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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 5/9/2011 1:25:16 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2061
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
According to DC, most continuity is going to stay more or less intact across the board. Whilst on a nuts-and-bolts level that can't possibly be true - Superman and the Flash never married, for instance, and there doesn't appear to have been a Justice Society anymore - I think the general gist is, the storylines occurred even if they didn't pan out exactly as read (so Superman still fought Doomsday and died, even though he wasn't going out with Lois, etc).

Batman has been around longer than Superman now, which I quite like; I guess we can compress Morrison's 15-year timeframe into 10 years now (five pre-JL, five post-JL) but other than that it still works.

Maybe it's only because I've been reading regular, monthly titles for about ten years, but none of this bothers me. I enjoyed Justice League, and I liked the "year one" approach. Part of me wishes they'd carried that across the whole line, but then they wouldn't have Nightwing or Morrison's Bat-epic or the multiple Green Lanterns, etc. I don't need to have the entire comics history spelled out for me, I'm happy to just wing it and enjoy each story as they come, and right now they look like some good stories.

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Post #: 121
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 5/9/2011 2:35:34 PM   
Invader_Ace


Posts: 1588
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc
Superman and the Flash never married


Woah. 

So anyone pick any of these up?  Any good?  i'm thinking about giving Wonder Woman a shot.

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Post #: 122
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 5/9/2011 6:11:48 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
It's only Justice League out so far. The other 51 titles will be rolled out over the coming weeks, with a big bunch of them being released midnight on Tuesday.

To be honest, I wasn't aware Superman/The Flash were actually married so I'm not too fussed about them getting rid of that aspect. Worked for Spider-Man (though the execution left something to be desired)

I think the fanboys will keep buying these titles no matter what. It's not the first time the Superman title has been relaunched anyway, is it? What DC are trying to do here is bring in new readers, because the small amount they've been left with after a decade or more of pandering to the fanboy dollar just isn't sustainable. It's a bold move, time will tell if it was a brave one...

Lame reference there. You're welcome!

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Post #: 123
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 6/9/2011 2:49:49 PM   
Wild about Wilder


Posts: 1674
Joined: 9/4/2010
From: Hertfordshire
Which Flash are we talking about as both were married & i'm not even including Jay Garrick (Golden Age Flash) here & both had children & in Barrys case Grand-children who went on to have super powers.

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Post #: 124
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 7/9/2011 11:55:25 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3118
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc
Superman and the Flash never married


I've read that they're going to make Supes more alien like. Looking at humanity as an outsider not quite understanding humans. That's why they retconned being married to Lois. Doesn't make sense to me to be honest. He was supposed to have been raied by humans since a baby, how can he not understand them?


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Post #: 125
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 7/9/2011 1:33:22 PM   
Darth Marenghi

 

Posts: 3239
Joined: 10/10/2010
From: Manchester

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invader_Ace

quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc
Superman and the Flash never married


Woah.†







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Post #: 126
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 7/9/2011 6:57:18 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vadersville

quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc
Superman and the Flash never married


I've read that they're going to make Supes more alien like. Looking at humanity as an outsider not quite understanding humans. That's why they retconned being married to Lois. Doesn't make sense to me to be honest. He was supposed to have been raied by humans since a baby, how can he not understand them?




That does sound rather poor. I thought part of the premise behind him was that although he was alien in origin he was the best of humanity? Are they now going to make him some bland alien creature, and as britesparc states if he was raised as a human how can he not understand humanity?

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Post #: 127
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 7/9/2011 9:57:36 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Action Comic 1 actually doesn't seem to give the presentation mentioned. It is quite good in that it appears to have returned the characters to an early twenties situation with Superman himself still coming into his powers, as such he is more a leap tall buildings rather than fly sort of person at the moment although not a whole lot of character development in one comic (and I didn't even have to buy it, a friend just came around and gave me a copy as they gave him two at the comic shop ).

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Post #: 128
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 8/9/2011 12:52:39 PM   
Wild about Wilder


Posts: 1674
Joined: 9/4/2010
From: Hertfordshire
Morrison's probably the only 1 they'd let try & get away with this shit!
Also see Johns is now gonna try & breath life into Aquaman after G.L & Flash in the short term it probably will do well BUT! in the long term I just don't see it serviving.

