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RE: Your star ratings are screwed

 
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RE: Your star ratings are screwed - 28/6/2011 1:07:05 PM   
mogel96

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 27/10/2009
From: Stevenage
Honestly who cares about star ratings? Surely it's the actual content of the review that matters, otherwise I would get an A in my media essay just for stamping one star for 'A Troll in Central Park' on to a piece of paper.

Regardless, as a Transformers fan I will be seeing this when it comes out just for the 3D spectacle and nothing else, and then most likely regret it soon afterwoulds just as I did with Avatar

(in reply to tommypocket)
Post #: 31
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:09:40 PM   
MoBiUGeArSkIn


Posts: 385
Joined: 3/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: theoriginalcynic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

It's not really. End of the day, if you're going to base your opinion on something it might as well be your own. Or, at the very least, a consensus.

This thread is going to descend into something soon enough.

I just hope Chris Hewitt realises he's about to get his ass kicked by Jason Statham, over the insulting of his fancy piece.

Prepdare to be Transported, Chris. Transported somewhere... painful.


Because he'd get a woman like that if he wasn't famous



You kidding me? He'd never NOT be famous

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Post #: 32
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:12:18 PM   
theoriginalcynic

 

Posts: 6521
Joined: 10/4/2007
quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn


quote:

ORIGINAL: theoriginalcynic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

It's not really. End of the day, if you're going to base your opinion on something it might as well be your own. Or, at the very least, a consensus.

This thread is going to descend into something soon enough.

I just hope Chris Hewitt realises he's about to get his ass kicked by Jason Statham, over the insulting of his fancy piece.

Prepdare to be Transported, Chris. Transported somewhere... painful.


Because he'd get a woman like that if he wasn't famous



You kidding me? He'd never NOT be famous


Why? He's not exactly a great actor.  Ok, he can do martial arts, so can millions of people worldwide.

(in reply to MoBiUGeArSkIn)
Post #: 33
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:16:29 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: theoriginalcynic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn


quote:

ORIGINAL: theoriginalcynic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

It's not really. End of the day, if you're going to base your opinion on something it might as well be your own. Or, at the very least, a consensus.

This thread is going to descend into something soon enough.

I just hope Chris Hewitt realises he's about to get his ass kicked by Jason Statham, over the insulting of his fancy piece.

Prepdare to be Transported, Chris. Transported somewhere... painful.


Because he'd get a woman like that if he wasn't famous



You kidding me? He'd never NOT be famous


Why? He's not exactly a great actor.  Ok, he can do martial arts, so can millions of people worldwide.



In The Expendables he looked like De Niro compared to everyone else. Mind, so did one of the church pews.

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Post #: 34
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:22:40 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
And he's not in this film - so let's not drag it off topic quite this early, please. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 35
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:24:35 PM   
darth silas


Posts: 4949
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: My living room
So the film is over TWO AND A HALF HOURS LONG.Why? why does a movie about giant robots hitting each other have to be so long?

Well i hated the first and didnt bother with the second so il give this one a miss as well.


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Post #: 36
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 1:31:58 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

And he's not in this film - so let's not drag it off topic quite this early, please


So after another ten pages or so of inane whingeing and people failing to grasp the concept that more than one person writes for Empire it'll be alright to veer sideways a bit? Cool.
Back to the movie, while story/humour-wise I can't see this being much better than the abysmal last one, it is quite refreshing to hear that the 3D version of a film is actually worth seeing for once. I might even buy some sweets.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 28/6/2011 1:32:38 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:33:18 PM   
jmebaby25

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 28/6/2006
From: Manchester
quote:

ORIGINAL: J_BUltimatum

TransFormers the TV show was about transforming robots beating the crap out of each other, with little or no plot on several occasions. The film pretty much the same. Were Empire going in to any of the TransFormer films expecting oscar winning material? Then obviously you are going to be disappointed. I know a few people that have seen the film now and they have come out pleased and have enjoyed the Bayhem. So far this year I have been more than disappointed with Empires reviews to date. The icing on the cake has to be that this is better than part 2, but recieves less stars????? Also it is a million times better than Avatar and you gave that stinking pile of blue crap 5 stars! Get your reviewers sorted out! If your reviews were made into a film then you would be the first to complain about all the continuity errors!


Couple of issues with this. The TV show was for children. Small children. This is why, and you were exactly right, they were able to make it be about little more than toys beating each other up. The movie however is 12A, so I hope I can be forgiven for expecting them to raise its substance up a notch.

Secondly, since when did well crafted story and exceptional action become mutually exclusive? Neither is the cinema as cheap as it used to be, nor is my time, so I choose to be selective with which films I'll see. Inception (and it's stellar critical and box office success) showed that great story, engaging characters and fantastic action can co-exist on screen. Lord of the Rings, The Empire Strikes Back, District 9 & the original Matrix film are all fine examples of this.

