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DC Universe to reboot?!?

 
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DC Universe to reboot?!? - 31/5/2011 10:28:01 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
There's been a massive amount of speculation over the past few weeks that something big was being planned by DC for when Flashpoint finished and Newsarama just confirmed it:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/DC-Universe-Reboot-Announcement-110531.html

Pretty big news if you ask me!

Very mixed feelings about this and I suppose it will become clearer in the forthcoming weeks / months but here are a few of my initial reactions

Jim Lee and Geoff Johns on Justice League is a great call provided he can stick to a regular schedule!

No Dark Knight / Boy Wonder in that case!

Will all continuity be reset or will this be on a different Earth with DC ignore the existing Earth for the foreseable future?

Why go through Brighetest Day to resurrect certain characters and then totally reboot?

I'm surprised they are rebooting Action comics numbering with issue 1000 in reach.

Is this permanent or a Heroes Reborn / Age of Apocalypse deal?


< Message edited by Rob -- 1/6/2011 9:32:39 AM >


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 1:48:11 AM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
Well, at least they're adventurous!  Not sure if it'll work out. I find that depends mostly on the quality of the comics than anything else.  I think rebooting Action and Detective (which has been great lately and the ONLY DC title to be incrementally increasing sales on a month-to-month basis) is a shame. Saying that, I'm sure they'll be back to the original numbering in time for #1000.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob
There's been a massive amount of speculation over the past few weeks that something big was being planned by DC for when Flashpoint finished and Newsarama just confirmed it:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/DC-Universe-Reboot-Announcement-110531.html


I think it was Bleeding Cool that broke this news; not sure if that forced DCs hand with the announcement or what.

quote:

Jim Lee and Geoff Johns on Justice League is a great call provided he can stick to a regular schedule!


Apparently Lee has been working on this for quite some time so hopefully it won't b plagued by delays like a lot of his other titles over the last few years!

quote:

Will all continuity be reset or will this be on a different Earth with DC ignore the existing Earth for theforeseable future?


Looks like Green Lantern is staying in continuity anyway if this is accurate...

And Batman tends to be left alone in general in regards to this stuff. I can't imagine they'll mess with Morrison's titles.

quote:

Why go through Brighetest Day to resurrect certain characters and then totally reboot?


*ahem* Why, indeed.

quote:

Is this permanent or a Heroes Reborn / Age of Apocalypse deal?


I imagine that'll depend largely on sales. Though if they hype is to be believed, it looks like they're pretty much full steam ahead.

The bigger story here is DC deciding to go day-and-date with digital release. Can't imagine a lot of comic shops are going to be pleased about that (though, in fairness, it was inevitable).

I'm looking forward to seeing how Marvel try and either a) jump on the bandwagon and claim they had the idea first and/or b) desperately attempt to hi-jack the news with BIG news on how the next event will change the Marvel Universe and nothing WILL EVER BE THE SAME EVER AGAIN!!

(in reply to Rob)
Post #: 2
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 1:59:25 AM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
Some details emerging on CBR (Click)...

"...the #1 launches will be accompanied by a major reboot of continuity with many pieces of DC's current status quo being rewritten and undone including character relationships and even the existence of some cast members. Included in the 52 series will be:
* A new title starring Superman written by Grant Morrison.

* Birds of Prey #1 - This new ongoing series will not feature the work of longtime "BoP" writer Gail Simone. In fact, many tried and true approaches to books will be getting a second look at DC in September.

* Teen Titans #1 - The new start for the teen team will be written by "Red Robin" scribe Fabian Nicieza.

* Justice Society of America #1 - Only one of a number of current titles that will welcome a creative team shift, the future of the original superhero team will apparently not involve current writer Marc Guggenheim.

* Wonder Woman #1 - Don't expect the recent changes from writer J. Michael Straczynski to stick when the Amazing Amazon sees another new #1 hit.

* Green Lantern #1 - Even with a new #1, Green Lantern remains in Johns' hands, and readers can expect the effects of major crossovers like "Blackest Night" to stay in place moving forward.

* Hawkman #1 - While fans have known a "Hawkman" series by James Robinson has been in the works since the writer mentioned it on a panel at New York Comic Con, Bleeding Cool's Rich Johnston has been reporting the rumor that the book will be drawn by "Batman & Robin" and "Outsiders" artist Philip Tan.

