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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 8/6/2012 8:21:55 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doubtlesswonder
The downside, I think, is that it is only REALLY enjoyable to those of us who absolutely love the original Alien. It isn't really a film for the casual viewers. Two of my friends went to see it and said they thought it was only ok, but they aren't really huge Alien fans, so a lot of the little references- and the whole space jockey thing- would have been lost on them.



That's interesting, because one of the most common responses I've seen to complaints about the film is that it's just 'Alien fanboys whinging'. I'd be inclined to agree with you though, I don't honestly know how much it offers as a stand-alone film.

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Post #: 31
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 8/6/2012 8:57:19 PM   
doubtlesswonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: doubtlesswonder
The downside, I think, is that it is only REALLY enjoyable to those of us who absolutely love the original Alien. It isn't really a film for the casual viewers. Two of my friends went to see it and said they thought it was only ok, but they aren't really huge Alien fans, so a lot of the little references- and the whole space jockey thing- would have been lost on them.



That's interesting, because one of the most common responses I've seen to complaints about the film is that it's just 'Alien fanboys whinging'. I'd be inclined to agree with you though, I don't honestly know how much it offers as a stand-alone film.


Well, a fair amount of the complaints I've seen are from Alien fans who didn't get the exact film that they want, but more complaints seem to be coming from people who don't get a lot of what happened. I don't think it works so well as a stand-alone film. There are so many little references in there, and things like the space jockey that Alien fans have been waiting for an explanation for for YEARS. If you aren't someone who saw Alien and wanted these little things explained, then I don't really think Prometheus is a big thing for you. For me, it was brilliant, I loved it and will be buying it on blu-ray. But for the people who just went to see it based on the trailers, or media campaign, or hype they'd heard then it was probably just an ok sci-fi film.


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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/6/2012 1:49:15 AM   
Rgirvan44


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Just to be clear is anyone saying AVP is better than Prometheus?

Is anyone saying AVP:R is better?

I need to know the hows and whys of this.

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/6/2012 8:45:20 AM   
Cool Breeze


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I think AVP is better than Prometheus.Its more fun and makes a lot more sense ( And it has a better Weyland ).

Prometheus is better than Requiem though ( Not hard ).

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/6/2012 8:59:31 AM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze

I think AVP is better than Prometheus.Its more fun and makes a lot more sense ( And it has a better Weyland ).

Prometheus is better than Requiem though ( Not hard ).


But theres no risk in AVP,no sense of flamboyance,no sense of asking big questions.
Its just a case of two bad guys fighting in a tomb with some humans bumbling about.And the end..

Not only did AVP mess-up the Alien franchise it also messed up the Predator franchise by making the Predator have a (blooming) conscience,something I also blame at Predator2 to a degree.

< Message edited by OPEN YOUR EYES -- 10/6/2012 9:17:51 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/6/2012 10:14:32 AM   
Cool Breeze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze

I think AVP is better than Prometheus.Its more fun and makes a lot more sense ( And it has a better Weyland ).

Prometheus is better than Requiem though ( Not hard ).


But theres no risk in AVP,no sense of flamboyance,no sense of asking big questions.
Its just a case of two bad guys fighting in a tomb with some humans bumbling about.And the end..

Not only did AVP mess-up the Alien franchise it also messed up the Predator franchise by making the Predator have a (blooming) conscience,something I also blame at Predator2 to a degree.


In fairness, both the Alien and Predator franchises were both pretty much dead before AVP came along.There hadnt been a Predator movie in 14 years and no Alien movie in 7 years.The success of AVP made both franchises viable again.

As for Predators having a conscience, I see them as having a warriors code.The Pred only teamed up with the Sanaa Lathann character cos they shared the same enemy and figured she deserved a fighting chance.

You kill a Pred like Danny Glover did in P2 that deserves respect.The same thing happened to Batman in the Batman vs Predator graphic novel.I personally like these chatacteristics that the Preds have as it sets them apart from being just mindless killing machines like The Aliens.


