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Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best

 
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Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 10:56:33 AM   
st3veebee


Posts: 2353
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Any bands/musicians out there that (while perhaps succesful to an extent..or not) just aren't considered amongst the best of all time? These come to mind for me, my favourite bands that rival anyone in my mind:


Soundgarden:

Yes they were big enough in the 90's when grunge was a la mode, and are now reuinted and sounding great. They had very successful songs and albums and never reached a poor "in it for the money" stage of musical output.

However, in my mind anyway, they should go down in history alongside the cest of the best. Each musician is incredibly talented:

-Kim Thayil has a phenomonally unique sound and can shred a guitar like nobodies business. (Like Suicide solo)

-Matt Cameron is the greatest drummer of the last 25 years without question. His signature ghost notes never fail to impress me. (Jesus Christ pose is my favourite drumtrack ever)

-Ben Shephard: Very underrated bassist (Slaves and Bulldozers)

-and of course the immortal Chris Cornell. Easily my favourite vocalist of all time. So unique, so passionate and so bloody powerful. Honestly: can anyone hit those high notes with such power as him? Goose-bumps every single time.

(Beyond the Wheel, Jesus Christ Pose.sod it..basically every song)

Favourite Songs:

1. Jesus Christ Pose
2. Hands all over
3. Outshined

Also on a side note: Temple of the Dog: could be my favourite album ever.


Jethro Tull

Again they had their success back in the day (still going too) but be honest: most people think of them as a laughable folk band, with a stalk of wheat coming out of their mouth and striking funny poses with a flute.

They really aren't. I have always liked JT but only recently have i listened to more than just the Best of. The range that band had was incredible and such talent in Jazz, folk, pure rock and Blues. I'd also put Ian up amongst the greatest frontment ever, even just for how weird he is while apparently never touching drugs.

Their later output was very hit and miss but they have an astonishing amount of brilliant to amazing songs. I also adore the upbeat nature that runs throughout their songs. Add that to a connection to Anchorman and I believe they should go down in History alongside Led Zepp and The Stones.


Top Songs:
1. The Whistler
2. Cross-Eyed Mary
3. Thick as a Brick



Rush

Thanks to films like I love you Man and other recent comedies Rush are back in the mindset of today: and it's a good thing too. Another successful band back in the early 70s and 80s with a colllection of songs that you will know or at the very least recognise. however when a conversation about musics elite comes up : they rarely feature.

Of the three bands mentioned here they are probably the most talented and are often cited as a musician's band. Great vocal, fantastic guiter work and of course the legend that is Neil Peart. The tidiest and most gifted drummer of the 70s and 80s.

One reason why they haven't reached the heights of other rock powerhouses is perhaps that they are just too damn honest and happy. Their songs are about freedom, the beauty of radio and even..well..trees. As corny as some of the subject matter is I always find myself with a huge smile beaming from ear to ear. Just try and listen to "Closer to the Heart" or "Spirit of the Radio" without feeling good about the world. Also when they wanted to rock the shit outta the place: they quite easily could (especially in the early days) with heavy riffs that even Black Sabbath would have sold their soul for: " Working Man"

Best of Rush:
1. Working Man
2. Closer to the Heart
3. Tom Sawyer

Anyway I'm sure that the people around these forums are quie aware of the genius of the mentioned above, and if not: you're welcome.


Anyone else feel the same about these or other bands that you feel are just as good as The Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Who, Bowie etc?



< Message edited by st3veebee -- 24/5/2012 2:05:47 PM >


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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 11:16:31 AM   
horribleives

 

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I loved Soundgarden but I think Chris Cornell's increasingly shite solo albums (as well as the mediocre Audioslave and the fact that post-Soundgarden he gradually started acting - and dressing - like a cunt) lost them a lot of good will over the years. The whole Guitar Hero tie-in/dreadful Avengers song hasn't done anything to dispel the notion their whole re-union is simply an attempt to get back on the bland, mainstream, FM rock ladder either, though if I got to see them live again and hear Mailman, Limo Wreck and Head Down one last time I frankly wouldn't care.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 24/5/2012 11:17:24 AM >


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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 11:22:58 AM   
st3veebee


Posts: 2353
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: 9303 Lyon Drive

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

I loved Soundgarden but I think Chris Cornell's increasingly shite solo albums (as well as the mediocre Audioslave and the fact that post-Soundgarden he gradually started acting - and dressing - like a cunt) lost them a lot of good will over the years. The whole Guitar Hero tie-in/dreadful Avengers song hasn't done anything to dispel the notion their whole re-union is simply an attempt to get back on the bland, mainstream, FM rock ladder either, though if I got to see them live again and hear Mailman, Limo Wreck and Head Down one last time I frankly wouldn't care.


