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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison?

 
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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:36:45 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7914
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From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Problem with that would be who drew the line of intolerance - some have it a lot shorter than others.

I have no issue with what he did breaching common decency, but freedom of speech (within the bounds of the law) should be just that - it still allows idiots to act like idiots (which is useful because it singles them out for everyone else to point and laugh). Cynical though it is, in a world where the Mail has the most popular newspaper website in the world, I simply wouldn't rely on a concept like a reasonable persons disposition. And I am genuinely concerned that 'public outrage' had any factor in the adjudication on this case. Which takes me back to the quote regularly misattributed to Voltaire referenced above.



Isn't The Mail website only popular because of the comedy genius of it's comments sections? Let's not get website clicks confused with genuine popularity.

I'm not sure public outrage played much of a factor on the actual adjudication of the case. All it did was highlight that these comments were intolerable to such an extent (more than a mere some) that the judicary stepped in. Kilo's point that it was due to the current 'racism in football' stance probably carried much more weight behind any aspect of the sentencing. The 56 days is harsh considering the publication of his thoughts in the public domain have been widely condemed and it's pretty much going to impact on the direction of his future career choices. His rugby club have already removed their association to Lacey and it will be interesting to see what his University subsequently do in light of his current suspension. That's probably punishment enough (although a roshambo is deserving). In this instance not only the law has appropriately drawn the line on where intolerance lies.

Just because he's an idiot should not be a justification for anyone to type any old shit on the Internet. That gives far too many people scope to abuse the right to freedom of speech.

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Post #: 61
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:43:00 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Isn't The Mail website only popular because of the comedy genius of it's comments sections? Let's not get website clicks confused with genuine popularity.


If only that were the case. I know FAR too many people who are loyal and unironic Mail (both printed and electronic version) readers.

But I suppose if this case does anything, it proves that the line between freedom of speech and incitement of anything unsavoury is very very fine indeed. It's one thing for all of us to constantly go on about how much fun we've all had with Dev's mum, and how our ginger members should be "cleansed" (and I say that as a recovering ginge myself - I am also half Welsh and have a small percentage of French in me, fact fans), but it's quite another for some ill informed twat to piblically spew stuff like that about someone (in this particular instance, a man who was not guilty of anything at all) who nearly died.

EDIT - as I always say, know your audience.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 10/4/2012 1:47:17 PM >


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Post #: 62
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:46:58 PM   
matty_b


Posts: 14520
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Isn't The Mail website only popular because of the comedy genius of it's comments sections? Let's not get website clicks confused with genuine popularity.


If only that were the case. I know FAR too many people who are loyal and unironic Mail (both printed and electronic version) readers.

But I suppose if this case does anything, it proves that the line between freedom of speech and incitement of anything unsavoury is very very fine indeed. It's one thing for all of us to constantly go on about how much fun we've all had with Dev's mum, and how our ginger members should be "cleansed" (and I say that as a recovering ginge myself - I am also half Welsh and have a small percentage of French in me, fact fans), but it's quite another for some ill informed twat to piblically spew stuff like that about someone (in this particular instance, a man who was not guilty of anything at all) who nearly died.


Hurr hurr hurr.

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Post #: 63
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:49:28 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Isn't The Mail website only popular because of the comedy genius of it's comments sections? Let's not get website clicks confused with genuine popularity.


If only that were the case. I know FAR too many people who are loyal and unironic Mail (both printed and electronic version) readers.

But I suppose if this case does anything, it proves that the line between freedom of speech and incitement of anything unsavoury is very very fine indeed. It's one thing for all of us to constantly go on about how much fun we've all had with Dev's mum, and how our ginger members should be "cleansed" (and I say that as a recovering ginge myself - I am also half Welsh and have a small percentage of French in me, fact fans), but it's quite another for some ill informed twat to piblically spew stuff like that about someone (in this particular instance, a man who was not guilty of anything at all) who nearly died.


Hurr hurr hurr.


I KNEW I neglected to add an in-parentheses "fnarr" somewhere...

I also appear to have lost the ability to spell "publically" correctly.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 10/4/2012 1:50:37 PM >


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Post #: 64
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:51:46 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid.



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.


There is that, but there's also the fact that Lee has been tediously and smugly wearing his hatred of football as a badge of pseudo-sophisticated cool for years now.


Pseudo-sophisticated? really? why? But I suppose I am tediously making a point through my love of Stewart Lee as a secret badge to other Stewart Lee fans. The point being the stand up routine in question makes several good point about why racist abuse is worse than normal abuse. Sorry everyone.


