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RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 10:08:43 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 15/6/2014 10:12:06 AM >


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Post #: 181
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 12:58:11 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 184
Joined: 29/2/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: Donnie Murdo


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

Still, it seems they just want to criticise anyone who takes the opposite view with Salmond's aide getting in on the act:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10891229/Alex-Salmonds-office-implicated-in-smear-attack-on-mother-who-spoke-up-for-the-Union.html


Sigh. The "smear" here is pointing out the fact that the "non-politician, ordinary mum" in fact sits as an advisor in the Labour shadow cabinet. There's nothing particularly offensive about stating facts.


I was going to reply, but Sanchia beat me to it. If you are going to state 'facts' you really need to make sure they are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.


This. And she has also 'advised' Salmond on disability and carers issues too. There has been some nasty comments from both sides of the campaign so far, but the recent behaviour of the Cybernats has IMO crossed the line. According to one, Ms Lally is now a 'collaborator'. wtf?


< Message edited by MrsFinkelstein -- 15/6/2014 12:59:03 PM >

(in reply to Donnie Murdo)
Post #: 182
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 3:56:11 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
Salmond had apparently even visited her house. But the SNP and their ilk wanted the press to do their dirty work and keep their hands clean of attacking the woman - not an unknown tactic from them. That Salmond has not sacked his advisor, even paid lip service, puts the SNP at a lower moral standing than pretty much all other parties. Even May's spad went out the door the other week, for something much lesser.

Out of interest though, is that what the nationalists are trying to pretend happened rather than what actually happened to make themselves look better?

< Message edited by elab49 -- 15/6/2014 3:59:18 PM >


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 183
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 4:01:18 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

quote:

ORIGINAL: Donnie Murdo


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

Still, it seems they just want to criticise anyone who takes the opposite view with Salmond's aide getting in on the act:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10891229/Alex-Salmonds-office-implicated-in-smear-attack-on-mother-who-spoke-up-for-the-Union.html


Sigh. The "smear" here is pointing out the fact that the "non-politician, ordinary mum" in fact sits as an advisor in the Labour shadow cabinet. There's nothing particularly offensive about stating facts.


I was going to reply, but Sanchia beat me to it. If you are going to state 'facts' you really need to make sure they are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.


This. And she has also 'advised' Salmond on disability and carers issues too. There has been some nasty comments from both sides of the campaign so far, but the recent behaviour of the Cybernats has IMO crossed the line. According to one, Ms Lally is now a 'collaborator'. wtf?



Guardian printed a letter that said Rowling doesn't understand because she's only English (replace that with many other terms and you see the problem) and Scots supporting the union are knaves and traitors (ie one step away from the being put up against the wall nonsense). Worried that they didn't see the issue with the letter - it isn't the same as balancing the argument, it's showing the worrying attitude some of the secessionists have (ie we're proper Scots unlike you lot).

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 184
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 5:30:13 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
The thing I am finding is disturbing is the wave of anti English/anti Scottish language which this is stirring up and in some respects being encouraged. It appears to be stronger in Scotland at this time due to it being more of a focussed issue there at the moment but some of what I have seen being said would be deemed hate speech elsewhere and that is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If there is a No vote does this potentially mean bombs on the street from secessionists who have had hatred inspired? If there is a Yes vote will there be hatred and refusal to work with the Scottish etc. as a result? It is deliberately stirring up such issues for gain on one side or the other rather than stirring reasoned debate and that is entirely wrong.

An example, 5% of those complaining of racist attacks in Scotland in 2013 were English up from 2% the year before. English born school children in Scotland have also shown a marked increase in bullying reports in Scottish schools and vice versa there has been a reported increase in Scottish born children bullied in English schools.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 15/6/2014 5:34:42 PM >


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Post #: 185
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 9:15:00 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 184
Joined: 29/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

The thing I am finding is disturbing is the wave of anti English/anti Scottish language which this is stirring up and in some respects being encouraged. It appears to be stronger in Scotland at this time due to it being more of a focussed issue there at the moment but some of what I have seen being said would be deemed hate speech elsewhere and that is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If there is a No vote does this potentially mean bombs on the street from secessionists who have had hatred inspired? If there is a Yes vote will there be hatred and refusal to work with the Scottish etc. as a result? It is deliberately stirring up such issues for gain on one side or the other rather than stirring reasoned debate and that is entirely wrong.

An example, 5% of those complaining of racist attacks in Scotland in 2013 were English up from 2% the year before. English born school children in Scotland have also shown a marked increase in bullying reports in Scottish schools and vice versa there has been a reported increase in Scottish born children bullied in English schools.


I found this in the Scotsman and thought it raised some interesting points.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/hardship-alert-1-3438203

Although the letter speaks about the very high level of taxation in Norway it doesn't mention that the average wage is much higher, which will compensate. (Though I do think in an iScotland taxes will have to go up to afford it all, wages won't rise as fast, if at all).

The comment that stuck out most to me was "Finally, if an independent Scotland succeeds it will be because it is totally united. When Norway wanted independence 99.5 per cent of the population voted Yes." Currently, we are anything but united and I can only see it getting more bitter come September.

We need to get this campaign up from the level of the playground and debate all the issues in a mature manner. So far, all the campaign seems to have achieved is more bitterness and division.