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Post #: 36
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/6/2012 11:56:02 AM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze


quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze

I think AVP is better than Prometheus.Its more fun and makes a lot more sense ( And it has a better Weyland ).

Prometheus is better than Requiem though ( Not hard ).


But theres no risk in AVP,no sense of flamboyance,no sense of asking big questions.
Its just a case of two bad guys fighting in a tomb with some humans bumbling about.And the end..

Not only did AVP mess-up the Alien franchise it also messed up the Predator franchise by making the Predator have a (blooming) conscience,something I also blame at Predator2 to a degree.


In fairness, both the Alien and Predator franchises were both pretty much dead before AVP came along.There hadnt been a Predator movie in 14 years and no Alien movie in 7 years.The success of AVP made both franchises viable again.

As for Predators having a conscience, I see them as having a warriors code.The Pred only teamed up with the Sanaa Lathann character cos they shared the same enemy and figured she deserved a fighting chance.

You kill a Pred like Danny Glover did in P2 that deserves respect.The same thing happened to Batman in the Batman vs Predator graphic novel.I personally like these chatacteristics that the Preds have as it sets them apart from being just mindless killing machines like The Aliens.



See I like the Predators to be more brutal and I think there is more fear in that.
Thats why I never liked to ending to either AVP or Predator2.I felt the script writers and Directors went for the weak-charm offensive and made the Predators come across as somewhat likealbe killers.
Personally I feel they should be more of a pack, "if you kill one of my guys then I'll kill you" not "if you kill one of my guys you've got my respect".
I tend to see the Predators more of an Army, More of the sense that they are a selfsih killers and nothing will sway them, and I think there is a daunting fear in that.
I still haven't seen Predators so my opinion on that is still open.

Which brings me back to Prometheus where the egineer is brutal in his dealings with David8,Peter Weyland and the Doctor in swipping them off like they were mere flys,which also questions how them and other races might see us Humans (though you could question why they made us if thats there opinion).


Onto the ,somewhat,lost Alien franchise which consisted of two great films and two messed up films,though I have a strong liking for the Alien3 Producers Cut.
To me the Xenomorphs are fascinating characters in themselves but I dont think any film has gave them great depth as of yet.I thought Prometheus was going to do that in some stage but they did'nt,they could in the future but I dont see that happening not with Ridley wanting to take this Prometheus's franchise somewhere else,which I'm happy with.

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Post #: 37
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 18/6/2012 10:35:24 AM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Just to be clear is anyone saying AVP is better than Prometheus?

Is anyone saying AVP:R is better?

I need to know the hows and whys of this.


no way. best to worst now id say:

(*****) - Alien/Aliens
(****) - Prometheus
(***) - A3
(**) - AvP, AR
(*) - AvP:R


< Message edited by jackcarter -- 18/6/2012 10:44:06 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 18/6/2012 12:54:22 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
there was also the question of if Blade Runner would be somehow incorperated into the Alien-verse. again the TED talk sort of cleared that up - no replicants in 2023...no OW colonies...no mention of Tyrell = not connected

still that wont stop something like this happening eventually (or BR v P):
http://deankotz.deviantart.com/art/Aliens-VS-Blade-Runner-286951332

< Message edited by jackcarter -- 27/6/2012 10:52:37 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 19/6/2012 8:14:41 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: darko18

Last night I realised Prometheus contradicted Predator 2 - there wouldn't be any xenomorph skulls to hang on a wall if they didn't exist until 2083 or whatever it was.

Let's retcon Prometheus because I enjoyed Predator 2 more.

not necessarily - what do you think killed the engineers 2000 years ago (holes in chest) and Alien's SJ for that matter. plus the mural of the xeno on the wall suggests xenos have been aroung a long time - so Predators could well have encountered them - experimented with them...

< Message edited by jackcarter -- 25/6/2012 3:16:52 PM >
Post #: 40
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 19/6/2012 8:48:58 PM   
paul_ie86


Posts: 11422
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darko18

Although to produce a xenomorph, don't you need a human to be involved?