* Aquaman #1 - No surprises here. The already announced series featuring the sea king by Johns and Ivan Reis will be part of the relaunch wave.
The other seismic shakeup that remains unconfirmed is whether long-standing titles "Action Comics" and "Detective Comics" would also renumber with brand new first issues. However, at this time, CBR has found no confirmation one way or the other on the fate of those titles. DC Comics offered no comment on the above information."

Morrison on Superman? That'll do nicely.

< Message edited by furrybastard -- 1/6/2011 2:04:20 AM >

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Post #: 3
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 9:49:45 AM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
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Yeah I forgot to mention the day and date digital release schedule which is fairly massive in it's own right. To be honest I think it has to be done.

I've been collecting comics for years now and there are certain series that I will collect no matter the creative team, no matter the numbering and no matter how amazing / crap the quality is. Batman and Detective are the most obvious examples for me and I'll absolutely continue to buy them in print. However, there's also the series that I dip in and out of and having the option to buy them digitally is for me a real bonus.

I know that retailers are probably despairing over this news but if nothing else putting a #1 on something inevitably causes a sales spike so they should see some benefit. I've only just got an iPad and I've already spent loads on digital comics some of which I also own in print and others that I wouldn't ordinarily buy.

I think the digital distribution side of things is the correct move from DC.

As for the reboot;

Well Jim Lee has tweeted that he "won't f*** this up" which is encouraging. To be fair Lee is my favourite artist so I'll be on-board for this without a doubt

I really can't see them rebooting Batman dramatically given the stunning work that Morrison's been doing.

Johns and Reis on Aquaman was already announced but I'l certainly be giving that a shot

_____________________________

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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 11:50:14 AM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
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From: Manchester
Like most people here, I'm of two minds about this.  Partly, it's got me excited, with the prospect of new series with new creatives, and a bold new direction for the universe as a whole.

But then I'm really nervous that it will mess up various continuity aspects that I love, primarily the Batman universe, which has been nurtured so well by Morrison for the past few years.  I mean, he's tied continuity into that so strongly, that any change risks undermining everything he's done.  I'm even upset they've redone the costume design from Incorporated; there's a genuine in-story reason for Bruce to be wearing his new costume, so why would he go back to the old one?

I guess these are just fanboy whines, but it does give me pause.  I'm reserving judgement until the books actually come out, and the explanations are offered.  But right now, however excited I am for various titles and creators (e.g. Morrison on Superman!!!), any wide-ranging change is disconcerting to someone who's actually invested in the status quo.


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Post #: 5
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 1:16:23 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: britesparc

Like most people here, I'm of two minds about this. Partly, it's got me excited, with the prospect of new series with new creatives, and a bold new direction for the universe as a whole.

But then I'm really nervous that it will mess up various continuity aspects that I love, primarily the Batman universe, which has been nurtured so well by Morrison for the past few years. I mean, he's tied continuity into that so strongly, that any change risks undermining everything he's done. I'm even upset they've redone the costume design from Incorporated; there's a genuine in-story reason for Bruce to be wearing his new costume, so why would he go back to the old one?

I guess these are just fanboy whines, but it does give me pause. I'm reserving judgement until the books actually come out, and the explanations are offered. But right now, however excited I am for various titles and creators (e.g. Morrison on Superman!!!), any wide-ranging change is disconcerting to someone who's actually invested in the status quo.



I think DC have been pretty smart announcing that. I've been trawling through the internet to see what the reaction is and this seems to have more fans excited than Lee on JLA. On the other hand a lot of people are saying they are done with DC but anyone who's read DC comics for a long time will certainly give it a go in my opinion.

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Post #: 6
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 2:24:22 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
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From: Manchester
I'm a little concerned about the validity of that, though, as it appeared on CBR as part of a "leak" along with other news, e.g. Fabian Nicieza on Teen Titans.  And he's already come out and said that no, he's not writing Teen Titans, and to take any news not officially released by DC with a pinch of salt.

Unless the Superman thing was an official announcement?  I really bloody hope so.  I've got dreams now of Morrison writing Batman and Superman simultaneously.


