quote:

ORIGINAL: J_BUltimatum

Not a fan of Potter at all. The books are badly written

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drone

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_BUltimatum

Not a fan of Potter at all. The books are badly written

That's such a tired, utterly unfounded statement.  I'm very well read, and among many of the literary "greats" as championed by the educated masses, I've found very few to be page turning to the point where I've read them cover to cover in as single a sitting as time allows.

JK Rowling has done this with Harry Potter - and I would argue it takes tremendous skill to write in that way.  If not, of course, feel free to emulate her success and find yourself a multi millionaire, and a worth billionaire.  It's all badly written guff anyway, so anybody should be able to do it, nay?  (Cue a million paper thin arguments, yawn).

If you can present me with reasons as to why you consider her a bad writer without quoting every assinine critic and literary boo-hoo who wishes to be trendy enough to diss something simply because it's popular and appeals to the masses, I'm more than willing to hear it.  But you won't be able to.

The first two HP books, Philosopher's Stone and Chamber of Secrets, have some clunky prose but this dissappears utterly in the later books, and I think they are superbly written.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

quote:

ORIGINAL: jobloffski

A lot of this may seem irrelevant, but trust me, it all builds to a point...Firstly I would say I haven't seen the film yet.

But I would also say:

Prior to reading any of the books I was as harsh a critic of the whole idea of adults doing so as you could imagine. I watched the first two films, and remained largely unconvinced. But then I thought what the hell and took up a cheap offer for a box set of books 1-5. And something started to happen. I felt like I was reading kids books until the third, and then I realised that I was reading something I had never read before, a series of books in which the tone and content of the books grew up as the characters did. I noted that the books were doing two things: telling kids about the increasing complications of life as you get older AND reminding adult readers of what it felt like to be a kid growing up.

By the time I was reading the last book, I was thinking 'that's gonna look so fucking cool on screen' but I was also thinking 'these books are the kind of books where if you are an adult, you truly know how dark these ideas are at times but if you are a kid you are going to be taken in by all the magic stuff'. That's a balance Rowling's critics will never strike.

Regardless of any potential criticism of the writing of the books, which can be made if you really want to look for it, the thing that is most captivating about them is the amount of imagination they contain that incorporates sometimes very adult material without the easy option of explicit bad language and violence (the very things supposedly adult material contains at times in place of ideas/character/emotion/etc). There is also a satirical edge in the books (portrayal of the press and politicians and piss taking of new tech like tivo) that the films haven't had the room to incorporate.

And the world the stories described, which ultimately transcends the inspirations for the concepts explored, began to provide all the reasons to continue reading, Far more than the films, the books allowed you to live with the characters and feel for them (eg Neville and the tragic fate of his parents) and therefore readers of the books, even if dissatisfied at times with the films not really having a chance of getting all the 'heart' into them, people could view the films with some degree of wider knowledge and see more in the films than non readers would.

Beginning to blah blah too much, so, in short, IF the final film gets anywhere near the 'it all comes down to this' feeling of the books, even if the final two films cant get anywhere near the levels of terror adult readers can perceive in the words on the page (specifically due to the nazi parallels and the number of of casually dealt out deaths referred to) then the final films would have been a major achievement.

And as a reader, finding out that the reason JK wrote the books was to get help her get over losing her mother and concluding, via writing that the people we lose along the way in life make us who we are and never truly leave us, that added a tinge of reality to the fantasy tale that is unashamedly emotional and totally heartbreaking if you have the balls to allow yourself to feel the emotions you need to feel to truly grasp what JK has achieved as a storyteller. There isn't anybody currently writing that has approached such a level of sheer humanity in the tale being told, and under all the wand waving, there is a reality and human vulnerability that so called literary writers simply don't have the balls to touch, because their writing is about writing, not emotion. When reading the Deathly Hallows, and when Harry is surrounded by the spirits of those he has lost, and is becoming the man their influence has made him, that may well be the most emotionally affecting thing i have read in my life, and as someone who writes, I can only bow down in utter humility at the culmination of all the Potter writing that built up to that point.