< Message edited by Wild about Wilder -- 8/9/2011 12:55:08 PM >

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Post #: 129
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 9/9/2011 10:42:42 AM   
britesparc


Posts: 2061
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
I've not read Action 1 yet, so I can't comment (other than to say, as it's written by Morrison, I know it will be excellent). As for the marriage issue, I think almost all married characters are now single, and have never married; in Clark Kent and Barry Allen's cases, their former wives now have new boyfriends.

Jay Garrick Flash likely no longer exists, other than in the recently-announced Earth 2 Justice Society. Wally West appears to be in limbo as no one is mentioning him; I assume he still exists as we've been told Nightwing's history with the Teen Titans is still largely valid, but I don't know what he's up to or anything.

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Post #: 130
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 9/9/2011 3:48:31 PM   
Invader_Ace


Posts: 1588
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darth Marenghi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invader_Ace
quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc
Superman and the Flash never married

Woah. 




Phew!  Finally, Joke Validation!

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Post #: 131
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 9/9/2011 5:32:13 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I've bought a couple of these #1s - JL, Swamp Thing, Stormwatch, Animal Man and Action Comics (as well as intending to buy Batman, WW and a few others - just waiting for them to be delivered. Kind of nuts that it's cheaper to order them from the US than buy them here.

I've *ahem* acquired some others and giving them a read now (I'll buy anything I like).

Batgirl: This got a lot of decent reviews from various comic sites but was quite poor in my opinion. I don't really see the purpose of this drastic change, particularly when DC also have Batwoman, another red-haired Battress. The story itself is ok, the art is mediocre. In fact, of all the DC books I've read so far, the art is almost uniformly poor and all very similar to one another. DC need more variety art-wise, some of this stuff is just terrible.

Justice League International: Pretty much awful all round. Like a bad 90s comic. I found it odd that the Russian and Chinese heroes didn't get along while the American tried to get on with everybody. Not exactly analogous to the real world, is it?!

Batwing: I actually thought this was ok. The art - while at least different - lacked a lot in detail/background and the story itself is essentially "What if Batman was set in Africa". There's also the questionable idea of this guy being "mentored/financially supported" by Bruce Wayne, not exactly an historically sensitive parallel to establish. Still, I liked the fundamentals and the ending was effective and nicely done. There's scope for something good here: it's like combining Batman with Dysart/Ponticelli's underappreciated and recently cancelled Vertigo series Unknown Soldier. Hell, they should have considered getting them to do this!

Detective Comics: I find this Tony Daniels guy very hit-and-miss and though this was nothing special, it was an effective and well-told Batman story. The ending was also intriguing and enough to make me put this on the purchase list for at least one arc. It could have just as easily been in Detective #882 however.

Static Shock: Pointless, really. Some nice dialogue but let down by boring, cliched plot and terrible art.

Green Arrow: Same as above. Awful, awful art. Really bad. Some ok character/plot ideas in here though, could have done better with a decent artist.

Hawk and Dove: Wow. It's like watching an episode of Saved by the Bell or something. Ridiculously 90s. Maybe it'll take with the nostalgic crowd.

Men of War: This was ok. Someone's been reading Garth Ennis' war comics. The art was decent too. Not mindblowing but good storytelling and I like the idea of placing soldiers/war stories into the superhero world and showing things from a different angle.

Overall the impression I'm getting here is DC are hedging their bets with two approaches to comics. There's the nostalgic 90s love-in with the like or Jurgens, Liefeld, Lobdell on the mid-tier titles like Green Arrow, JLI etc. - all with uniformly terrible artwork, I should add - and then there's the more progressive, modern, Vertigo-influenced stuff from the likes of Snyder, Lemire, Cornell and Morrison on their 'edgier' or dark titles. Geoff Johns seems to lie right in the middle of these two 'styles'.  Maybe DC think that the move away from 90s style comics - where they used to sell in the millions rather than the thousands of today - might have been a mistake and the readers left in droves with the advent of Vertigo/Wildstorm style comics. Yet it's these latter comics that are the best sellers today.

It will be interesting to see how things progess. I honestly can't see stuff like Green Arrow, Hawk & Dove and Static Shock lasting very long at all. Maybe the kids on digital will like this stuff but for me, it's a pain to read and horrible to look at to boot.