Nope.


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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 19/6/2012 9:38:43 PM   
paul_ie86


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There was a Xenomorph in Alien 3 that came from an ox (in the extended cut anyway).

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 20/6/2012 8:17:42 PM   
paul_ie86


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Ah I thought you meant each of the Xenomorphs.

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 20/6/2012 8:46:59 PM   
UTB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze

As for Predators having a conscience, I see them as having a warriors code.



This is evident in the first by Pred not killing anyone without a weapon.

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Post #: 44
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 21/6/2012 7:55:17 AM   
djdarrenjames


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Prometheus was (for me) this decades Phantom Menace, a huge disapointment after months of anticipation and excitement. yeah it was visually great but the plot hole riddled story was really limp and predictable with (with the exception of David and possibly Theron) a bunch of forgetable characters who acted way to weirdly.

Anyway, onto the OP - I had not realised the similiarities between the two movies until this thread so nice catch guys. That's quite shocking. A common trope in all these movies is the lone surivivor (usually a woman) who goes through a baptism in blood before empowering herself and was gutted to see Scott go that route.
Haven't got time to over think it but the formula sort of goes like this for all the movies:

someone finds something
team brought together
some of them don't get along
team go somewhere
team find creepy clues
the clues lead to disaster
team start dying as the horror is unleashed
something close to the protag is in danger
protag loses something close to them
the horror grows in power
protag empowers themselves
protag fights back

In regards to AVP and Pred cannon status and trying to work out "Scott's master plan" I firmly believe that Scott didn't give a shit about ANYTHING that was established outside of the his original work, Aliens possibly included.
I mentioned in earlier posts about Scott moaning in his interviews about how, in all the sequels/prequels/parallelequels that no one had asked about the engineers origins. I believed the reason was that no one cared! SO, fair enough, Scott goes and answers that question himself and just ends up with a mess that just raises more questions.





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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 21/6/2012 10:23:08 AM   
Gazz


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I think it's worth note to remember that AvP ripped off a good few ideas from the original Alien draft which resulted in a story credit for O Bannon on Anderson's film.

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Post #: 46
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 21/6/2012 11:47:47 AM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006

quote:



In regards to AVP and Pred cannon status and trying to work out "Scott's master plan" I firmly believe that Scott didn't give a shit about ANYTHING that was established outside of the his original work, Aliens possibly included.

agree that Scott wouldnít have cared if Prometheus fits in with AvP at all (he even said hes never seen it), its just lucky for AvP that it didnt seem to contradict it much and any discrepancies can be explained away fairly easily

there was an effort to incorporate Aliens though - as seen with the Colonial Marine stuff in the Weyland timeline, WeylanD (not Weylan as in Alien), using LV233 (like LV426) and what looked to be a queen in the mural

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Post #: 47
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 21/6/2012 11:59:53 AM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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Joined: 5/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackcarter


quote:



In regards to AVP and Pred cannon status and trying to work out "Scott's master plan" I firmly believe that Scott didn't give a shit about ANYTHING that was established outside of the his original work, Aliens possibly included.

agree that Scott wouldnít have cared if Prometheus fits in with AvP at all (he even said hes never seen it), its just lucky for AvP that it didnt seem to contradict it much and any discrepancies can be explained away fairly easily

there was an effort to incorporate Aliens though - as seen with the Colonial Marine stuff in the Weyland timeline, WeylanD (not Weylan as in Alien), using LV233 (like LV426) and what looked to be a queen in the mural


Scott has seen it from what I gather.He would'nt have an opinion on it if he had'nt.

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Post #: 48
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 25/6/2012 3:03:26 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
donít mean to be pedantic, but see last question:
http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1510

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Post #: 49
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 25/6/2012 4:14:13 PM   
prontron07

 

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From: oklahoma,usa
Who wins predator vs engineer haha

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 27/6/2012 10:53:03 AM   
jackcarter


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whoever wins....oh you know

this is the one crossover id most want to see (in comics):
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryRoom.asp?GSub=37499

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Post #: 51
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 28/6/2012 9:58:46 AM   
st3veebee


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With all this talk...I ended up recording AVP last night. Kinda looking forward to watching it again!


