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RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 10:08:43 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18135
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 15/6/2014 10:12:06 AM >


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Post #: 181
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 12:58:11 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 183
Joined: 29/2/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: Donnie Murdo


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

Still, it seems they just want to criticise anyone who takes the opposite view with Salmond's aide getting in on the act:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10891229/Alex-Salmonds-office-implicated-in-smear-attack-on-mother-who-spoke-up-for-the-Union.html


Sigh. The "smear" here is pointing out the fact that the "non-politician, ordinary mum" in fact sits as an advisor in the Labour shadow cabinet. There's nothing particularly offensive about stating facts.


I was going to reply, but Sanchia beat me to it. If you are going to state 'facts' you really need to make sure they are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.


This. And she has also 'advised' Salmond on disability and carers issues too. There has been some nasty comments from both sides of the campaign so far, but the recent behaviour of the Cybernats has IMO crossed the line. According to one, Ms Lally is now a 'collaborator'. wtf?


< Message edited by MrsFinkelstein -- 15/6/2014 12:59:03 PM >

(in reply to Donnie Murdo)
Post #: 182
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 3:56:11 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
Salmond had apparently even visited her house. But the SNP and their ilk wanted the press to do their dirty work and keep their hands clean of attacking the woman - not an unknown tactic from them. That Salmond has not sacked his advisor, even paid lip service, puts the SNP at a lower moral standing than pretty much all other parties. Even May's spad went out the door the other week, for something much lesser.

Out of interest though, is that what the nationalists are trying to pretend happened rather than what actually happened to make themselves look better?

< Message edited by elab49 -- 15/6/2014 3:59:18 PM >


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 183
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 4:01:18 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

quote:

ORIGINAL: Donnie Murdo


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

Still, it seems they just want to criticise anyone who takes the opposite view with Salmond's aide getting in on the act:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10891229/Alex-Salmonds-office-implicated-in-smear-attack-on-mother-who-spoke-up-for-the-Union.html


Sigh. The "smear" here is pointing out the fact that the "non-politician, ordinary mum" in fact sits as an advisor in the Labour shadow cabinet. There's nothing particularly offensive about stating facts.


I was going to reply, but Sanchia beat me to it. If you are going to state 'facts' you really need to make sure they are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Wasn't the smear the claim from the SNP individual that she was the daughter in law of a Labour Peer when she was not and within that claim is the implication she was not a single mother and was married to the son of the Provost? I believe he was emailing various news outlets to this effect? Also the behaviour of the so called Cybernats is devolving into something akin to troll behaviour and is in some cases truly offensive (death threats being some of the actions which appear to be occurring) and if there is a proven direct link to the SNP then it could indeed be deemed to be a worrying.


This. And she has also 'advised' Salmond on disability and carers issues too. There has been some nasty comments from both sides of the campaign so far, but the recent behaviour of the Cybernats has IMO crossed the line. According to one, Ms Lally is now a 'collaborator'. wtf?



Guardian printed a letter that said Rowling doesn't understand because she's only English (replace that with many other terms and you see the problem) and Scots supporting the union are knaves and traitors (ie one step away from the being put up against the wall nonsense). Worried that they didn't see the issue with the letter - it isn't the same as balancing the argument, it's showing the worrying attitude some of the secessionists have (ie we're proper Scots unlike you lot).

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 184
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 5:30:13 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18135
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
The thing I am finding is disturbing is the wave of anti English/anti Scottish language which this is stirring up and in some respects being encouraged. It appears to be stronger in Scotland at this time due to it being more of a focussed issue there at the moment but some of what I have seen being said would be deemed hate speech elsewhere and that is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If there is a No vote does this potentially mean bombs on the street from secessionists who have had hatred inspired? If there is a Yes vote will there be hatred and refusal to work with the Scottish etc. as a result? It is deliberately stirring up such issues for gain on one side or the other rather than stirring reasoned debate and that is entirely wrong.

An example, 5% of those complaining of racist attacks in Scotland in 2013 were English up from 2% the year before. English born school children in Scotland have also shown a marked increase in bullying reports in Scottish schools and vice versa there has been a reported increase in Scottish born children bullied in English schools.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 15/6/2014 5:34:42 PM >


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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 185
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 9:15:00 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 183
Joined: 29/2/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

The thing I am finding is disturbing is the wave of anti English/anti Scottish language which this is stirring up and in some respects being encouraged. It appears to be stronger in Scotland at this time due to it being more of a focussed issue there at the moment but some of what I have seen being said would be deemed hate speech elsewhere and that is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If there is a No vote does this potentially mean bombs on the street from secessionists who have had hatred inspired? If there is a Yes vote will there be hatred and refusal to work with the Scottish etc. as a result? It is deliberately stirring up such issues for gain on one side or the other rather than stirring reasoned debate and that is entirely wrong.

An example, 5% of those complaining of racist attacks in Scotland in 2013 were English up from 2% the year before. English born school children in Scotland have also shown a marked increase in bullying reports in Scottish schools and vice versa there has been a reported increase in Scottish born children bullied in English schools.


I found this in the Scotsman and thought it raised some interesting points.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/hardship-alert-1-3438203

Although the letter speaks about the very high level of taxation in Norway it doesn't mention that the average wage is much higher, which will compensate. (Though I do think in an iScotland taxes will have to go up to afford it all, wages won't rise as fast, if at all).

The comment that stuck out most to me was "Finally, if an independent Scotland succeeds it will be because it is totally united. When Norway wanted independence 99.5 per cent of the population voted Yes." Currently, we are anything but united and I can only see it getting more bitter come September.

We need to get this campaign up from the level of the playground and debate all the issues in a mature manner. So far, all the campaign seems to have achieved is more bitterness and division.


(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 186
RE: Scottish independence debate - 15/6/2014 9:55:36 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18135
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
And reading the comments below that article it pretty much sums up the poor attitude to the whole process. Someone classing Norway as "an uncivilised Reindeer eating country, unlike Scotland" (ignoring that Norway is being held as an example of what Scotland could be) and going on the attack and claiming bias from the author ignoring that the article is simply stating it took long decades before Norway reached where it was now and Scotland may well be the same if they do become independent. Where is the honest debate and answers which are so sorely needed for informed choice?

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(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 187
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