< Message edited by furrybastard -- 9/9/2011 5:57:39 PM >

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Post #: 132
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 9/9/2011 10:27:53 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Noooooo! Hawk & Dove! Liefeld! Badly drawn, in fact awfully drawn doodle from the back of a bored high school pupils notebook. Half the time it is quite literally like the characters are just stickers stuck on a background, only not quite in line with it. Hands and feet! What are these things I only draw blobs and sausages. There are also at least three panels where the certain characters heads are quite blatantly not connected to the body. You may be able to guess not a fan and this is a dire, dire comic.

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Post #: 133
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 10/9/2011 12:23:26 PM   
Wild about Wilder


Posts: 1674
Joined: 9/4/2010
From: Hertfordshire
LIEFIELD! Oh no does this mean big breasts & not just on the women ???

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Post #: 134
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 10/9/2011 12:27:31 PM   
BudBaxter

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 31/1/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard


Green Arrow: Same as above. Awful, awful art. Really bad. Some ok character/plot ideas in here though, could have done better with a decent artist.



Glad it wasn't just me then. The whole thing comes across like a Saturday morning kids cartoon. Nice cover art, but the rest of it was appalling!

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Post #: 135
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 10/9/2011 1:13:42 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: BudBaxter


quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard


Green Arrow: Same as above. Awful, awful art. Really bad. Some ok character/plot ideas in here though, could have done better with a decent artist.



Glad it wasn't just me then. The whole thing comes across like a Saturday morning kids cartoon. Nice cover art, but the rest of it was appalling!


Hmmm.... thinking about it now, maybe that's the idea! Some of these comics are definitely aimed at different ages. I did like elements of the story and the general direction they're taking the character in, but it wasn't good enough to make me want to read any more.

I wonder if the bad art in a lot of these #1s has something to do with so many of the artists being rushed to hit their deadlines. After the initial announcement, there were some rumblings from creatives (in particular, artists) that they haven't been given enough lead-in time to get this stuff ready. A couple of artists were dropped/switched around as well. It's quite obvious in Detective Comics, with some of Daniels art being really good (that first splash page is lovely) and some parts being sloppy.

I really do think DC needs to start broadening their range of artists. Marvel has some really good, distinctinve guys; some of 'em are working on second/third tier titles and delivering the goods. They need to start looking at people like Duncan Fegredo, Chris Weston, Darick Robertson and others from Image/Dark Horse titles, as well as poaching people from Marvel.

< Message edited by furrybastard -- 10/9/2011 1:14:59 PM >

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Post #: 136
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 10/9/2011 5:50:25 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
OMAC? Who thought it was a good idea to bring this one back. I have to admit it fails pretty significantly in that the art is patchy and the story really fails to engage on any level. I really can see an awful lot of these comics disappearing quite rapidly (in about 10 issues if not sooner), Then again early days.

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Post #: 137
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 7:22:22 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2061
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
Okay, well I've read a bunch of the early launch issues so here's a brief summation of my opinion...

Action Comics - as excellent as I assumed it would be. It was action-packed, it was funny, it was full of the sort of hi-intensity dialogue that I really love from Morrison. Plus, it was an interesting take on Supes, one we've not really seen before, bringing the early interpretation of him bang up to date. I dug it, and I can't wait for more.

Swamp Thing - gorgeous art, quite haunting. I worry that as an opening issue it was too exposition-heavy, but it was suitably creepy and interesting.

JLI - I liked it! It was funny, it was fast-paced, it had quite an interesting concept (UN-sponsored superhero team). But I think the art let it down.

Stormwatch Ė Iíve never read any of the original Stormwatch or Authority, although I'm vaguely familiar with some of the characters, so this was like getting in on the ground floor for me. I love the idea of a super-team essentially policing the earth for centuries without being known of, and I like the idea of Jíonn being covertly on two teams as a public JL member and a secret SW member. Like Swamp Thing, though, I felt like most of the book was exposition, but it certainly warrants reading the second issue.