The Timbaland album still makes me cringe and I never got into the first one post-Audioslave. However I do think that Euphoria Morning has some really good (if a little pop-y) songs.

But yes: nothing compared to the mighty Soundgarden.

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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 11:29:29 AM   
Spaldron


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Soundgarden and Rush get plenty of recognition though. I wouldn't really say they don't get enough credit, especially Rush who are always found on various "Greatest Rock Bands" lists.



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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 11:33:44 AM   
st3veebee


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From: 9303 Lyon Drive
I have never heard Soundgarden even near a best ever list. Rolling Stone (shocking magazine, I know) didn't even put Cornell in top Singers of all time as far as I can remember.

Rush on best bands ever lists? Really? You wouldn't have links to these lists would you?

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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 1:02:30 PM   
Swoz_MK


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I think those three bands actually get more credit than they actually deserve. And I like all of them.

I'll nominate Coven, Camel and Mr Bungle.

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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 1:14:42 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: st3veebee
Jethro Tull

Again they had their success back in the day (still going too) but be honest: most people think of them as a laughable folk band, with a stalk of wheat coming out of their mouth and striking funny poses with a flute.

They really aren't. I have always liked JT but only recently have i listened to more than just the Best of. The range that band had was incredible and such talent in Jazz, folk, pure rock and Blues. I'd also put Ian up amongst the greatest frontment ever, even just for how weird he is while apparently never touching drugs.

Their later output was very hit and miss but they have an astonishing amount of brilliant to amazing songs. I also adore the upbeat nature that runs throughout their songs. Add that to a connection to Anchorman and I believe they should go down in History alongside Led Zepp and The Stones.


Top Songs:
1. The Whistler
2. Cross-Eyed Mary
3. Thick as a Brick


I quite like Tull (although, in my opinion, they lost it MASSIVELY after A Passion Play, which is probably my favourite album of theirs). I can confirm (via a friend of a friend) that most of the band never did anything harder than cannabis, and they'd all largely given that up by the mid 70s. Shame that Anderson's voice went a long time ago and that he is, by all accounts, a massive c-word.

Interesting Tull fact - none other than the mighty John Bonham thought that Clive Bunker and Barriemore Barlow (Tull's first and second drummers, respectively) were the two best drummers on the planet.


EDIT - also, I would agree with Spaldron that Rush get tons of recognition still, just not necessarily in mainstream music media. Musically and critically they have never really had a "quiet" period (aside from Neil Peart's family tragedies, obviously). And Neil Peart is the punchline to a famous musician's joke, so.........

< Message edited by great_badir -- 24/5/2012 1:22:38 PM >


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RE: Rock Bands that don't get Enough Credit - 24/5/2012 2:04:53 PM   
st3veebee


Posts: 2353
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: 9303 Lyon Drive
I changed the title as it was a bit off putting. I meant bands that could well have decent recognition but should be alongside the best of the best right at the top.

By best of the best I mean the typical bands who are talked about in best of polls and never leave popularity. Beatles, Zeppelin, ACDC, Stones, Who, Bowie yadda yadda.

These bands were clearly succesful: even very much so at times, but as time progressed they just aren't thought of in the same light as the named above. Rush perhaps are better known then the other two though..

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 3:35:58 PM   
Invader_Ace


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Gotta say St3vee I think you have made 3 odd choices there.  I would say all 3 bands are pretty much known as up there, amoungst alternative types, "scene" or whathavyou.

I can see what your saying in a wider field, but do you really want that level recognition for your personal favourites?
I mean, it's pretty much meaningless when somesome says "I like The Beatles". 