Actually, I've seen him do that routine and you're right - the point he makes point is bang on the money.
On the slightly off-topic issue of Lee himself though, I never much liked his TV shows or found him particularly funny until I saw him live last year and thought he was hilarious (if still a little smug). Saw him again recently though and it seems the older he gets the more like a stuck-up, elitist student he's becoming - if stand-up comedy is so beneath you mate, you could always retire? And his tiresome attacking of other comedians (even if most of them deserve it) is starting to look like plain bitterness.

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Post #: 65
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:58:47 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives
On the slightly off-topic issue of Lee himself though, I never much liked his TV shows or found him particularly funny until I saw him live last year and thought he was hilarious (if still a little smug). Saw him again recently though and it seems the older he gets the more like a stuck-up, elitist student he's becoming - if stand-up comedy is so beneath you mate, you could always retire? And his tiresome attacking of other comedians (even if most of them deserve it) is starting to look like plain bitterness.


I've seen him live several times over the years. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the "punchlines" (such as they are) to most of his routines always end up portraying Lee himself as either the loser in the story, or having to fabricate a personal history to make him more interesting as a person (cf. the Pear Cider, Richard Hammond, meeting David Cameron at uni, Michael Macintyre and Cafe Nero routines, all of which spring to mind as some good examples off the top of my head).

I believe that's always been the main point of his act - he initially portrats himself as being a smug elitist, but then slowly reveals that he's actually just a grumpy man.

< Message edited by great_badir -- 10/4/2012 2:00:32 PM >


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Post #: 66
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 2:18:39 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Problem with that would be who drew the line of intolerance - some have it a lot shorter than others.

I have no issue with what he did breaching common decency, but freedom of speech (within the bounds of the law) should be just that - it still allows idiots to act like idiots (which is useful because it singles them out for everyone else to point and laugh). Cynical though it is, in a world where the Mail has the most popular newspaper website in the world, I simply wouldn't rely on a concept like a reasonable persons disposition. And I am genuinely concerned that 'public outrage' had any factor in the adjudication on this case. Which takes me back to the quote regularly misattributed to Voltaire referenced above.



Isn't The Mail website only popular because of the comedy genius of it's comments sections? Let's not get website clicks confused with genuine popularity.

I'm not sure public outrage played much of a factor on the actual adjudication of the case. All it did was highlight that these comments were intolerable to such an extent (more than a mere some) that the judicary stepped in. Kilo's point that it was due to the current 'racism in football' stance probably carried much more weight behind any aspect of the sentencing. The 56 days is harsh considering the publication of his thoughts in the public domain have been widely condemed and it's pretty much going to impact on the direction of his future career choices. His rugby club have already removed their association to Lacey and it will be interesting to see what his University subsequently do in light of his current suspension. That's probably punishment enough (although a roshambo is deserving). In this instance not only the law has appropriately drawn the line on where intolerance lies.

Just because he's an idiot should not be a justification for anyone to type any old shit on the Internet. That gives far too many people scope to abuse the right to freedom of speech.


I agree with you on the sentence - it seems out of step for the offence and in context with sentences given for other offences. (And I'm told the side bar thingy on the Mail site is apparently a massive addiction as well?).

Freedom of speech, though? I think the price of freedom of speech is the voice it gives to idiots, and that seem a pretty cheap cost IMO. In a world where China variously banned search terms like ferrari and crash to try and cover up the fact one of its high heid 'uns could apparently afford a 200k car for his over-privileged kid, and said kid subsequently totalled it, it's easy to forget how thin a line some state set-ups take on those freedoms.


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quote:

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Post #: 67
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 2:54:02 PM   
Harley Quinn


Posts: 5796
Joined: 23/1/2008
From: Arkham
I was going to start a new topic but thought it would be better suited to here.

Alan Davies is getting death threats over Twitter at the moment due to some comments he made over Hillsborough and Liverpool not playing on the anniversary. A similar story to the Brand/Ross fiasco when he made them no-one was that bothered until the papers fanned the flames.

Some of the things being said to him are beyond a joke and the level of bile and poison being directed to him is scary. Would this still fall under the freedom of speech or because they are now death threats should the people involved be arrested or charged?



