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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison?

 
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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 5:17:13 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
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From: Land of the Scots

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

Does this mean we can't call each other cunts any more?


You'll be fine as long as you don't intend to cause harassment, alarm or distress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

It depends who gets called c***.


Never a truer word written. There will always be some precious flower who will take offence where none was meant, and some of those are spiteful enough to try to get a person prosecuted.

However s4A (3) provides a defence if you can prove your conduct was reasonable. There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.



Ok, I was joking....

And that last line is damn funny

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Post #: 31
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 8:56:32 PM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Boggles my mind a private citizen could face any legal action whatsoever over his views, as long as those views were not advocating violence. If his postings violated TWITTER or FACEBOOK TERMS OF SERVICE, then delete his account. Throwing someone in the brig because they're a racist, no matter how vile their views may be, is an affront to human rights. I was very much surprised to see this happen in the UK.

Exactly. I'm surprised that there's even a debate here. There is absolutely no justification in censoring any speech or expression that does not directly incite violence.

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Post #: 32
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 9:01:23 PM   
The REAL Bozz


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I don't think he should have gone to jail. It's all getting out of hand now. I don't agree with what he did but the consequence was too far. He's just a kid ain't he?

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Post #: 33
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 9:45:59 PM   
Woger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89

quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Boggles my mind a private citizen could face any legal action whatsoever over his views, as long as those views were not advocating violence. If his postings violated TWITTER or FACEBOOK TERMS OF SERVICE, then delete his account. Throwing someone in the brig because they're a racist, no matter how vile their views may be, is an affront to human rights. I was very much surprised to see this happen in the UK.

Exactly. I'm surprised that there's even a debate here. There is absolutely no justification in censoring any speech or expression that does not directly incite violence.


Yeah, being a dick shouldn't be a crime.

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Post #: 34
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 11:20:01 PM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
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From: London
If you go up to someone in the street and call them every racist name under the sun, but stop short of doing or inciting physical violence, should that be protected as freedom of speech?

Holding racist opinions isn't against the law. Expressing racist opinions generally isn't against the law. Directing racist abuse at other people is against the law. The law may be messy and inconsistently applied but that seems fairly reasonable as a point of principle.

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Post #: 35
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 11:37:45 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

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From: The States

Obviously that wouldn't be protected speech, because you're intimidating a person in real life. That is called "harassment" in my country. If you're talking about a footballer who is a public figure, and doing it on the Internet, yes, it should be protected. That is called "saying stupid stuff on the Internet". I don't like racism any more than the next person, but beyond Voltare's famous quote, you also have to be concerned that the next government is going to redefine "abuse" to censor all sorts of speech.

< Message edited by King of Kafiristan -- 9/4/2012 11:42:21 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 11:48:39 PM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
I'm not sure intimidation necessarily come into it. If you're racially abusing someone twice your size they're unlikely to fear for their safety but the psychological impact is still potentially significant. If you're yelling racist insults at black footballers from the terraces, they're not going to be scared of you but you will, quite reasonably in my view, be arrested.

Stacey didn't directly racially abuse Muamba, as far as i'm aware. What he said about the public figure probably wouldn't have been illegal. He did, however, direct a load of racist abuse at individual Twitter users who called him out on it.

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Post #: 37
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 9/4/2012 11:54:55 PM   
rawlinson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

but beyond Voltare's famous quote,



Pedantic I know, but it was Evelyn Beatrice Hall.

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Post #: 38
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 12:34:45 AM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

If you go up to someone in the street and call them every racist name under the sun, but stop short of doing or inciting physical violence, should that be protected as freedom of speech?

Yes, presuming it isn't persistent (i.e. harassment). Racist comments are the same as any other kind of insult, and as far as I'm concerned insulting someone shouldn't be a crime. If you're saying that intimidation doesn't come into it, then what would the perpetrator be arrested for - hurting someone's feelings? The line only needs to be drawn at the point of intimidation, which I'm sure is covered by harassment laws and laws against the incitement of violence.

The situation you described above is actually protected in America under the First Amendment, in which it is made unconstitutional to criminalise hate speech. Say what you like about the Americans, but we could take a lesson or two from the First Amendment here in the UK.

< Message edited by sam89 -- 10/4/2012 1:06:06 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:26:11 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8279
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89
Racist comments are the same as any other kind of insult


No they're not. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous.

