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RE: Scottish independence debate - 14/2/2013 7:21:43 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 184
Joined: 29/2/2012
Did anyone else see the party political broadcast by the SNP at the end of the scottish news tonight??? I did, and my immediate reaction was .........WTF????????

Basically lots of people walking about carrying boxes from one room to another to the tune of 'Lets Stick Together', then the word FORWARD.

Was it being ironic?

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 91
RE: Scottish independence debate - 14/2/2013 7:53:08 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
Apparently the SNP have been crying at Westminster and gotten their demand pandered to so the word 'separate' (a pejorative apparently) has to be removed from the discussions.


_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 92
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 8:36:02 PM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4329
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: My House
So I've downloaded the white paper and am going to have a good read through. So far 'Eck has failed to come out with anything like a convincing argument. I'm not expecting that to change but I'm prepared to be surprised.

_____________________________

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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 93
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 8:46:11 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
What they've produced is an uncosted wishlist/manifesto - not a case for Independence, particularly economic. The 2016-17 projections are particularly interesting because they're arguing deficit rates (and that's without all the pie in the sky con the voters rubbish) and it depends on oil (with revenue based not on independent figures but the Governments own). Which is utter bollocks in terms of reliability and persuasiveness.

We all know current policies given with one hand and take with the other - council tax freeze/disappearing council tax services. Free tuition/disappearing student support. And some of their ideas? They already have powers for but already know they can't afford them.

This was not the paper we needed IMO. It needed something SNP free and this is not it. It's too important for King Eck to flash his ego all over.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Scruffybobby)
Post #: 94
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 8:59:59 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18201
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Essentially that does appear to be what the critique is so far. The SNP have been putting off explaining anything by claiming "it will be in the white paper" but the white paper is hollow in that it does not have the costings or how they propose to pay for what is essentially a massively expensive wishlist of "promises". Without the costing it is nothing at all and they cannot ride on the whole "oil revenue will pay for everything" pipe dream which they have been riding on as unless they provide actual numbers and figures they are providing nothing.

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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 95
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 9:10:36 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
The child care thing is particularly worrying - a new focus that is aimed at wavering votes? That's a manifesto - short term, headline grabbing, shallow.

And still uncosted.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 96
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 9:11:30 PM   
MrsFinkelstein


Posts: 184
Joined: 29/2/2012
I kept getting images when Salmond and Sturgeon were announcing it of being a kid again and getting bribed with lots of sweeties to behave. "If you vote yes we'll given you this, and this, and this, and this, and this!!"

It's very idealistic and sounds like a lovely country to live in, but not in anyway realistic. Where is all the money to pay for this going to come from?

(I have had a post on FB by a pro-independence ex-work colleague - it basically involved lots of !!!!!!!!! with random "better future for our kids"......."we pay in more than we take out"........"in charge of our own futures"..........."rich Eton boys in charge"........"south-east benefits from our money".........with more of this !!!!!!!!!!!!........yadda yadda yadda)

< Message edited by MrsFinkelstein -- 26/11/2013 9:25:31 PM >

(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 97
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 9:19:42 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18201
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Apparently there are questions over whether Scotland could actually afford the removal of Trident as apparently it would cost billions and Scotland would be expected to pay the lions share. There are claims from the SNP that they would not bear the cost but Westminster apparently has agreements in place whereby if this came to pass the cost would come from the renegotiation of funds Scotland would receive if independence was voted for and the SNP are apparently aware of this. Also Salmond has been warned by senior NATO officials that if they do remove Trident then they shall not be allowed to join NATO, which is a part of the white paper promise, so something really does not add up here.

quote:

The blow to the First Ministerís hopes came at a secret meeting between Scottish Government officials and Nato officials at their headquarters in Brussels within the last few weeks.

The Holyrood delegation was told that no new member would be allowed to join if it had unresolved military or territorial disputes with other countries.

This response was seen as being a clear warning that the SNP administrationís pledge to remove Trident would be an obstacle to an independent Scotlandís membership.


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Post #: 98
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 9:32:27 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

I kept getting images when Salmond and Sturgeon were announcing it of being a kid again and getting bribed with lots of sweeties to behave. "If you vote yes we'll given you this, and this, and this, and this, and this!!"

It's very idealistic and sounds like a lovely country to live in, but not in anyway realistic. Where is all the money to pay for this going to come from?

