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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies

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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 22/5/2012 11:45:35 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6025
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
 Yeah, the crew of the Vincennes claimed that their radar identified Flight 655 as an F14 Tomcat which at the time were flown only by USA and Iran in that area.  Given the heightened tensions that had already led to attacks on each others naval fleet, its not that surprising that they thought the worst and ordered the strike in self defence.  I don't think there is any suggestion that the high-fiving naval officers were celebrating anything other than the removal of what they thought was a real and serious threat to their safety, not the killing of 290 civilians on a commercial flight. Classic post hoc ergo propter hoc to assume otherwise.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 22/5/2012 12:14:49 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 3548
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot
quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwerty Norris


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nexus Wookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry of Arabia

I'm surprised people have such definite opinions of Megrahi and his guilt, from what I've read the case seems to be anything but cut and dried whoever the blame is apportioned to.


Have to agree with this.  From evidence that has since come to light, it does seem like it was a pretty unsafe conviction.  The evidence surrounding the timer and the identity of the person who purchased the clothes in Malta appears to be open to serious question (even though the defence wasn't allowed to do so during the trial).  The more suspicious could be forgiven for thinking that his early release was done more to stop further revelations coming to light during appeals than it was for humanitarian grounds.  That's not necessarily to say that his hands were completely clean, but I think there is reasonable doubt that he had the role that he was accused of.  Particularly when, despite Libya's admission to the UN, some intelligence experts appear to be placing blame back on the original suspects, Iran, in retaliation for the downing of their commercial airliner by USS Vincennes just a few months earlier which claimed nearly 300 lives; the worst action in what was already a period of extremely high tension between the countries, and an action for which the US still has never admitted responsibility nor apologised.


This ^

They down a plane on purpose (there's even video footage of the naval officers high-fiving each other after blowing the Iranian flight out of the air) and never once have to face the consequences. On the other hand the other side down a plane on purpose and its all "evil them" etc... One rule for them and another rule for them, or something.

And if Megrahi was solely responsible for this (if at all) then I'm Daffy Duck.


Absolutely fucking THIS!


+1


Why? Which part? The bit that states Megrahi probably didn't act alone? Or the bit that incorrectly equates Lockerbie with the USS Vincennes tragedy? Did you read Dpp's post above yours?

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 22/5/2012 12:15:56 PM >

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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 22/5/2012 12:35:14 PM   
Qwerty Norris


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 If that post is referring to yours truly, the "Al Megrahi didn't act alone, if at all" bit.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 22/5/2012 8:00:50 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
 The handling of the Vincennes tragedy by the Americans is shocking though, the captain wasn't even stripped of his command he was given the Legion of Merit due to his "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of an outstanding service". Another example of the Americans getting away scot free after killing a ton of people


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Post #: 34
RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 22/5/2012 11:57:09 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 3548
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

The handling of the Vincennes tragedy by the Americans is shocking though, the captain wasn't even stripped of his command he was given the Legion of Merit due to his "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of an outstanding service". Another example of the Americans getting away scot free after killing a ton of people



True, their handling of that tragic fuck-up was absurd. But it has nothing to do with Megrahi and Lockerbie. Nothing about it is comparable, other than that they both involved planes.

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Post #: 35
RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 23/5/2012 9:05:10 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6025
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

True, their handling of that tragic fuck-up was absurd. But it has nothing to do with Megrahi and Lockerbie. Nothing about it is comparable, other than that they both involved planes.


Actually, that's not necessarily true.  While, as DPP said above, the two individual events aren't comparable (one was a deliberate targetting of a civilian flight to cause mass murder, the other was a case of self-defence from what had been identified at the time as a clear threat), there are plenty of people in the intelligence community who think that an Iranian desire for revenge for Flight 655 could have directly led to Lockerbie.

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Post #: 36
RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 23/5/2012 3:03:56 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1007
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

Actually, that's not necessarily true.  While, as DPP said above, the two individual events aren't comparable (one was a deliberate targetting of a civilian flight to cause mass murder, the other was a case of self-defence from what had been identified at the time as a clear threat), there are plenty of people in the intelligence community who think that an Iranian desire for revenge for Flight 655 could have directly led to Lockerbie.


I doubt we'll ever know the whole truth of the matter.

Even if the inquiry into al-Megrahi's conviction which is being lobbied for (see here) goes ahead and finds a miscarriage of justice took place, it probably won't identify the guilty parties. If it did and they turn out to be Iranian there is little chance of getting them extradited so they can be tried.

What it would do is remove any sense of closure the families of those killed may have gained from al-Megrahi's conviction. Sometimes having someone to blame is more important to victims than knowing the truth. I'm not saying that is right or universally applicable to all cases; nor am I saying that their feelings are more important than justice being done. Just that whatever happens there will be those who feel let down by the Scottish justice system.

After all what these questions amount to is a challenge against the competence of Scottish justice; which is, I might add, at least as good or bad as any other. It perhaps isn't surprising that the SNP have been trying to down-play the issue, and with the death of al-Megrahi have attempted to draw a line under the issue.

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Post #: 37
RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 23/5/2012 3:29:00 PM   
elab49


Posts: 51558
Joined: 1/10/2005
I'm surprised the SNP haven't taken a rather more obvious tack. While the trial at Zeist was under Scots Law with the Scottish Courts service sending staff out there to do the admin and the Crown Office similarly (the latter staying in a rather lush hotel in Zeist proper), all of the official papers, agreement, arguments, political guff pretty much had signatures from the then Labour government. Dewar and Reid barely had a look in.

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RE: Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi dies - 23/5/2012 8:57:31 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

The handling of the Vincennes tragedy by the Americans is shocking though, the captain wasn't even stripped of his command he was given the Legion of Merit due to his "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of an outstanding service". Another example of the Americans getting away scot free after killing a ton of people



True, their handling of that tragic fuck-up was absurd. But it has nothing to do with Megrahi and Lockerbie. Nothing about it is comparable, other than that they both involved planes.


And the fact that the guilty parties were never prosecuted!

Everyone knows I like getting the boot into the yanks for their various foreign policy shenanigans but I severely doubt they deliberately shot down a civilian plane.

But the again that's the problem with America - no one ever believes they'd deliberately kill any civilians but their history has left a trail of death and destruction from Southeast Asia, South and Central America, Africa, the Middle East. For some reason even though their army didn't actually mean it or their leaders didn't mean it or didn't realise it would turn out like that the net result is the same - shitloads of people getting killed.

The shooting down of an Iranian airliner is just the natural byproduct of an inherently aggressive foreign policy.

< Message edited by Fluke Skywalker -- 23/5/2012 8:58:26 PM >

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Post #: 39
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