Whilst you're correct that it's probably far-fetched to expect Oscar winning material every time I step into the cinema... I don't think it's beyond reason to expect something better than Transformers 1&2.

< Message edited by jmebaby25 -- 28/6/2011 4:42:05 PM >


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Post #: 38
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:42:20 PM   
waltham1979


Posts: 1181
Joined: 18/3/2008
From: San-Diago, which is German for 'Whales virgina'...
I thought we had got beyond people reviewing the review?! Christ think I would rather we bring back the muppets selling cheap trainers and knock-off shit!!

Anyways; I like most people hated the second one, but due to sheer loyalty to my childhood and my strange fasination with watching things go BOOM, I shall be going to the cinema to watch this.

IMO films like this are what cinemas are made for. Big uber screen and music and noise so loud it makes your ears bleed whilst you sit their on a sugar rush from those slightly stale fizzy cola bottles. Why are we all so obsessed that every thing now HAS to have some complex plot??!! Their is place for the Inceptions of this world (one of my favourite films) but their is also a place surely for utterly non-sensical, i've just drunk four pints of Peroni with my mates, eye-candy films like this?!

That said like most people I haven't seen the film...so it really could be gash!!

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Post #: 39
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:44:58 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
You know, District 9 had a robot blowing shit up and it was Oscar nominated. So did Avatar for that matter.

The excuse that you can't make a robot movie and expect it to be Oscar worthy is nonsense.

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 28/6/2011 1:45:44 PM >


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Post #: 40
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:45:53 PM   
matty_b


Posts: 14520
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
OH LORD, WILL THE "WHY DUZ EVRY FILM HAV 2 B AN OSCAR WINNAHHHHHH?" COMPLAINTS EVER CEASE?

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze
Mattyb is a shining example of what the perfect Empire Forum member is.


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Post #: 41
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:50:10 PM   
jcthefirst


Posts: 4421
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: Bangor
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

You know, District 9 had a robot blowing shit up and it was Oscar nominated. So did Avatar for that matter.

The excuse that you can't make a robot movie and expect it to be Oscar worthy is nonsense.


See, now you're just trying to start a fight.

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Post #: 42
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:53:01 PM   
waltham1979


Posts: 1181
Joined: 18/3/2008
From: San-Diago, which is German for 'Whales virgina'...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

You know, District 9 had a robot blowing shit up and it was Oscar nominated. So did Avatar for that matter.

The excuse that you can't make a robot movie and expect it to be Oscar worthy is nonsense.


I wasn't saying that it can't be Oscar worthy at all. But District9 was a juxtoposition to Apartheid and Avatar was...well...Avatar.

I'm just saying that not every film HAS to be Oscar worthy, it doesn't HAVE to mean something. By the way I feel District9 and Inception are two of the finest films in the last decade; I just think their is also a place to enjoy films on a completely shallow level...the Transformers films are these. They aren't trying to be anything else so why should they be criticised for it?!

Transformers wearn't made to have any depth - so we can't criticise it for not having any depth. It would be like making Jordan take a maths test, then criticising her for having the wrong answers...it just makes no sense!! Lets just all enjoy the boobs!?

(that said she could be a genius for all I know but you get my point...)

_____________________________

I just wish stuff like, I don't know, the slow & systemic CRATERING of this country could inspire the same call-to-arms as Batman casting

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 43
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:56:59 PM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

OH LORD, WILL THE "WHY DUZ EVRY FILM HAV 2 B AN OSCAR WINNAHHHHHH?" COMPLAINTS EVER CEASE?


On another forum I frequent (sacre bleu) a member wrote up a 2000 word screed on what good criticism is - it was amazing, but I think this paragraph is particularly appropriate here -

quote:


There are a lot of misconceptions in common society about what a critic does and does not do. For some reason, people think that critics don't like movies because they're not all Oscar-bait dramas like The King's Speech, which is the one everyone loves to brandy about this year when a movie they don't like gets panned. People don't seem to realize that a good critic will judge a movie against how well it holds up against other movies of its type. Action movies are judged against action movies, romances against romances, etc. If critics didn't like Green Lantern, it's because they thought it failed by the expectations set by superhero films, not because it's not a period drama. This is part of the anti-intellectual "us vs. them" attitude that the general public seems to have developed towards film critics.