Detective Comics Ė a mixed bag for me. I quite like Daniel, to be honest, although I know heís not everyoneís cup of tea. The basic story was good, and felt like ďclassicĒ Batman, if you know what I mean. The Joker felt suitably creepy and I liked the end. The art was largely terrific, barring some odd panels here and there Ė probably Danielís best art. What I didnít like, and this might be me getting fanboy-y, was how inconsistently it seemed to fit with the Bat status-quo. Okay, new universe, etc, but Batmanís history is largely unchanged; he felt unsure here, as if heíd not faced the Joker that many times before, and I didnít like the fact that the police were shooting at a prominent member of the Justice League. I donít want a plotted history of the new DCU, but I would like to know more about Batmanís history; how long heís been active, when Robin first appeared, etc. Hopefully future comics will fill me in.

Batgirl - it was okay. I was disappointed, to be honest, because I love Babs and Simone is a great writer. But it was all a bit "meh", it felt like nothing happened, and Babs felt quite different (maybe too different) from the strong character she'd been as Oracle. I liked the art, but not the costume.

Batwing - it was okay, again. It sort of felt a bit empty, and too much of a set-up. The art was a mixed bag, for the most part excellent but occasionally light on detail. I really like the concept of the Batman of Africa, but so far he's not really got much of a character. I also have some slight reservations about the subject matter, which has echoes of real-life African massacres, and Iím not totally sure if thatís a good basis for a comic book villain, especially in a book written by an American. But thatís a vague pointy-headed thing which I can get past.

Thatís it for now. Iíve not read any of the others. Iím hoping at least to read Men of War, OMAC, and Animal Man. Iím really, really looking forward to Batman, Nightwing, and Batman & Robin, and will also buy the first issues of Teen Titans, Superman, maybe Flash, maybe Wonder Woman. And Iíll definitely keep Action on my list, and Iím going to stick with Batgirl because I trust Simone to make it better. All in all, quite pleased with the books so far, but not swept off my feet. I do really like the new universe, though, and the sense of it really, really feeling like one shared universe, even though thereís not much in the way of characters popping up in several places.


< Message edited by britesparc -- 11/9/2011 7:23:53 PM >


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Post #: 138
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 7:29:27 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
The problem I am having is that it is neither one thing nor the other, it is not a reboot and at the same time it is not a continuation of previous stories. From these first issues it feels like you are coming in half way through the story (other than in Action Comic which does feel new) for example Hawk and Dove refers to events in Brightest Day, Swamp Thing to events in Brightest Day and the Search for Swamp Thing, Stormwatch had hints to previous events but was a mess, Batgirl referred to many prior events which apparently now no longer happened. It is an incredibly messy "reboot" in that the reboot only appears to relate to certain characters such as Superman whilst other characters are only slightly altered.

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Post #: 139
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 7:32:56 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2061
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
Apart from Swamp Thing, I didn't feel that at all. It felt like all the issues jumped in mid-story, but I wasn't really supposed to have read the story. OK, maybe Batgirl helps if you know beforehand she was paralysed, but I think the universe as a whole benefits from being already established.

And I don't know what you mean by "apparently never happened"; I think we're OK to assume that most DCU events still occurred in some form until contradicted by a new story.

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Post #: 140
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 8:00:20 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18328
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Although if you have Superman essentially the only character starting from scratch again does this mean that in this new version he is one of the powerful but low tier heroes? From this all the other characters have a lot of history behind them apart from him.

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Post #: 141
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 8:35:19 PM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6423
Joined: 20/6/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

The problem I am having is that it is neither one thing nor the other, it is not a reboot and at the same time it is not a continuation of previous stories.



Confusing ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia
It is an incredibly messy "reboot" in that the reboot only appears to relate to certain characters such as Superman whilst other characters are only slightly altered.


It just makes thing's harder for a new crowd to get in on things.


I thought this was going to be a proper re-boot. Going back to the start of the main characters stories and eventually having the spin off stories occurring at a latter date. May sound extreme to the hardcore but yeah I thought we'd see Batman nearer the start and eventually one day see a new Nightwing emerge. How naive.

I was in Forbidden Planet on the weekend and had a flick through, most of the comics look the same. Thought a few would get some more dramatic design updates. Meh.

Any way errmm this Flashpoint thing, is that an event that leads to everything being rebooted? Should I read that first?

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Post #: 142
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 11/9/2011 8:58:45 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I'm not sure if you have to read Flashpoint first, to be honest.

The more I read these, the more I get the impression of rather sloppy, rushed planning on DCs part. Do the writers know what the overall plan is here!?