The Harry Potter 'phenomenon' exists solely because a woman wanted/needed to express her pain at losing loved ones and find the strength to go on living. That is the power under her writing and it is that sheer humanity that is the reason she has touched so many, because under the mask of fantasy, she has laid bare the harshest realities people will ever have to face.

And if the new film comes within touching distance of making Harry Potter seem like the Everyman/woman who has to face the darkness within him/her self and still find the strength to go on living in a world where the pain of losing the ones we love is inevitable, then it will be a very major achievement. And it will transcend all criticism, because the criticism will generally come from those who want to be seen to be tough/clever, rather than those who accept weakness/tears as part of being human. Ironically, the criticism will come from those who cannot accept the harsh realities of life underpinning Rowling's words, the Voldermorts among us who cannot accept the realities of life and want to be, or at least be seen to be, untouchable/invulnerable/all powerful.

Love destroys evil. Under all the magic gubbins, is there any better message any writer could try to impart? As hard as it may be to believe in, as cheesy as it may appear when our cynicism offers the feeling of power we want to feel, is there anything more important than the belief that the spark of humanity that wont go out can save us from the darkness inherent in each of us?

Considering how the 'real world politik' has gone in the last decade, a fundamental belief in the potential goodness of humanity has never been more important than it is right now. And ultimately, I don;t think JKR has done anything but say that sort of thing,

I formed such thoughts while reading the books, And a 4 star film capping such thoughts off will do me fine, Because when reading the Deathly Hallows, I was concerned that Harry Potter might die. And that was purely the result of 'seeing him grow up' via the books and having the kind of reaction that would never have been possible had there not been enough in the books to pull that feeling from my too often cynical, care home/foster home raised soul. JK Rowling did something special.

Nuff said.

Cracking post jobloffski. I'm going to print that out and give it to the next person who says the books are shit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drone

Your statement has a flip side, wherein for me the problem lies - I half fancied seeing Scott Pilgrim, and ended up watching it after a colleague loaned me the Blu Ray - and I thought it was abysmal.  If I'd relied on the critics whom in the past I'd considered to be fairly well informed and smart however, I would have paid good money to go and see it, and been thoroughly disappointed.

If you rely on like minded people to dictate what you'll enjoy based on the hope they have similar tastes, you may be denying yourself something you'll enjoy tremendously.  I use RT for a lot of my film news and info, and I would say the aggregate scores for a lot of films tallying up with my own enjoyment is about 50% - most of the low scoring movies that I was interested to watch I've thought were very good or nowhere near as bad as the scores suggest, and a great may of the universally acclaimed high scorers haven't really impressed me to more than three stars.

Critics carry zero weight for me in light of something I have an interest in - same for books, music, and TV series.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jobloffski

A lot of this may seem irrelevant, but trust me, it all builds to a point...Firstly I would say I haven't seen the film yet.

But I would also say:

Prior to reading any of the books I was as harsh a critic of the whole idea of adults doing so as you could imagine. I watched the first two films, and remained largely unconvinced. But then I thought what the hell and took up a cheap offer for a box set of books 1-5. And something started to happen. I felt like I was reading kids books until the third, and then I realised that I was reading something I had never read before, a series of books in which the tone and content of the books grew up as the characters did. I noted that the books were doing two things: telling kids about the increasing complications of life as you get older AND reminding adult readers of what it felt like to be a kid growing up.

By the time I was reading the last book, I was thinking 'that's gonna look so fucking cool on screen' but I was also thinking 'these books are the kind of books where if you are an adult, you truly know how dark these ideas are at times but if you are a kid you are going to be taken in by all the magic stuff'. That's a balance Rowling's critics will never strike.

Regardless of any potential criticism of the writing of the books, which can be made if you really want to look for it, the thing that is most captivating about them is the amount of imagination they contain that incorporates sometimes very adult material without the easy option of explicit bad language and violence (the very things supposedly adult material contains at times in place of ideas/character/emotion/etc). There is also a satirical edge in the books (portrayal of the press and politicians and piss taking of new tech like tivo) that the films haven't had the room to incorporate.