< Message edited by superdan -- 10/4/2012 1:27:21 AM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:35:31 AM   
sam89


Posts: 565
Joined: 1/5/2008
Historically that may be the case. But how does that apply now?

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Post #: 41
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:38:15 AM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12189
Joined: 30/9/2005
What worries me about this is the Fraping culture we have on Facebook or Twitter. I'm sure lots of us have done it to other people, and I'm sure most of us know someone who always likes to go that little bit too far with the joke. If something happened where someone posted a comment under your name that got you in trouble, I hope that your defence wouldn't then have to rest on the decency of the person who committed the crime, to come forward and clear your name, and then be punished themselves?

I don't know how IP addresses etc would work in this, but if something awful was posted from my mobile phone for instance over a 3G connection, what chance would I have in claiming that I didn't do it?

I'm genuinely worried about this now

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Post #: 42
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 4:45:52 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

What worries me about this is the Fraping culture we have on Facebook or Twitter. I'm sure lots of us have done it to other people, and I'm sure most of us know someone who always likes to go that little bit too far with the joke. If something happened where someone posted a comment under your name that got you in trouble, I hope that your defence wouldn't then have to rest on the decency of the person who committed the crime, to come forward and clear your name, and then be punished themselves?

I don't know how IP addresses etc would work in this, but if something awful was posted from my mobile phone for instance over a 3G connection, what chance would I have in claiming that I didn't do it?

I'm genuinely worried about this now



I think we should perhaps take a step back and realise that millions of people are happily directing homophobic, racist and bigoted views and insults at others every week all across the world. The fact that this one case resulted in prosecution (because it was to do with football? Cynical me) should perhaps be put in perspective.

< Message edited by Kilo_T_Mortal -- 10/4/2012 4:46:08 AM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 6:49:18 AM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
quote:

Historically that may be the case. But how does that apply now?


It'll apply until people are no longer abused, physically attacked and discriminated against based on the colour of their skin.

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Post #: 44
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 7:35:48 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

quote:

Historically that may be the case. But how does that apply now?


It'll apply until people are no longer abused, physically attacked and discriminated against based on the colour of their skin.



Or we all interbreed until we are pretty much the same colour.

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Post #: 45
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 7:48:26 AM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4236
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89

Racist comments are the same as any other kind of insult, and as far as I'm concerned insulting someone shouldn't be a crime. If you're saying that intimidation doesn't come into it, then what would the perpetrator be arrested for - hurting someone's feelings? The line only needs to be drawn at the point of intimidation, which I'm sure is covered by harassment laws and laws against the incitement of violence.


Not quite understanding this to be honest. If a man confronts a young black woman in the street and racially abuses her then that is intimidation, surely? Or are you suggesting she just "shrugs it off"? The old "sticks and stones" adage surely can't apply to everything.



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Post #: 46
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 8:32:25 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
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"It's no different to saying Jimmy Hill has a big chin". But we shouldn't be surprised by this statement because footballers, people who play football and in fact anyone who knows anything about football is filthy reactionary scum.

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Post #: 47
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 10:03:58 AM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7919
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal

"It's no different to saying Jimmy Hill has a big chin". But we shouldn't be surprised by this statement because footballers, people who play football and in fact anyone who knows anything about football is filthy reactionary scum.


It's good to see that Kilo is equally capable at tarring everyone with the same brush as much as the bigots and homophobes of the world...

Anyway, Isn't the racism point moot considering what Stacey initially tweeted? That at the very least is deserving of a roshambo for the total disregard of another man's life. Once you breach the line of intolerance, an individuals right to declare 'freedom of speech' goes out of the window.

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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:09:35 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Once you breach the line of intolerance, an individuals right to declare 'freedom of speech' goes out of the window.


Not so sir! Who draws the line? What is the line? When has one crossed it? And how did they make the declaration?

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Post #: 49
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:10:40 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
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quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal

"It's no different to saying Jimmy Hill has a big chin". But we shouldn't be surprised by this statement because footballers, people who play football and in fact anyone who knows anything about football is filthy reactionary scum.


It's good to see that Kilo is equally capable at tarring everyone with the same brush as much as the bigots and homophobes of the world...


Unfortunately Stuart Lee said it first, but the point still stands.

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Post #: 50
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:14:09 AM   
elab49


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It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 

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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:20:11 AM   
clownfoot


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Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot
Once you breach the line of intolerance, an individuals right to declare 'freedom of speech' goes out of the window.