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 3:40:30 PM   
st3veebee


Posts: 2353
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: 9303 Lyon Drive
I think I should have just made a thread about hese bands and said: Let's talk about how awesome these guy are"



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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 4:49:00 PM   
jonson


Posts: 9150
Joined: 30/9/2005
Just my quick tuppence worth, I'd agree with st3vee here.
I was a grunge kid. Everyone had Nirvana T-shirts. Or Mudhoney. Or Pearl Jam. Or Tad. While I Iike those bands, none of them can touch Soundgarden for the reasons stated above.
They are fantastically gifted musicians, incredible songwriters and added something different - clever songs, songs in 3/4, 7/8 and 5/4, thought provoking lyrics.
I don't think they got the credit they deserved to be honest. Most people would only remember Spoonman or Black Hole Sun, which is a shame as 90% of their catalogue is much, much better.

Slightly Off Topic. When the DJ at my wedding asked me what song we wanted for our first dance, I said "No idea mate, just stick some Soundgarden on"
He played Savage Garden, the twat.

< Message edited by jonson -- 24/5/2012 4:50:05 PM >


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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 7:54:44 PM   
Lucky Day


Posts: 852
Joined: 7/3/2012
From: Dundee
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

Just my quick tuppence worth, I'd agree with st3vee here.
I was a grunge kid. Everyone had Nirvana T-shirts. Or Mudhoney. Or Pearl Jam. Or Tad. While I Iike those bands, none of them can touch Soundgarden for the reasons stated above.
They are fantastically gifted musicians, incredible songwriters and added something different - clever songs, songs in 3/4, 7/8 and 5/4, thought provoking lyrics.
I don't think they got the credit they deserved to be honest. Most people would only remember Spoonman or Black Hole Sun, which is a shame as 90% of their catalogue is much, much better.

Slightly Off Topic. When the DJ at my wedding asked me what song we wanted for our first dance, I said "No idea mate, just stick some Soundgarden on"
He played Savage Garden, the twat.


I would have refused to pay the plonker (and I am a wedding DJ, there is really no excuse for this level of stupidity)

Bands who undoubtedly never got enough recognition, and by this I mean they should have taken over the world, would have to include......

Therapy? - Troublegum alone should have sealed it for them. I was at Ozzfest in Milton Keynes, I think it was 1998 or so. Korn pulled out of their 2nd highest up the bill slot and Therapy? filled in at the last minute. They received a shed load of abuse from forlorn, shoegazing, hate there mums, emo looking dreeps. Didn't stop them rocking the fuck out the place. Amazing.

Wildhearts - Possibly one of the most under rated British rock acts I can think of. PHUQ is a work of joy.

Dog Fashion Disco - Seen by many as a cheap Mr Bungle knock off, and whilst the influences are obvious, they have still had some outstanding moments.

Suicidal Tendencies - Without a shadow of a doubt the greatest thrash band of all time. Levels of musicianship and production way beyond what Metallica can muster and whilst I love Anthrax, Megadeth, Testament etc Suicidal always took it to the next level.

Infectious Grooves - Possibly my favourite band of all time (right now anyway) Don't believe me ? Check them out.

Winger - Derided by many, thanks to Hetfield having a pop and Beavis & Butthead taking the piss, but the musicianship is beyond belief, Reb Beach is an awesome guitarist and Kip Winger is another under rated frontman / songwriter.

Extreme - Again, much derided. Even if they didn't write awesome tunes (and they did) they would still be right up there on Nuno Bettencourts incredible guitar genius. More than words may be a little cheesy , doesn't stop me loving it.

Notable mention goes to Mr Big, Racer X, Jason "God" Becker.



< Message edited by Lucky Day -- 24/5/2012 10:18:53 PM >

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 8:28:03 PM   
boaby

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Wildhearts - Possibly one of the most under rated British rock acts I can think of. PHUQ is a work of joy.


The video for Vanilla Radio cracks me up. Midget Elvis.



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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 24/5/2012 10:23:04 PM   
Lucky Day


Posts: 852
Joined: 7/3/2012
From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Wildhearts - Possibly one of the most under rated British rock acts I can think of. PHUQ is a work of joy.


The video for Vanilla Radio cracks me up. Midget Elvis.




I Wanna Go Where the People Go. Possibly the only top 40 uk hit single to contain the word Cunt ?? I might be wrong.