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Post #: 68
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:04:42 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives
On the slightly off-topic issue of Lee himself though, I never much liked his TV shows or found him particularly funny until I saw him live last year and thought he was hilarious (if still a little smug). Saw him again recently though and it seems the older he gets the more like a stuck-up, elitist student he's becoming - if stand-up comedy is so beneath you mate, you could always retire? And his tiresome attacking of other comedians (even if most of them deserve it) is starting to look like plain bitterness.


I've seen him live several times over the years. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the "punchlines" (such as they are) to most of his routines always end up portraying Lee himself as either the loser in the story, or having to fabricate a personal history to make him more interesting as a person (cf. the Pear Cider, Richard Hammond, meeting David Cameron at uni, Michael Macintyre and Cafe Nero routines, all of which spring to mind as some good examples off the top of my head).

I believe that's always been the main point of his act - he initially portrats himself as being a smug elitist, but then slowly reveals that he's actually just a grumpy man.


I'd agree with that based on the first time I saw him but on the recent show it seemed less like an on-stage persona than him basically just being himself.
I dunno, I read his book (How I Escaped My Certain Fate) not long ago and while it was interesting and occasionally funny, he tends to come across that way in print too, especially when dismissing audiences who don't 'get' him or in the chapter about Jerry Springer: The Opera in which he severely overestimates its importance as a piece of art (as well as its quality).

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Post #: 69
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:06:10 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
If they're making death threats I thought that was a chargeable offence. No-one has the freedom to threaten anybody's life - that's the bit that comes under 'as constrained by the law'.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 70
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:14:52 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
The death threats are disgusting. But the backlash in general? There's absolutely no way he wouldn't have been expecting it, so it feels like a bit of trolling on his part from the beginning. It's also difficult to have a great deal of sympathy for someone like Davies getting a Twitter backlash after the way he acted on Twitter during the Fry flounce.

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Post #: 71
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:21:39 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

The death threats are disgusting. But the backlash in general? There's absolutely no way he wouldn't have been expecting it, so it feels like a bit of trolling on his part from the beginning. It's also difficult to have a great deal of sympathy for someone like Davies getting a Twitter backlash after the way he acted on Twitter during the Fry flounce.


What happened there?

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Post #: 72
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:26:50 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10484
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

The death threats are disgusting. But the backlash in general? There's absolutely no way he wouldn't have been expecting it, so it feels like a bit of trolling on his part from the beginning. It's also difficult to have a great deal of sympathy for someone like Davies getting a Twitter backlash after the way he acted on Twitter during the Fry flounce.


What happened there?


Same.

And on a related note do you think those who made the death threats against Davies will get jail time? Just putting things in context.

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Post #: 73
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:34:38 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
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A year or two back, someone tweeted something that from memory run "I really like Stephen Fry, but I find his tweets a little boring." Fry read it and decided to leave Twitter. A couple of days later he came back and said basically that he'd been having a bad time and that just set him off a little and that it wasn't the person's fault, etc. In the meantime, the guy got constant abuse because he was the man who made Stephen Fry leave Twitter. It was all a bit of a witch-hunt by some Stephen Fry fans. Davies waded in and started name-calling and baiting anyone who defended the original tweeter. Eventually building up to a statement along the lines of "You look after your mates. Twitter should be more like Essex, say it to their face or shut up." The kind of "YOUSAIDSOMETHINGABOUTMYMATE!" hardman bollocks that's generally the mark of a complete tosser. Fry himself apologised to the original tweeter for all the crap he had to put up with, for what was a perfectly harmless comment. But Davies just kind of fuelled the bullying. I can't find myself having much sympathy for him being on the receiving end of it. Just as I won't if Noel Fielding starts getting a lot of Twitter abuse after his recent actions.

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Post #: 74
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:38:36 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
I doubt Fielding will, critics won't exactly have a base of defenders for that kind of thing. Anyway, the critic ran with it as well.

If Davies had simply stated his opinion it would be an easier judgement to make - unfortunately there was the way he said it so he's apologised for that part. Less clear cut. By which I mean whether he's a tit rather than the threats side - I can't think of any circumstance where that would be remotely acceptable. 


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 75
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:43:36 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Yeah, but I mean more the fact that Fielding actively sent out his Twitter followers to abuse someone. Again, it's just provoking bullying. The man's almost 40 (and Davies is in his 40s) you'd think they'd both be a bit more grown up. As for Davies being a tit, I'm guessing the homeless man thinks so.