(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 186
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 9:55:36 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
And reading the comments below that article it pretty much sums up the poor attitude to the whole process. Someone classing Norway as "an uncivilised Reindeer eating country, unlike Scotland" (ignoring that Norway is being held as an example of what Scotland could be) and going on the attack and claiming bias from the author ignoring that the article is simply stating it took long decades before Norway reached where it was now and Scotland may well be the same if they do become independent. Where is the honest debate and answers which are so sorely needed for informed choice?

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Post #: 187
RE: Scottish independence debate - 5/8/2014 11:10:45 PM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4329
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: My House
What a load of nonsense. What should have been an informative and interesting discourse was intead a lot of posturing, rhetoric, obsfucation and straight up, blatant refusal to answer direct questions. Shouldn't really be surprised I suppose. I certainly haven't had my mind changed by anything either of these numpties had to say

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Post #: 188
RE: Scottish independence debate - 6/8/2014 7:03:11 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I think you have probably summed up the whole thing there. Both sides obfuscating and telling manipulations, wishlists or lies. The snap poll appears to have Darling "winning" by 56% to 44%, primarily because Salmond was pretty much destroyed on questions over future currency, but at the end of the day no matter which way this goes there is going to be division and hatred for years to come which makes everyone a loser.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/8/2014 7:05:31 AM >


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Post #: 189
RE: Scottish independence debate - 6/8/2014 11:15:45 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
Looking online I think some may have missed a couple of the most telling and scary pts last night - which are facts, and which the Yes lot dont' (can't) dispute but just pretend aren't the case - the Scottish tax base will fall, the proportion of elderly/infirm is higher. Pensions are a scarier issue than they care to admit as a result - they'll soar without the payers increasing to meet demand creating a deficit.

Not to mention it's likely we'd have to take on significant debt at start-up (if anyone is in any doubt the SNP are fudging discussion on that as well just look at the discussions post-devolution when there was shit-stirring at Westminister over the scale of the costs increase in Scotland - but it's exactly what happens when you create departments from scratch to duplicate existing departments in national government - the ongoing costs of this for a seceeded Scotland would be horrendous (and frankly unaffordable).

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 190
RE: Scottish independence debate - 11/8/2014 9:17:30 PM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17325
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon
To be honest my knowledge on this particular debate is fairly limited so I think it would be unfair to have too much of an opinion but I can understand both sides of this argument.

Really, I came here to say this. Is there any possible chance we could get some of those big lads from the Highlands Games to kick the crap out of Piers Morgan* whilst wearing kilts and preferably playing the bagpipes? I'd pay to see that. Fuck it, I'd appeal directly for your independence myself just to see that!

*We can now add the Scottish to the growing list of people who can't stand this cunt.

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Post #: 191
RE: Scottish independence debate - 11/8/2014 9:37:16 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12174
Joined: 30/9/2005
Here's my understanding of what's going on recently:

"We're keeping the poond."

"Um, no you're not."

"Yes we are, we're keeping the poond. It's Scootlands poond."

"No you're not- wait, what? It's not your pound, it's got our bloody Queen on it!"

"Everyone, we're keeping the poond. Talk oover, moving on."

"No wait, NOT fucking moving on. It's not your decision to make-"

"We have oil, and shortbread, and FREEEEDOM!"

"..."

(in reply to Goodfella)
Post #: 192
RE: Scottish independence debate - 25/8/2014 9:00:07 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
So Salmond has essentially just said that Scotland will not be taking on any of the national debt in the event of independence even though they will keep using the pound. Interesting. It appears that he is once again making promises he cannot keep as the amount of debt (although what percentage is debatable at this time) it appears will be legally laid against an independent Scotland and if they refuse to take it it will be deemed a default which is an automatic black mark against Scotland's economic future. It appears cheques are being written verbally by Mr Salmond again which he cannot cover. This debate is essentially an example of obfuscation rather than anything else.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 25/8/2014 9:02:59 PM >


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Post #: 193
RE: Scottish independence debate - 25/8/2014 9:36:36 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12174
Joined: 30/9/2005
This chairman is awful...

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 194
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/8/2014 6:30:41 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I have to admit I could only stand watching about 15 minute of it but I agree the chariman had no control and they just ran wild. I don't really know how Salmond is deemed to have won with so high a margin as they both were awful in the debate but Salmond from the bit I saw was terrible. Maybe he picked up in other sections?

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Post #: 195
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/8/2014 7:01:20 PM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4329
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: My House
I only managed about 20 minutes of that farce last night. Glen Campbell had no control and was too busy sticking his own oar in instead of actually moderating. STV's Bernard Ponsonby was much better. Total waste of time.

< Message edited by Scruffybobby -- 26/8/2014 7:03:15 PM >


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(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 196
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/8/2014 7:20:30 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18195
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I found it patently ridiculous when he was pushed Darling to give proposals for an alternative to keeping the pound. Why are you asking the person who is about people voting no to give information and proposals which would potentially lead to people voting yes? He was farcical as a chairman.

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Post #: 197
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/8/2014 10:10:48 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 184
Joined: 29/2/2012
I didn't watch either of the debates. The first one I was on holiday in France, and unfortunately that wasn't the case for last nights - by the time I got home from work it had already started and I couldn't face it. I would have put something through my tv and I can't afford another one just now.

I followed the live blog in the Guardian. It sounded awful.

Only consolation is that although Salmond was deemed to have won the debate, most of the reaction today seems to be it has energised the yes campaign, but doesn't seem to have affected any undecided voters. Most comments are along the line of "would have been better off watching Jeremy Kyle".

I just want this over with now, it feels like it has been going on forever and I'm fed up with the shouting/scare stories.

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 198
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