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 2:41:25 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
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That's actually a really good point. Fingers crossed though!

_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Post #: 8
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 4:03:09 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
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From: Ireland
I seem to recall an interview with Morrison whre he stated he'd be going back to doing 'something' with Superman in the near future. Nobody assumed that meant an ongoing title (and who knows if that's what this is?). Having Morrison writing the head Batman and Superman books would be fantastic. But then with Johns on The League, GL and Aquaman (a character I can never envision being successful, no matter the creative team) DC is putting a lot of eggs in, well, two baskets!

I very much doubt DC are going to screw around with the Batman continuity too much. This seems to be a move to streamline the DC continuity after many failed attempts, making it easier for new readers to come on board. They're not going to stray too far with either Batman or Supes because most people have at least a vague understanding of their origins.

I also find it hard to believe that all these people shouting about how they're going to give up DC comics are full of B.S. Very few of them ever seem to actually stick to their guns.  DC is making a move on 'the silent majority', the comic readers who aren't debating minutiae of comics on message boards and the like and just want well-told, quality stories (and that remains to be seen!).

For too long, DC (and Marvel to a lesser extent) have been gearing all their comics at this very vocal fanboy crowd; it's about time someone opens the door to let everyone else in.

(in reply to Rob)
Post #: 9
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 4:10:15 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
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From: Manchester
After agonising over this all day, I've decided I'm very excited and optimistic, and the only thing that's worrying me a little bit is how it will effective Batman.  Like you say, probably not a lot.  But overall, I'm really getting behind this, even if they do give Lois and Clark a supernatural divorce (hey, as long as he doesn't do a deal with Darkseid, right?).

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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 5:45:17 PM   
sanchia


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From: Norwich
It's not the first time they have rebooted and last time it worked quite well. That said I would hope that the abomination which the present Wonder Woman is would be wiped away like dog faeces from a shoe.

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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 1/6/2011 6:31:11 PM   
Invader_Ace


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I just came to see if this had broke on here.  Personally, I think it's a good idea in theory.  The whole reason I stay away from Marvel and DC is the baggage of years and years on convoluted backstories.  Maybe this will help with that.  I'll definitely pick them off the shelf and have a look, which is a 100% improvement.  I barely register those sections of my local Travelling Man these days.

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Post #: 12
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 10:47:52 AM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
I think, if Morrison's Bat-epic was finished, I'd be supportive of anything they did.  I love Damian Wayne and Stephanie Brown, but even I have to concede that the default status quo for Batman in recent years is Bruce=Bats, Tim=Robin, Dick=Nightwing, and Babs=Batgirl.  Personally, I'd rather tweak that so Babs was still Oracle and Steph was still Batgirl, but we shall see...

Anyway, right now I just want to see the September solicitations, final titles, and creative teams!

For my money, I'd like to see the following titles in the new Batman line-up:

Batman - written by Morrison, following his ongoing arc
Detective Comics - stories featuring solo Bruce in a "Dark Knight detective" sort of way
Nightwing - or whatever, a book following Dick, whatever he's calling himself now
Batgirl - preferably Steph's adventures, but with Babs in a prominent role every issue
Batman Incorporated - different stories featuring different members of the Incorporated team around the world
Robin - a Tim book, whatever he calls himself
Outsiders - featuring the team introduced in Inc 6
Catwoman - solo Selina adventures, occasionally featuring her Sirens co-stars


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 11:01:11 AM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
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Interesting thoughts but I read somewhere that David Finch is committed to Batman: Dark Knight for the long haul. That said they may well put him on something else if that's being renumbered / cancelled.

I really can't see them doing away with Damian though. He's probably the best introduction into the Bat-family in the last 20 years in my opinion. Also retconning Bab's shooting would be a huge mistake!

_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Post #: 14
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 2:45:31 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob

I really can't see them doing away with Damian though. He's probably the best introduction into the Bat-family in the last 20 years in my opinion. Also retconning Bab's shooting would be a huge mistake!


I agree wholeheartedly, but that's what Bleeding Cool is claiming: new Batgirl #1 and Nightwing #1, starring Babs and Dick respectively.  But I think you're right, not them

You're right about Dark Knight tho, Finch has said he's got lots more stories planned and has worked out how to solve the delays the title's had, so there's obviously more to come there.  I guess they've got 52 books to fill so there's always room...