And the world the stories described, which ultimately transcends the inspirations for the concepts explored, began to provide all the reasons to continue reading, Far more than the films, the books allowed you to live with the characters and feel for them (eg Neville and the tragic fate of his parents) and therefore readers of the books, even if dissatisfied at times with the films not really having a chance of getting all the 'heart' into them, people could view the films with some degree of wider knowledge and see more in the films than non readers would.

Beginning to blah blah too much, so, in short, IF the final film gets anywhere near the 'it all comes down to this' feeling of the books, even if the final two films cant get anywhere near the levels of terror adult readers can perceive in the words on the page (specifically due to the nazi parallels and the number of of casually dealt out deaths referred to) then the final films would have been a major achievement.

And as a reader, finding out that the reason JK wrote the books was to get help her get over losing her mother and concluding, via writing that the people we lose along the way in life make us who we are and never truly leave us, that added a tinge of reality to the fantasy tale that is unashamedly emotional and totally heartbreaking if you have the balls to allow yourself to feel the emotions you need to feel to truly grasp what JK has achieved as a storyteller. There isn't anybody currently writing that has approached such a level of sheer humanity in the tale being told, and under all the wand waving, there is a reality and human vulnerability that so called literary writers simply don't have the balls to touch, because their writing is about writing, not emotion. When reading the Deathly Hallows, and when Harry is surrounded by the spirits of those he has lost, and is becoming the man their influence has made him, that may well be the most emotionally affecting thing i have read in my life, and as someone who writes, I can only bow down in utter humility at the culmination of all the Potter writing that built up to that point.

The Harry Potter 'phenomenon' exists solely because a woman wanted/needed to express her pain at losing loved ones and find the strength to go on living. That is the power under her writing and it is that sheer humanity that is the reason she has touched so many, because under the mask of fantasy, she has laid bare the harshest realities people will ever have to face.

And if the new film comes within touching distance of making Harry Potter seem like the Everyman/woman who has to face the darkness within him/her self and still find the strength to go on living in a world where the pain of losing the ones we love is inevitable, then it will be a very major achievement. And it will transcend all criticism, because the criticism will generally come from those who want to be seen to be tough/clever, rather than those who accept weakness/tears as part of being human. Ironically, the criticism will come from those who cannot accept the harsh realities of life underpinning Rowling's words, the Voldermorts among us who cannot accept the realities of life and want to be, or at least be seen to be, untouchable/invulnerable/all powerful.

Love destroys evil. Under all the magic gubbins, is there any better message any writer could try to impart? As hard as it may be to believe in, as cheesy as it may appear when our cynicism offers the feeling of power we want to feel, is there anything more important than the belief that the spark of humanity that wont go out can save us from the darkness inherent in each of us?

Considering how the 'real world politik' has gone in the last decade, a fundamental belief in the potential goodness of humanity has never been more important than it is right now. And ultimately, I don;t think JKR has done anything but say that sort of thing,

I formed such thoughts while reading the books, And a 4 star film capping such thoughts off will do me fine, Because when reading the Deathly Hallows, I was concerned that Harry Potter might die. And that was purely the result of 'seeing him grow up' via the books and having the kind of reaction that would never have been possible had there not been enough in the books to pull that feeling from my too often cynical, care home/foster home raised soul. JK Rowling did something special.

Nuff said.

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ORIGINAL: Filmfan 2


In a forum full of reactionary bullshit, it's nice to read well informed, measured posts. A cracking job as-per-usual, sir.

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ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

You need to get back to your A-Game; reviewing movies truthfully, and honestly, and not sticking a 4 on every big bucks release just to sell issues.

You mean like they did with The Green Lantern and Transformers: The Dark Side of Pink Floyd?

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ORIGINAL: Soundburst

They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Ever.

It could have been in black and White and 30 mins long.

That's why the review is so disappointing. Doesn't take guts to review transformers honestly. . . .but potentially millions of fanboys getting all hissy was just too much for them to deal with.