Not so sir! Who draws the line? What is the line? When has one crossed it? And how did they make the declaration?


In this instance the response Lacey received from the average tweeter to his initial 'LOL' tweet was justification enough that speaking ill of a man that had just collapsed and possibly died was a step to far. I'd like to think that most people of a reasonable disposition would come to the same conclusion.

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Post #: 52
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:25:59 AM   
elab49


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Problem with that would be who drew the line of intolerance - some have it a lot shorter than others.

I have no issue with what he did breaching common decency, but freedom of speech (within the bounds of the law) should be just that - it still allows idiots to act like idiots (which is useful because it singles them out for everyone else to point and laugh). Cynical though it is, in a world where the Mail has the most popular newspaper website in the world, I simply wouldn't rely on a concept like a reasonable persons disposition. And I am genuinely concerned that 'public outrage' had any factor in the adjudication on this case. Which takes me back to the quote regularly misattributed to Voltaire referenced above.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 53
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:29:12 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.

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Post #: 54
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:32:35 AM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5068
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.


There is that, but there's also the fact that Lee has been tediously and smugly wearing his hatred of football as a badge of pseudo-sophisticated cool for years now.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 10/4/2012 11:33:03 AM >


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RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 11:36:52 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.


Your problem there would be the suggestion it masquerades as 'humour'.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 56
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:22:34 PM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1160
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: sam89

Racist comments are the same as any other kind of insult, and as far as I'm concerned insulting someone shouldn't be a crime. If you're saying that intimidation doesn't come into it, then what would the perpetrator be arrested for - hurting someone's feelings? The line only needs to be drawn at the point of intimidation, which I'm sure is covered by harassment laws and laws against the incitement of violence.


Not quite understanding this to be honest. If a man confronts a young black woman in the street and racially abuses her then that is intimidation, surely? Or are you suggesting she just "shrugs it off"? The old "sticks and stones" adage surely can't apply to everything.




Intimidation is irrelevant. If you verbally abuse a person in public, be it racially or otherwise, you can be arrested (if by some miracle there is a constable nearby).

A police constable has the power to intervene where there is a breach of the peace. If after the intervention the person breaching the peace continues to do so the Public Order Act provides a constable with the power to arrest them. Of course if the victim is intimidated it will be an aggravating factor when considering what would be a fair sentence should there be a successful prosecution.

This power only exists in public places. If the same abuse occurs in a private dwelling the police can only intervene if it is causing a public nuisance, if they are invited to, if they have a warrant from the court or there is reason to believe there is immediate danger to a person's safety.

What this case seems to be saying is a public internet forum should be treated the same as any "real" public place. If what you say could get you in trouble in the real world, it could just as easily get you in trouble in the virtual one. It is one of those legal analogies I wrote about previously.

When I wrote you can only be in trouble for calling someone a cunt if you intend to upset them isn't really the case as s5 of the Public Order Act provides a similar offence where no intention to cause harassment, alarm or distress is present. You just have to be aware someone might be.

However on a forum such as this, which has a code of conduct and its own private police force: a thin green line if you will, where if anything gets really untoward a ban will be given, the bad conduct would have to be spectacularly inappropriate to necessitate external intervention.

Twitter on the other hand is unmoderated.

Thinking about it on those terms, that when you post online it is equivalent to saying something in a public place for all to hear, it seem somewhat less unreasonable; at least to me.

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Post #: 57
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:23:24 PM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.


Your problem there would be the suggestion it masquerades as 'humour'.



The chin on chin violence thing is good. Watch it it's worth it.

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Post #: 58
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:28:13 PM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13535
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It's not a point though, it's just a silly generalised attack on a mass disparate group of people. My mum can name some of the old Scotland team - so she's filthy reactionary scum? See - it's stupid. 



The humor is derived from the statement itself being reactionary.


There is that, but there's also the fact that Lee has been tediously and smugly wearing his hatred of football as a badge of pseudo-sophisticated cool for years now.


Pseudo-sophisticated? really? why? But I suppose I am tediously making a point through my love of Stewart Lee as a secret badge to other Stewart Lee fans. The point being the stand up routine in question makes several good point about why racist abuse is worse than normal abuse. Sorry everyone.

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Post #: 59
RE: Should Liam Stacey have gone to prison? - 10/4/2012 1:31:10 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
Ban this sick football filth!

Ban it now, I say.

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