in me.

"The last few results have given us a chance to stay up. I don't think the owners will bring in so many players if they don't think it will happen.

"It's not 100 per cent (the deal), it's not sorted yet but I hope West Brom will be happy with what they get. And of course they are hoping to get players themselves.

"I just hope things will go well in the next few hours."

Referring to QPR as "us" wont' do him any favours if no deal is in place/emerges.

Here's hoping for some lovely FA sanctions against Arry, QPR and Odemwingie.

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Post #: 534

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:42:33 PM

directorscut

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If they didn't sanction Ferguson over kidnapping Berbatov they're not going to do anything here.

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RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:45:40 PM

emogeek

Posts: 21724
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From: Satan's Trampoline

I'm waiting for Spurs to sweep in with an 11th hour agreement for Odemwingie....

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Post #: 536

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 8:51:21 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

If they didn't sanction Ferguson over kidnapping Berbatov they're not going to do anything here.

You've got your anti-United/anti-Ferguson logic all muddled up, surely Harry will get sanctioned for things Fergie doesn't because the FA are scared of Fergie and he gets away with everything?

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Post #: 537

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 9:00:04 PM

Sexual Harassment Panda

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On that very same note, reports are emerging that Howard Webb has been spotted at Old Trafford to undergo a medical.

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Post #: 538

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 9:02:11 PM

Professor Moriarty

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Tenuous PL link in that Will.I.An will not be joining Chelsea (or anyone else) in the near future as apparently he's off to Anzi for about 30M.

More evidence today that money does indeed talk and it mostly says "come here my son" (in an 'Arry voice)

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Post #: 539

RE: Premier League 2012-2013 Results & Discussion - 31/1/2013 9:27:49 PM

Professor Moriarty

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Big move for Stoke. Does this mean that Crouch is off.. and Odemwingie is going back home with his tail between his legs? Anyway, one man who was Ready for a move... Brek Shea, from Dallas to Stoke.

(in reply to Professor Moriarty)

Post #: 540