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Post #: 14
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 1:11:45 AM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Therapy? - Troublegum alone should have sealed it for them. I was at Ozzfest in Milton Keynes, I think it was 1998 or so. Korn pulled out of their 2nd highest up the bill slot and Therapy? filled in at the last minute. They received a shed load of abuse from forlorn, shoegazing, hate there mums, emo looking dreeps. Didn't stop them rocking the fuck out the place. Amazing.



I was there too! It was awesome because the DJ clearly didn't like Korn and the fact they pulled out at the last minute so proceeded to slag them off for ages, calling them 'Yawn' I believe.

Did you catch Pantera? Second best set of that day after Sabbath, Foo Fighters sucked though. Shame as I saw them a year earlier in Glasgow and they rocked.



< Message edited by Spaldron -- 25/5/2012 1:13:12 AM >


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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 6:35:48 AM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Wildhearts - Possibly one of the most under rated British rock acts I can think of. PHUQ is a work of joy.


The video for Vanilla Radio cracks me up. Midget Elvis.




I Wanna Go Where the People Go. Possibly the only top 40 uk hit single to contain the word Cunt ?? I might be wrong.


Guns N Roses would disagree with you.

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 9:14:32 AM   
Invader_Ace


Posts: 1586
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Therapy? - Troublegum alone should have sealed it for them. I was at Ozzfest in Milton Keynes, I think it was 1998 or so. Korn pulled out of their 2nd highest up the bill slot and Therapy? filled in at the last minute. They received a shed load of abuse from forlorn, shoegazing, hate there mums, emo looking dreeps. Didn't stop them rocking the fuck out the place. Amazing.



I was there too! It was awesome because the DJ clearly didn't like Korn and the fact they pulled out at the last minute so proceeded to slag them off for ages, calling them 'Yawn' I believe.

Did you catch Pantera? Second best set of that day after Sabbath, Foo Fighters sucked though. Shame as I saw them a year earlier in Glasgow and they rocked.


I was there too!  Foos did suck, wrong Festival.  Therapy were good, but come on, at that time Korn were huge.  I was gutted they pulled, put I was more interested in seeing Pitchshifter and Human Waste Project by that point.

Pantera were awesome, especially when they threw in the first part of Number of The Beast.  Sabbath were awesome though.  Really suprised by that at the time, was right down the front in the thigh high mud.


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Post #: 17
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 12:14:41 PM   
Lucky Day


Posts: 852
Joined: 7/3/2012
From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invader_Ace

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

Therapy? - Troublegum alone should have sealed it for them. I was at Ozzfest in Milton Keynes, I think it was 1998 or so. Korn pulled out of their 2nd highest up the bill slot and Therapy? filled in at the last minute. They received a shed load of abuse from forlorn, shoegazing, hate there mums, emo looking dreeps. Didn't stop them rocking the fuck out the place. Amazing.



I was there too! It was awesome because the DJ clearly didn't like Korn and the fact they pulled out at the last minute so proceeded to slag them off for ages, calling them 'Yawn' I believe.

Did you catch Pantera? Second best set of that day after Sabbath, Foo Fighters sucked though. Shame as I saw them a year earlier in Glasgow and they rocked.


I was there too! Foos did suck, wrong Festival. Therapy were good, but come on, at that time Korn were huge.I was gutted they pulled, put I was more interested in seeing Pitchshifter and Human Waste Projectby that point.

Pantera wereawesome, especially when they threw in the first part of Number of The Beast. Sabbath were awesome though. Really suprised by that at the time, was right down the front in the thigh high mud.





Pantera were amazing. I saw those guys 3 or 4 times and they were always awesome. Fear factory were also rather splendid. Although I had seen them at Donnington a couple of years earlier and they were better. Entombed were beyond belief amazing too. Whilst I'm not a huge fan of Slayer I was impressed that it went dark and started raining just as they came on. Because they are evil. And then the sun came back out just as they left the stage. As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.

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Post #: 18
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 12:16:38 PM   
Lucky Day


Posts: 852
Joined: 7/3/2012
From: Dundee
Oh yeah, and Sabbath were awesome. Touring again soon I think ? Legends.

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Post #: 19
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 12:46:59 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day
Oh yeah, and Sabbath were awesome. Touring again soon I think ? Legends.


They are indeed, however without Bill Ward.