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Post #: 15
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 4:00:19 PM   
Rob


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Bleeding cool seem to have got some pretty good leads on this. I quiet like the idea of some of the Wildstorm characters coming into the main DCU - not sure why as I've never really read them but this might persuade me to give some a go.

The more I think about this (and it's been a lot) the more I'm beginning to like it. Brett Booth on Teen Titans art duty is good enough for me as I'm really liking his current JLA run.

So far my pull list will be:

Batman
Detective
Batwoman
Justice League
Green Lantern
Teen Titans - as long as Booth is confirmed
Aquaman - just to see what Johns and Reis do with him

_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 5:37:31 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I'll update new additions to the list as they come out if people don't mind!  New additions are in bold and I haven't included Batwoman because it hasn't been properly confirmed yet.

Geoff Johns and Jim Lee on Justice League #1
Brian Azzarello and Cliff Chiang on Wonder Woman #1
Geoff Johns and Ivan Reis on Aquaman #1
Brian Buccellato and Francis Manapul on Flash #1
Ethan Van Sciver and Gail Simone writing The Fury Of Firestorm #1 with artist Yildiray Cinar.
Tony Daniel and Philip Tan on Hawkman #1.
JT Krul and Dan Jurgens on Green Arrow #1
Dan Jurgens and Aaron Lopresti on Justice League International #1.
Eric Wallace and Roger Robinson on Mister Terrific #1.
JT Krul and Freddie Williams II on Captain Atom #1.
DC Universe Presents
#1 (anthology) with Deadman story by Paul Jenkins and Bernard Chang.
Geoff Johns and Doug Mahnke on Green Lantern #1
Peter J. Tomasi, Fernando Pasarin and Scott Hanna on Green Lantern Corps #1
Tony Bedard, Tyler Kirkham and Batt on Green Lantern: The New Guardians #1
Peter Milligan, Ed Benes and Rob Hunter on Red Lanterns #1


< Message edited by furrybastard -- 3/6/2011 2:14:47 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 6:35:51 PM   
Invader_Ace


Posts: 1584
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Is there a date for these #1s?

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Post #: 18
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 6:46:14 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invader_Ace

Is there a date for these #1s?


They're all happening in September, I believe.

Along with Johns/Lee on JLA and JH Williams III on Batwoman, that's 12 out of 52 confirmed so far. I'd expect Grant Morrison on Batman and possibly Superman too if rumours are to be believed, but those 12 are the only titles confirmed so far.

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Post #: 19
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 6:49:41 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I'd also expect Snyder to remain on Detective and possibly get another title. And Paul Cornell on Action Comics and probably one other too.

Brian Clevinger (Atomic Robo) is expected to be doing somthing as well, at a guess I'd say Teen Titans or something along those lines. Maybe Doom Patrol, that'd be cool!

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Post #: 20
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 2/6/2011 11:43:17 PM   
ThunderKat


Posts: 41
Joined: 4/7/2009
From: North London
hope they don't take Scott Snyder away from Detective Comics.

What would be cool; characters with 1 title only, 6-12 issues to make a go of it; if not, replaced by new titles/characters. sorta like TV seasons.


< Message edited by ThunderKat -- 2/6/2011 11:46:03 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 3/6/2011 2:15:01 PM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5181
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
I'll update new additions to the list as they come out if people don't mind!  New additions are in bold and I haven't included Batwoman because it hasn't been properly confirmed yet.

Geoff Johns and Jim Lee on Justice League #1
Brian Azzarello and Cliff Chiang on Wonder Woman #1
Geoff Johns and Ivan Reis on Aquaman #1
Brian Buccellato and Francis Manapul on Flash #1
Ethan Van Sciver and Gail Simone writing The Fury Of Firestorm #1 with artist Yildiray Cinar.
Tony Daniel and Philip Tan on Hawkman #1.
JT Krul and Dan Jurgens on Green Arrow #1
Dan Jurgens and Aaron Lopresti on Justice League International #1.
Eric Wallace and Roger Robinson on Mister Terrific #1.
JT Krul and Freddie Williams II on Captain Atom #1.
DC Universe Presents
#1 (anthology) with Deadman story by Paul Jenkins and Bernard Chang.
Geoff Johns and Doug Mahnke on Green Lantern #1
Peter J. Tomasi, Fernando Pasarin and Scott Hanna on Green Lantern Corps #1
Tony Bedard, Tyler Kirkham and Batt on Green Lantern: The New Guardians #1
Peter Milligan, Ed Benes and Rob Hunter on Red Lanterns #1