This is also because on a failure of many critics' part to do their jobs. Being so concerned with tomatometer scores and poster blurbs, modern day film critics are forgetting that their job, in part, is to act as an interpreter between filmmaker and audience. Every critic in the world loved No Country for Old Men, then the general public views it and gets angry because they don't "get" some of the themes and issues central to it. Someone on the Gen Chat thread a long time ago posted a description of this reaction much better than I can, but basically, there are some films which require a wide breadth of knowledge about themes, subtext, storytelling, cinematography, and general film history to understand and enjoy. A lot of "internet critics" are unwilling to put in the work required to have those qualities, and a lot of "real critics" are unwilling to put the knowledge they have to work. This is why Ebert is so popular. Someone described him earlier as the perfect midpoint between film fan and audience, and he really is. His commentary on films like Casablanca actually highten the experience of the movie, and give context that will cause more people to give the film a chance who otherwise wouldn't. It is your responsibility as a critic to add to the film experience. Most critics are too happy to simply give a plot summary and then a "I liked it!" without giving any reason or explanation.

On that same note, there's a problem with the readership, which sites like Rotten Tomatoes add to, where they won't actually read a review, but simply just look at a number and say "Oh, that must be objectively good." If they looked further, and the critic is doing their job, they might be able to say "Oh, well, Ebert liked this movie for X reasons, but that doesn't really seem like it would appeal to me." and then make a decision from there. Hell, it's even possible and common for one critic to give a positive review and another to give a negative review and cite the exact same reasons.


This needs to be in its own thread, locked and stickied, so everyone understands that what they are saying is not new or shocking. Every complainer rolls out the same complaints every time and every time they are invalid.


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

(in reply to matty_b)
Post #: 44
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 1:57:33 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: waltham1979


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

You know, District 9 had a robot blowing shit up and it was Oscar nominated. So did Avatar for that matter.

The excuse that you can't make a robot movie and expect it to be Oscar worthy is nonsense.


I wasn't saying that it can't be Oscar worthy at all. But District9 was a juxtoposition to Apartheid and Avatar was...well...Avatar.

I'm just saying that not every film HAS to be Oscar worthy, it doesn't HAVE to mean something. By the way I feel District9 and Inception are two of the finest films in the last decade; I just think their is also a place to enjoy films on a completely shallow level...the Transformers films are these. They aren't trying to be anything else so why should they be criticised for it?!

Transformers wearn't made to have any depth - so we can't criticise it for not having any depth. It would be like making Jordan take a maths test, then criticising her for having the wrong answers...it just makes no sense!! Lets just all enjoy the boobs!?

(that said she could be a genius for all I know but you get my point...)


Well Katie Price is a millionaire several times over, so you do have to wonder who is the mug.

Not every film has to be at an Oscar level, but Transformers devotes a huge amount of its running time to characters. They want you to engage with these characters. Plenty of summer blockbusters have come out which don't have a huge amount of depth, but make up for it with fun characters and well paced action. The last Transformers film restarted everytime all the comedy characters came together.

It should not be rocket science to make Transformers work - but you ever notice people still quote the animated movie but never the Bay flicks? That says a lot I think.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 45
RE: Your star ratings are screwed - 28/6/2011 2:04:13 PM   
odddaze

 

Posts: 934
Joined: 1/7/2007
To the people complaining that the review takes the film too seriously, I think the real problem is that the film takes itself too seriously, this should be big dumb fun, but it isn't it is trying to be more than that but can't because it's fucking Transformers, it's cars that turn into robots based on a toy line (which begs the question why people ever expected it to be good in the first place). Look how they try to cram all this drama into the trailer, it's just silly. Films like Star Trek, X-Men First Class, Spider-Man 1 & 2, the first Pirates movie all nailed the blockbuster science, they knew what they were and never tried to be more than that, Transformers thinks it's an eagle when it is actually a pigeon. And to those complaining about the star ratings not being consistent, grow up, that is the most childish way to attack this review.

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Post #: 46
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 2:04:50 PM   
plum bob

 

Posts: 203
Joined: 30/4/2006
I wish to add myself to the list of those thinking "WTF mate" when it comes to this film being better than ROTF but recieving one less star. Realistically, all that needs to be done is have the two ratings (the 2 stars for this and the 3 stars for ROTF) reversed which is how I would rate them. The first remains some of the most mindlessly entertaining fun I've had at the cinema in years. 2 & 3 each have the odd merit and the third suceeds in not having so many annoying characters (ala: the twins); but compared to the first, niether are anything to write home about... In that sense the Transformers trilogy is exactly the same as the Pirates trilogy... expect a truly terrible forth installment in a few years if that is the case!

(in reply to Empire Admin)
Post #: 47
RE: Transformers: Dark of the Moon - 28/6/2011 2:11:30 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: plum bob

I wish to add myself to the list of those thinking "WTF mate" when it comes to this film being better than ROTF but recieving one less star. Realistically, all that needs to be done is have the two ratings (the 2 stars for this and the 3 stars for ROTF) reversed which is how I would rate them.


What, you actually want to be included in a group of people who apparently can't read?