And I think what you say about how these comics look is a good one. Other than the fact these comics all have a #1 on the cover, there's nothing to really set them apart from anything DC was publishing last month. It seems more and more like it's exclusively a PR push than anything else. All style, no substance. I suppose the digital angle might be DCs priority here which is probably why they're not talking about it very much!

Ultimately this doesn't effect me too much. I'm glad it's given certain creators a shot at getting some serious mainstream attention and I'm glad to see Animal Man and Swamp Thing getting so much buzz.

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Post #: 143
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 12/9/2011 10:52:17 AM   
Wild about Wilder


Posts: 1674
Joined: 9/4/2010
From: Hertfordshire
I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that the original writers were Moore & Morrison ?
I myself am going to be quite interested to see the new JL Dark with Constantine & Shade The Changing Man in it especially as Milligan's doing it.

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Post #: 144
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 12/9/2011 12:58:42 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild about Wilder

I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that the original writers were Moore & Morrison ?
I myself am going to be quite interested to see the new JL Dark with Constantine & Shade The Changing Man in it especially as Milligan's doing it.


Moore and Morrison were the seminal writers on both those series but neither of them were the original writers. Len Wein's Swamp Thing is fondly remembered, and after Moore the series was written by, amongst others, Grant Morrison & Mark Millar and Brian K. Vaughan.

Animal Man never really recovered after Morrison's run. He didn't give anyone much room to manoeuvre after that last issue though, pretty much wrote it into a corner!

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Post #: 145
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 13/9/2011 2:25:32 AM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I quite enjoyed OMAC. Good art (I like the Kirby riffing) and the thin story served the purpose: good, shallow fun. Will have a look at the next issue anyway.

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Post #: 146
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 13/9/2011 1:37:57 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2061
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
I think the relaunch could have been handled better in terms of its beginnings (ie Flashpoint) and also in explaining, especially to new readers, what the status quo is. For instance, Action Comics is a sort-of origin tale because it's set in the past. Justice League is set in the past. Pretty much everything else is set in the present.

I think they benefit, as I said, from starting in media res, as it gives the stories a sense of urgency. For the most part I don't think you need to know what's come before, but some books - Swamp Thing, Batgirl, possibly Nightwing judging from the preview - are quite expositionary, which can be off-putting to newcomers.

Basically, despite being something of a continuity maven, at the moment I'm ignoring it, except when it jars with what I'm reading (eg Detective, felt like an early-years tale but apparently is set in the present).

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Post #: 147
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 13/9/2011 2:27:30 PM   
Darth Marenghi

 

Posts: 3239
Joined: 10/10/2010
From: Manchester

quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild about Wilder

I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that the original writers were Moore & Morrison ?
I myself am going to be quite interested to see the new JL Dark with Constantine & Shade The Changing Man in it especially as Milligan's doing it.


Moore and Morrison were the seminal writers on both those series but neither of them were the original writers. Len Wein's Swamp Thing is fondly remembered, and after Moore the series was written by, amongst others, Grant Morrison & Mark Millar and Brian K. Vaughan.

Animal Man never really recovered after Morrison's run. He didn't give anyone much room to manoeuvre after that last issue though, pretty much wrote it into a corner!



I suppose what Wilder meant is that part of the attention must come from them being the major characters (bar Morpheus from The Sandman) of the original Vertigo wave.

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Post #: 148
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 13/9/2011 3:08:19 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
Ah, I see. I'v always thought Swamp Thing belonged in the DCU to be honest, think it was a mistake moving him to the isolated Vertigo universe. I guess it would have caused too many contradictions for Hellblazer had Swampy remained where he was, but the DCU is where his best work was done by Moore et al. I mean, Moore had Swamp Thing meeting everyone from Batman and Superman to teaming up with forgotten third tier characters!

I DO think Constantine belongs in the Vertigo 'world' though. It'll be interesting to see how he's fit into the superhero universe now. Peter Milligan is a good writer, he'll most likely want to use Constantine the way he should be used: as a mouthpiece for taking the piss and causing trouble.

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Post #: 149
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 13/9/2011 4:37:35 PM   
jcthefirst


Posts: 4429
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From: Bangor
Picked up Action Comics and Detective Comics today. Hoping for great things.

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