(I have had a post on FB by a pro-independence ex-work colleague - it basically involved lots of !!!!!!!!! with random "better future for our kids"......."we pay in more than we take out"........"in charge of our own futures"..........."rich Eton boys in charge"........"south-east benefits from our money".........with more of this !!!!!!!!!!!!........yadda yadda yadda)


Dear heavens

And apparently the contribution thing is very cleverly chosen at 2011, and doesn't reflect current national support. How on earth did people actually start believing we were fantastically wealthy and being robbed? The people who go on about Westminster as if we're a colony and not fully and democratically represented is a nonsense. Last time that started I asked how they'd feel if Glasgow then tried to split off for some spurious non-representation reasons because the SNP clearly hate the West of Scotland

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to MrsFinkelstein)
Post #: 99
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 9:39:44 PM   
galvatron


Posts: 1279
Joined: 1/10/2005
It'll never get passed... no matter what the SNP can come up with the combined power of Tory/Labour/Lib Dem spin will out match them. Whether Scotland could survive on its own or not is immaterial, though the evidence for that looks contentious at best. They don't have the media backing to win any referendum.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 100
RE: Scottish independence debate - 26/11/2013 10:21:06 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
Apparently the paper on the back up - more powers - should have been out by now though. And that seems to have disappeared.

What is the turnout requirement for this? I'm blanking on whether there even is one at the moment

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to galvatron)
Post #: 101
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 2:16:11 PM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4329
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: My House
I'm at question 82 of the 650 odd and the answer contains a glaring error (also given as the answer to q39). It says that under the FSCS personal savings will be protected to a minimum of £85000. That's the maximum your savings would be protected to with any banking group (as opposed to individual banks). Pretty poor show.

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Post #: 102
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 2:17:23 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005

Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.


< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 27/11/2013 2:20:41 PM >


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All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 103
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 7:21:22 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18201
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
It seems like an incredibly poorly thought out piece which relies upon many proven falsehoods. The frightening thing is that even though the actual institutions mentioned such as the EU have actually come out previously to state the opposite of the SNP claims (the EU have stated that Scotland would need to reapply to join the EU which Salmond keeps claiming they will not and in that I tend to believe the actual institution in that instance) the supporters of independence seem to ignore this and keep claiming the falsehoods propagated by Salmond are true. I could understand if there was some argument over the claims but when it has outright been stated that they are not true then it doesn't make sense.

quote:

Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission (EC), said that any new nation state will have to apply for membership under international law.


How much clearer can it be? Also Spain most definitely would vote against Scotland joining the EU if they became independant as it would set a dangerous precedent for their own regions which are seeking such.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 27/11/2013 7:24:31 PM >


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Post #: 104
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 7:30:07 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.



Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 105
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 7:33:11 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005
Same goes for joinig the EU but not taking the Euro, how are they going to get out of that?
There are also the subsidies from Europe that Britain enjoys, there is an an assumption that Scotland will simpy take on those too.
Why would Europe agree to that when they are constantly trying to remove it from Britain?

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 106
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 7:33:43 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8256
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.



Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


A Yougov poll showed that the majority of people in England and Wales would vote to keep Scotland in the Union. When asked the question "Should Scotland be an independent country?" 55% said No, 22% said Yes and the rest either didn't know or wouldn't vote.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 107
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 7:40:38 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 27/11/2013 7:43:46 PM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 108
RE: Scottish independence debate - 27/11/2013 9:38:48 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.


So you want it to succeed because you know it'll fail and it'll amuse you to see 5 million Britons completely fucked over? Not really getting the humour in that tbh.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 109
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 8:40:16 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.


So you want it to succeed because you know it'll fail and it'll amuse you to see 5 million Britons completely fucked over? Not really getting the humour in that tbh.

If there's that much underlying hate in the national consciousness against another member of the British Isles that a none descript folk song, written only 50 years ago, becomes the unofficial national anthem then I think the humour is valid. Anyway , you wouldn't be fucked over, it would be the land of milk and honey, just ask Alex.


< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 28/11/2013 9:54:35 AM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 110
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 11:14:57 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
As opposed to an official national anthem that used to have an anti-Scots verse?

What an odd argument to make.

_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 111
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 11:35:14 AM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

As opposed to an official national anthem that used to have an anti-Scots verse?

What an odd argument to make.