Anyway. . .saw this review a mile off. Two months ago, a friend told me it would get 3. I bet him it would get four. Surprise surprise. I'm spot on.

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ORIGINAL: Soundburst

They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

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ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Or maybe the person who wrote the review really liked the movie. I know it's a cruel and unusual idea, Soundburst, but I think it holds more water than your argument which is predicated on nothing but conjecture.

I mean, by your rationale every single newspaper and movie reviews magazine that has given Harry Potter 7 a positive review are also pandering to the franchise's fanbase. And the general critical consensus is that this movie is pretty damn good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst


They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Ever.

It could have been in black and White and 30 mins long.

That's why the review is so disappointing. Doesn't take guts to review transformers honestly. . . .but potentially millions of fanboys getting all hissy was just too much for them to deal with.

Anyway. . .saw this review a mile off. Two months ago, a friend told me it would get 3. I bet him it would get four. Surprise surprise. I'm spot on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MovieKid

You will never defeat Soundburst. He joined the forum with the intention of immediately complaining on this thread, such was his dissapointment in Empire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

You need to get back to your A-Game; reviewing movies truthfully, and honestly, and not sticking a 4 on every big bucks release just to sell issues.

You mean like they did with The Green Lantern and Transformers: The Dark Side of Pink Floyd?

They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Ever.

It could have been in black and White and 30 mins long.

That's why the review is so disappointing. Doesn't take guts to review transformers honestly. . . .but potentially millions of fanboys getting all hissy was just too much for them to deal with.

Anyway. . .saw this review a mile off. Two months ago, a friend told me it would get 3. I bet him it would get four. Surprise surprise. I'm spot on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst

You need to get back to your A-Game; reviewing movies truthfully, and honestly, and not sticking a 4 on every big bucks release just to sell issues.

You mean like they did with The Green Lantern and Transformers: The Dark Side of Pink Floyd?

They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Ever.

It could have been in black and White and 30 mins long.

That's why the review is so disappointing. Doesn't take guts to review transformers honestly. . . .but potentially millions of fanboys getting all hissy was just too much for them to deal with.

Anyway. . .saw this review a mile off. Two months ago, a friend told me it would get 3. I bet him it would get four. Surprise surprise. I'm spot on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soundburst


They were NEVER going to risk the wrath of Harry Potter fanboys by giving the final film less than 4.

Ever.

It could have been in black and White and 30 mins long.

That's why the review is so disappointing. Doesn't take guts to review transformers honestly. . . .but potentially millions of fanboys getting all hissy was just too much for them to deal with.

Anyway. . .saw this review a mile off. Two months ago, a friend told me it would get 3. I bet him it would get four. Surprise surprise. I'm spot on.

Again Soundburst you still haven't answered the question. As you seem to know so much about this film and have already passed judgement on the review (review of a review, lol) I'll ask you again (although I already know the answer)

HAVE. YOU. SEEN. THE. FILM?

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ORIGINAL: bigollytg

jeezus you wanna be cinephiles irritate me with your moaning. oh its a big blockbuster sell out franchise I know lets rip the hell out of it so we look smart. If youve got nothing nice to say dont say it. i personally think im going to enjoy this film because the Harry pooter film are a cinematic staple. so stop moaning and try sitting back and enjoying a film for once.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigollytg

jeezus you wanna be cinephiles irritate me with your moaning. oh its a big blockbuster sell out franchise I know lets rip the hell out of it so we look smart. If youve got nothing nice to say dont say it. i personally think im going to enjoy this film because the Harry pooter film are a cinematic staple. so stop moaning and try sitting back and enjoying a film for once.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigollytg

jeezus you wanna be cinephiles irritate me with your moaning. oh its a big blockbuster sell out franchise I know lets rip the hell out of it so we look smart. If youve got nothing nice to say dont say it. i personally think im going to enjoy this film because the Harry pooter film are a cinematic staple. so stop moaning and try sitting back and enjoying a film for once.

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ORIGINAL: horribleives

Back to the film, anyone heard whether it's worth seeing in 3D or not?