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Post #: 76
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 3:50:47 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

A year or two back, someone tweeted something that from memory run "I really like Stephen Fry, but I find his tweets a little boring." Fry read it and decided to leave Twitter. A couple of days later he came back and said basically that he'd been having a bad time and that just set him off a little and that it wasn't the person's fault, etc. In the meantime, the guy got constant abuse because he was the man who made Stephen Fry leave Twitter. It was all a bit of a witch-hunt by some Stephen Fry fans. Davies waded in and started name-calling and baiting anyone who defended the original tweeter. Eventually building up to a statement along the lines of "You look after your mates. Twitter should be more like Essex, say it to their face or shut up." The kind of "YOUSAIDSOMETHINGABOUTMYMATE!" hardman bollocks that's generally the mark of a complete tosser. Fry himself apologised to the original tweeter for all the crap he had to put up with, for what was a perfectly harmless comment. But Davies just kind of fuelled the bullying. I can't find myself having much sympathy for him being on the receiving end of it. Just as I won't if Noel Fielding starts getting a lot of Twitter abuse after his recent actions.


What a tit. Mind, he's got a history of treating anyone who isn't rich and famous as if they're not worthy of him so I'm not surprised.

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Post #: 77
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 4:28:09 PM   
Spaldron


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Didn't he once do "a Mike Tyson" to a homeless guy?

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Post #: 78
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 4:53:00 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
He did.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1572164/Jonathan-Creek-star-Davies-bites-tramps-ear.html

I love this line

The curly-haired actor said he did not realise the man was homeless

As if fucking matters. I bit this guy's ear off last night, but he has a flat, so that's ok.

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Post #: 79
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 5:22:38 PM   
DancingClown


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What did Noel Fielding do?

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Post #: 80
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 5:26:36 PM   
elab49


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Got his Twitter followers to go insult a critic that had been rude about his show, or something like that. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 81
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 5:27:30 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
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He was picked to interview Damien Hirst for a documentary recently and an art critic commented that it was like getting a naked woman to sell a car. So Fielding went on twitter and told his followers to go to the critic's twitter and insult him. I think a lot of the insults were Boosh quotes, but there were others calling the guy a paedophile, a rapist, stuff like that, and Fielding was egging it on and telling them how brilliant they were, etc.

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Post #: 82
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 5:31:14 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
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Didn't the critic retweet it saying he was having a whale of a time? 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 83
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 5:32:41 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
He was mocking Fielding, I think. Because he tweeted something saying "Thanks for all the laughs, you're hilarious, Noel could learn something from you."

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Post #: 84
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 6:34:58 PM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
quote:


Freedom of speech, though? I think the price of freedom of speech is the voice it gives to idiots, and that seem a pretty cheap cost IMO.


It might not seem so cheap if you were young black person on the other end of the abuse, though. Sticking with football, we've seen players so shocked by abuse that they've refused to continue with matches and at least one (Peter Odemwingie) leave his country of birth to play in England, in part because of the racist abuse he got from fans at home. These aren't simply insults, they're words with a lasting, malign power. Had they not been tackled in schools, football grounds and the workplace over the last 40 years, it's probably reasonable to assume they would be far more common now. Jail may be excessive in this case but a legal bar probably isn't.

The fact that Coren, G's 'f*** the Polacks' outburst went unpunished and Coren, A's Collected Bulletins Of Idi Amin is still available to buy on Amazon suggests that there's still plenty of scope to act like a xenophobe / racist and not get hauled before the beak.

< Message edited by JessFranco -- 10/4/2012 6:35:36 PM >


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Post #: 85
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 7:06:15 PM   
elab49


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But, again, I made clear I meant as constrained by law and racist abuse is covered by that. 

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ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 86
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 7:20:33 PM   
JessFranco


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So you did! Ignore me.

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Post #: 87
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 7:21:22 PM   
elab49


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to JessFranco)
Post #: 88
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 11/4/2012 1:20:30 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
"Thanks for all the laughs, you're hilarious, Noel could learn something from you."


Touche.

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(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 89
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 11/4/2012 1:39:37 PM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Caught somewhere in time

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

Anyway, Isn't the racism point moot considering what Stacey initially tweeted? That at the very least is deserving of a roshambo for the total disregard of another man's life. Once you breach the line of intolerance, an individuals right to declare 'freedom of speech' goes out of the window.


Will this also apply when Thatcher eventually dies and the working class are uncorking bottles of champagne all over the country? Does their right to declare 'freedom of speech' also disappear?

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(in reply to clownfoot)
Post #: 90
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