Actually, I also bought the latest game this week as well.

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RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 5/7/2012 6:57:10 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: st3veebee
Actually, I also bought the latest game this week as well.

is that the Aliens Colonial Marine one? i read a while ago that game was incorperating Prometheus somehow?...

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Post #: 53
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 9/9/2012 11:03:13 AM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
read this interesting theory on imdb which if correct would explain why Prometheus was so similar to AvP:

quote:

If you read about the development of Alien vs. Predator, you'll notice that the project started as James Cameron's screenplay for Alien 5, which he wrote and Ridley Scott was going to direct. I'm not entirely sure what it was about, but it bore at least some resemblance to AvP's storyline.

Then, the producers decided to make AvP instead of Alien 5, at which point Cameron and Scott ditched the project completely. But FOX did hire Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shussett, who wrote Alien, to write the movie.

What did O'Bannon come up with? He wanted to show that when the xenomorph grows up, it becomes a predator. Or, more precisely, a predator is a xenomorph at a higher stage of evolution. Also, there was a black goo involved in the story somehow.

Then, P.T. Anderson's pitch for AvP (which dates back to the 1990s), made its way into the hands of the producer of Predator, who felt strongly that Anderson's pitch was the way to go. O'Bannon and Shussett were out.

Now... I have a hunch that O'Bannon and Shussett's script was based on Cameron's (if anyone can find evidence of this I'd be curious to see it), and that Anderson's script borrowed only lightly from it. If that was the case, then the abandoned script for AvP by O'Bannon and Shussett was about humans finding that we are part of the xenomorph-predator lifecycle after finding an ancient pyramid in the arctic. Sounds a LOT like Prometheus to me -- and Ridley Scott participated in its development.

So, it's entirely possible that Alien vs. Predator is actually a ripoff of Prometheus, since both Prometheus and Alien vs. Predator are both based on a pre-existing script that Ridley Scott was going to direct.

Also, I suspect that Cameron's script was based partly on Anderson's old pitch. Just a hunch. (Alien movies frequently borrowed from the dozens of rejected scripts in the pile.)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446714/board/flat/204280628?d=latest&t=20120909000448#latest


I donít think there was ever a script written by Cameron for Alien 5 (probably just a treatment) and I think Dan O Bannon and Shussett were only credited on AvP as some of the stuff used was based on the original Alien script (pyramid)Ö.but maybe there was this Alien 5 treatment floating about that contained elements of the original Dan O Bannon Alien script which was adapted by PWSA for AvP (but setting it on earth) which was then adapted for the Alien prequel (pyramid, bringing on board a severed alien head) which became Prometheus? In that way AvP could have been a rip off Prometheus (not vice versa)

< Message edited by jackcarter -- 9/9/2012 11:47:02 AM >
Post #: 54
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 9/9/2012 11:22:13 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
There was no Alien 5 script written by those guys.

As for the O'Bannon comments, they were made in jest due to the fact the series has been destroyed by sequels.

Cameron and Scott had discussed the Alien series, but that is all it was. There had been a few shots at a AVP script over the years. Anderson came in with some ideas which came from Alien (the eggs in the temple) which and use of the Alien required O'Bannon and Shussett to be named as writers, even if they didn't do anything.

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Post #: 55
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 9/9/2012 12:19:10 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
true but i wonder what Cameron had in mind for A5 - he seemed to be collaborating with Scott (who wanted to return to the Space Jockey) http://celluloidandcigaretteburns.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/james-cameron-wanted-to-direct-alien-5.html

so maybe a treatment like Prometheus was bashed out with space jockeys, black goo, mankind origins etc except set post A4 and with xenos/facehuggers, Ripley8 and Arnold (maybe a descendant of Dutch?), elements that would go on to be used in AvP (Predators instead of engineers shaping humanity, set present day on earth instead of the future on an alien planet) before Fox had it adapted for a full on Alien prequel by Jon Spaihts (described as 70% Alien 30% mankind origins), which was then evolved into Prometheus by Lindlelof/Scott (30% Alien 70% mankind origins)

It could be a reason why it was an almost beat for beat remake. Its strange that it was so similar to AvP in places - almost too much of a coincidence.