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Post #: 48
RE: Great! - 28/6/2011 2:23:37 PM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halfling
so I can leave my brain at the door


ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

Entertainment does not need to be stupid, come on people stop feeding the machine


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.
Post #: 49
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:26:14 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: Benson The Grouch

So it's better than Revenge Of the Fallen yet gets one star less than it's predecessor's 3-star review? How does that work then?

Or is it a case of Empire once again changing their minds drastically after the fact. I can understand a film being slightly under or overrated on first viewing but you seem to say that Revenge was pretty decent at the time and now it's seemingly the worst film of all time? ('It's better, but then, what isn't?)

I seem to remember back in the day a five star review for Phantom Menace that got reappraised to 3-star in a re-review. Not only that but you insinuated that you now thought it was BETTER despite taking two stars off?

Is it because you like to cosy up to your reader's and don't like it when you get it wrong?

I stopped paying attention to Empire reviews a long time ago and for good reason. They mean less than nothing.


Pick up the latest issue. Check out the production credits. Note how many people write for Empire.
That should answer your question.

_____________________________

www.hollywoodunbound.co.uk - some nonsense about alien film directors and musclebound man-children.
Post #: 50
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:26:26 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54577
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Benson The Grouch

So it's better than Revenge Of the Fallen yet gets one star less than it's predecessor's 3-star review? How does that work then?




Out of interest did you read any other post on the thread discussing this before actually posting?


_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome
Post #: 51
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:27:09 PM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
Okay, I want everyone to pay attention.

  1. EMPIRE IS NOT A MONOLITH OF OPINION - different reviewers = different opinions = different scores.
  2. THE SCORE IS A GUIDELINE - THE MEAT OF THE OPINION IS IN THE REVIEW. READ THE REVIEW.


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.
Post #: 52
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:29:31 PM   
Drew_231

 

Posts: 877
Joined: 7/5/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Benson The Grouch

So it's better than Revenge Of the Fallen yet gets one star less than it's predecessor's 3-star review? How does that work then?


I seem to remember back in the day a five star review for Phantom Menace that got reappraised to 3-star in a re-review.

I stopped paying attention to Empire reviews a long time ago and for good reason. They mean less than nothing.


So you ignored every single post prior to yours in this thread for a start, and then you confused Phantom Menace with Clones

thats two strikes right there
Post #: 53
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:31:56 PM   
matty_b


Posts: 14520
Joined: 19/10/2005
From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
DON'T MENTION THE "C" WORD.



not that one, the other one.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze
Mattyb is a shining example of what the perfect Empire Forum member is.


(in reply to Drew_231)
Post #: 54
RE: What were you expecting you idiot??? - 28/6/2011 2:32:07 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: waltham1979
I'm just saying that not every film HAS to be Oscar worthy, it doesn't HAVE to mean something. By the way I feel District9 and Inception are two of the finest films in the last decade; I just think their is also a place to enjoy films on a completely shallow level...the Transformers films are these. They aren't trying to be anything else so why should they be criticised for it?!

Transformers wearn't made to have any depth - so we can't criticise it for not having any depth. It would be like making Jordan take a maths test, then criticising her for having the wrong answers...it just makes no sense!! Lets just all enjoy the boobs!?

(that said she could be a genius for all I know but you get my point...)


Exactly, and surprisingly, this is what the critics did with Fast Five. They acclaimed it for being shallow fun.


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to waltham1979)
Post #: 55
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:33:36 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5055
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
I'm quite enjoying these comments, they remind me of that Simpsons epsisode when the FBI try in vain to explain to Homer that his new name's Thompson.

< Message edited by horribleives -- 28/6/2011 2:34:01 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 56
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:36:50 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
I'm pretty damn sure that this thread will be more fun than Dark of the Moon.


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to horribleives)
Post #: 57
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:38:25 PM   
theoriginalcynic

 

Posts: 6521
Joined: 10/4/2007
quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

DON'T MENTION THE "C" WORD.



not that one, the other one.


CRAP lol

(in reply to matty_b)
Post #: 58
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:39:44 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Benson The Grouch

So it's better than Revenge Of the Fallen yet gets one star less than it's predecessor's 3-star review? How does that work then?

Or is it a case of Empire once again changing their minds drastically after the fact. I can understand a film being slightly under or overrated on first viewing but you seem to say that Revenge was pretty decent at the time and now it's seemingly the worst film of all time? ('It's better, but then, what isn't?)

I seem to remember back in the day a five star review for Phantom Menace that got reappraised to 3-star in a re-review. Not only that but you insinuated that you now thought it was BETTER despite taking two stars off?

Is it because you like to cosy up to your reader's and don't like it when you get it wrong?

I stopped paying attention to Empire reviews a long time ago and for good reason. They mean less than nothing.


Phantom Menace got four stars in the magazine.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

Post #: 59
RE: Selective Empire Memory. Again - 28/6/2011 2:41:01 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
MOAR STUPID POSTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 60
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