I saw them in the mid 90s when Ian Gillan filled in on the night for an ill Tony Martin. In the days before strict curfews and legal volume limits, it remains one of the loudest gigs I've ever attended. I'm amazed that it didn't damage my hearing.

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 1:27:13 PM   
sharkboy


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From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.



I read a great line once on a tattoo site that was along the lines of "Brian Welch admitted that he got "Jesus" tattooed on his knuckles to resist Satan's temptation to have a wank.  If only he'd had room to tattoo "Freak On A Leash", we could have avoided emos"

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 25/5/2012 1:40:07 PM   
Lucky Day


Posts: 852
Joined: 7/3/2012
From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.



Iread a great line once on a tattoo site that was along the lines of "Brian Welch admitted that he got "Jesus" tattooed on his knuckles to resist Satan's temptation to have a wank. If only he'd had room to tattoo "Freak OnA Leash", we could have avoided emos"


Ha ha ! That's quality. It's funny because it's true

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Post #: 22
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 28/5/2012 12:57:30 PM   
Swoz_MK


Posts: 2884
Joined: 18/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.



Stunningly incorrect.

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Post #: 23
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 28/5/2012 2:14:05 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swoz_MK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.



Stunningly incorrect.




Which bit?

The bit about Korn being shit, the bit about them inventing emo or the bit about emo being shit?

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And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

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Post #: 24
RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 28/5/2012 2:50:19 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5099
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swoz_MK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucky Day

As for Korn, I saw them at Donnington 96 and they were shit, I wasn't in the least bit fussed that they didn't turn up. They pretty much invented the emo. And the emo is something we could all do without.



Stunningly incorrect.




Which bit?

The bit about Korn being shit, the bit about them inventing emo or the bit about emo being shit?


The bit about them inventing it, I'd imagine (the bit about them being shit was bang on). While Korn may have had an influence on a lot of the godawful shite that's now referred to as emo, the term was originally used to refer to seminal DC post-hardcore bands of the '80s like Rites Of Spring and Embrace

< Message edited by horribleives -- 28/5/2012 2:54:21 PM >


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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 28/5/2012 2:55:32 PM   
Olaf


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surely Rites of Spring invented the emo (at least that's what Azerrad said, and I have no reason to distrust him). And anyone who dislikes RoS/Sunny Day Real Estate/Beefeater/Weezer/etc is not to be trusted. Korn are shit though, so there's that.

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 29/5/2012 12:06:15 AM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5099
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To go back to the original topic: I'm still flabbergasted that American Music Club were never as big as REM or someone and that ony a handful of obsessives and '80s/'90s rock critics have ever heard of them.
As well as being possibly my favourite lyricist ever, Mark Eitzel has a voice that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever been in the same room as.

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 29/5/2012 3:30:10 PM   
st3veebee


Posts: 2353
Joined: 3/9/2006
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Weezer were fantastic, but the whole singing-about-random-and-sill-stuff is fine when you are in our twenties..forties? Bit sad now.

Also their output has been rather poor for a while.



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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 29/5/2012 3:47:17 PM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6288
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

To go back to the original topic: I'm still flabbergasted that American Music Club were never as big as REM or someone and that ony a handful of obsessives and '80s/'90s rock critics have ever heard of them.
As well as being possibly my favourite lyricist ever, Mark Eitzel has a voice that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever been in the same room as.


American Music Club absolutely deserved to be global on the strength of Everclear alone (though I probably prefer the Engine and California if I'm being honest), and Eitzel is right up there with Mark Oliver Everett as one of the most under-rated lyricists to have come out of the good old US of A.  Given the press attention and critical praise that Everclear received at the time, I've often wondered what stopped them from reaching the same heights as REM.

Out of interest, what do you think of the post-reformation albums?

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RE: Rock Bands who should be Amongst The Best - 29/5/2012 3:51:19 PM   
Olaf


Posts: 23709
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quote:

ORIGINAL: st3veebee

Weezer were fantastic, but the whole singing-about-random-and-sill-stuff is fine when you are in our twenties..forties? Bit sad now.

Also their output has been rather poor for a while.




The drop off in quality from Blue/Pinkerton to the rest of their stuff is quite staggering really. presumably Rivers had a nervous breakdown or something.

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