< Message edited by jackcarter -- 10/9/2012 8:40:32 AM >

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Post #: 56
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/10/2012 2:41:47 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: jackcarter

there was also the question of if Blade Runner would be somehow incorperated into the Alien-verse. again the TED talk sort of cleared that up - no replicants in 2023...no OW colonies...no mention of Tyrell = not connected

still that wont stop something like this happening eventually (or BR v P):
http://deankotz.deviantart.com/art/Aliens-VS-Blade-Runner-286951332


to quote Lex Luther - WROOOOONG!
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/58939

< Message edited by jackcarter -- 10/10/2012 2:42:24 PM >

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Post #: 57
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/10/2012 2:53:41 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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@JackCarter

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/prometheus-blade-runner-connection/9861
quote:


ďThat was me having fun and being cutesy,Ē said a laughing Charles de Lauzirika when asked about the connection. ďI wrote all that stuff. I actually said this at the press conference they had in London, which is that if itís in the film, itís canon. I would argue that the viral pieces that are included in the Peter Weyland Files are canon just because they originated with Ridley and Damon Lindelof. I would say those, to some degree, are canon. But anything else Ė especially these which are kind of like little cute, embedded text graphics on the menus Ė I wouldnít take those too seriously. Itís just meant to be an in-universe framework for those viral pieces.Ē

ďAs a Blade Runner fan, and because thereís been so much talk before this even occurred with people on the Internet speculating that maybe Alien and Blade Runner and Prometheus could all exist in the same universe, it was just more of a wink at that. Absolutely nothing to be taken seriously. I mean, I sent it to Ridley and he had no comment. (Laughs) So, itís just icing on top of icing. Itís not the cake. Itís a fun, little side thing thatís very superficial. And, by the way, it in no way officially establishes that itís Blade Runner because, if a lawyer were to comb through that, thereís no reference to Tyrell or anything in Blade Runner. Itís just a very lightly intentioned joke.Ē

Thank F*ck.

< Message edited by OPEN YOUR EYES -- 10/10/2012 2:54:14 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/10/2012 3:36:30 PM   
jackcarter


Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/1/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES


@JackCarter

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/prometheus-blade-runner-connection/9861
quote:


ďThat was me having fun and being cutesy,Ē said a laughing Charles de Lauzirika when asked about the connection. ďI wrote all that stuff. I actually said this at the press conference they had in London, which is that if itís in the film, itís canon. I would argue that the viral pieces that are included in the Peter Weyland Files are canon just because they originated with Ridley and Damon Lindelof. I would say those, to some degree, are canon. But anything else Ė especially these which are kind of like little cute, embedded text graphics on the menus Ė I wouldnít take those too seriously. Itís just meant to be an in-universe framework for those viral pieces.Ē

ďAs a Blade Runner fan, and because thereís been so much talk before this even occurred with people on the Internet speculating that maybe Alien and Blade Runner and Prometheus could all exist in the same universe, it was just more of a wink at that. Absolutely nothing to be taken seriously. I mean, I sent it to Ridley and he had no comment. (Laughs) So, itís just icing on top of icing. Itís not the cake. Itís a fun, little side thing thatís very superficial. And, by the way, it in no way officially establishes that itís Blade Runner because, if a lawyer were to comb through that, thereís no reference to Tyrell or anything in Blade Runner. Itís just a very lightly intentioned joke.Ē

Thank F*ck.


Tyrell Corp does make an onscreen apperence in Aliens though

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Post #: 59
RE: so did Prometheus retcon AvP or not? - 10/10/2012 4:10:18 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

Posts: 4380
Joined: 5/2/2012
@JackCarter

Pfftt!,Aliens.Who cares about Aliens.

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