Kind of answered it yourself.

_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 112
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 12:38:11 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.

_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 113
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 1:03:18 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8059
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 114
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 4:18:53 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 3972
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.




You'd be surprised. It really splits the nation - much like this upcoming clusterfuck of agenda setting by both sides.

Personally, I'm someone who leans towards the idea of independence for a fairly simple, yet extremely compelling reason (for me anyway). I am however not naive to assume that the transition would be anything less than traumatic and deeply uncertain (economically, constitutionally etc) - something which the SNP and this so called white paper refuses to acknowledge. It's a list of hopes and dreams, not a blueprint for a plan of action. Alas, it will not convert the sceptics, which is a pity.





_____________________________

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1. Zero Dark Thirty
2. No
3. A Hijacking
4. Behind the Candelabra
5. In The Fog
6. Good Vibrations
7. McCullin
8. Beyond the Hills
9. The Place Beyond the Pines
10. Wreck-it Ralph

(in reply to Flatulent_Bob)
Post #: 115
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 4:23:07 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54589
Joined: 1/10/2005
I think that's exactly the point. There are many who deeply wish independence but are not party political and, IMO, this fails them completely. It's not the blueprint they can take to those opposed to argue the concept.

The SNP have stiffed this badly. Too much in there that's to easy a target.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

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Post #: 116
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 5:38:40 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.



I am 37 and I couldn't sing anything of that song passed the first line.

All this talk of national anthems reminds me of this- click

< Message edited by Shifty Bench -- 28/11/2013 5:41:15 PM >


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Post #: 117
RE: Scottish independence debate - 28/11/2013 6:41:39 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 3972
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench


All this talk of national anthems reminds me of this- click


Love that sketch...and that whole performance - despite the horrendous cackling from one deranged audience member in the first twenty minutes.

Speaking of youtube videos, perhaps the SNP can utilise this as a case for separation?

_____________________________

Qwerty's Top 10 of 2013 (so far)

1. Zero Dark Thirty
2. No
3. A Hijacking
4. Behind the Candelabra
5. In The Fog
6. Good Vibrations
7. McCullin
8. Beyond the Hills
9. The Place Beyond the Pines
10. Wreck-it Ralph

(in reply to Shifty Bench)
Post #: 118
RE: Scottish independence debate - 29/11/2013 2:31:39 AM   
demoncleaner


Posts: 2389
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast
I'll only give my two cents because I got involved in a facebook discussion about this.

But I want to say this...

I'm from South Armagh, I'm a Nationalist...only by birth...and I must be unique in that I don't want a united Ireland. I grew up thinking that the Brits were to be hated. And then I went to America and found their working class to be racist, bigot scum. And when I got home I realised the great moral restituition in the Britishness of Dickens, Shakespeare, Monty Python, Blackadder, Doctor Who, Gary Oldman, Mike Leigh, Jon Ronson, The National Theatre...that sense of being British. And I want to be part of that idea of Britishness.

I was brought up to be anti Brit...but I'm very anti-American...but that's a different story.

The point is, I discovered Noam Chomsky and Socialism and "we're all in this together" syndrome this year. I don't like the idea of Scottish independence when one of its defining things is courting Capitalism, and getting into the bed with big business as the expense you pay for national pride and a stab at pageantry.

Northern Ireland nationalists have got over this idea of pride. It's caused a lot of hassle here. The union is stronger together...and I do mean a Federal Europe under a social democratic veneer. It's the only way we can, together, (Europe) take down the abject insanity of a US-led faith in a free-market.

Anyway. I'm not educated about the issue. But this is just a post-card warning about the romantic trappings of nationalism...

....been there. Bought the T-shirt. Anything for a quite life. That's modern-day Northern Ireland.


< Message edited by demoncleaner -- 29/11/2013 2:38:33 AM >

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Post #: 119
RE: Scottish independence debate - 29/11/2013 3:11:48 AM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
I'm Scottish and I was brought up to treat people the way I want to be treated myself. I have never hated the English, I have never had any reason to. I have read and heard a lot of English people say 'let them go, who needs them' as though every single one of us wants Independence. It's bullshit. I know a lot of Scots who absolutely hate the idea and a lot of those who want it just don't bloody understand it. There is dislike on both sides, I get that, I don't like it but I get it but I think Independence would be a bad idea for everyone in the UK, not just us.

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