(in reply to ThunderKat)
Post #: 22
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 3/6/2011 2:48:22 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
I've been wondering what Ed Benes has been up to. I'll give Red Lanterns a shot I guess as I like his art as well. Not sure if the concept of Red Lanterns is enough to support an ongoing book but happy to be proved wrong.

_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 3/6/2011 5:15:16 PM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
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From: Manchester
Interesting interview with Geoff Johns about Green Lantern, where he states very clearly that the new series follows on directly from his previous stories since "Rebirth", and in fact takes place a couple of months after the conclusion to "War of the Green Lanterns":

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g2WpTcj0-ArmzEJH-f6Z-_WL7Beg?docId=bdff3b7a22a64a7eb95ec09d2c62c86e


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 4/6/2011 10:14:11 AM   
Vadersville


Posts: 3080
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Bad move I think. The new Wonder Woman reboot has been met with much criricism and from what I've read of my girlfriend's copies is a bit shit really. I dread to think of what will happen to Batman now. I loved Morrison at first but Batman Inc.? I honestly don't see the point in this, does anyone need or want a new origin for Bats after Year One? Plus, whilst I love Jim Lee's artowkr I'm not keen on him redesigning the costumes for everyone. Look at the design he did for the Wonder Woman... leather jacket, neck choker?

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Post #: 25
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 4/6/2011 10:53:21 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18132
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I have to agree if Batman Inc is swept away it would not be a bad thing at all. Whilst I am no longer the fan of Alex Ross I used to be I tend to think he have been a good choice for costume design as he is quite good at it and not stuck in the 90's.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 4/6/2011 10:55:02 AM >


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 6/6/2011 9:30:05 AM   
Snake-Eyes


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From: ZONE 2
I've been reading about this 'reboot'. Interesting stuff. At best, I'm just a casual reader of DC (and Marvel) comics these days; I just pick up the occasional trade here and there. I enjoyed Geoff Johns' Green Lantern 'Rebirth' story and I'd like to check out 'Blackest Night' (is there a single trade that contains the whole story?) So, in terms of this 'Universe Reboot' does anyone know what the plan is with JONAH HEX, SGT. ROCK and LOBO? Their adventures are sorta 'outside' continuity. And what about BATMAN...?

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Post #: 27
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 6/6/2011 11:28:25 AM   
britesparc


Posts: 2053
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Manchester
I'm not gonna debate the qualities of Batman Inc as I feel it's utterly, utterly brilliant in every way 

But I'm increasingly thinking this isn't a reboot at all.  I think very little continuity will be changed.  Looking at the solicitations so far, and the brief interviews with creators, everything is carrying on from previous stories; if anything, it seems more like a "One Year Later" style break, with characters changing costumes and the like, but no wide-scale shifting of origin stories.  Firestorm is still the two guys who were Firestorm post Blackest Night; there's still Kyle Rayner, the Emotional Spectrum, and four human GLs; and one could argue that Batman's new costume is similar enough to his Inc costume as to be a refinement (it even appears to have a codpiece), and Nightwing now has a red bat on his chest, perhaps because he's still part of Inc.

Now, I'm still nervous, as like I said, I adore Batman Inc, so I'm concerned as to its future, but I have full faith in Morrison.

Regarding other "non-DCU" comics, I expect we'll see more of them, as well as characters like Swamp Thing and Constantine getting mainstream, non-Vertigo titles (I think Swamp Thing has already been announced, or leaked at least).

And now four Bat-titles have been announced: Batman, DC, Dark Knight, and B&R.  Bruce is officially the only Batman, but... Damian is still Robin!


< Message edited by britesparc -- 6/6/2011 3:50:33 PM >


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RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 6/6/2011 3:57:55 PM   
Olaf


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I haven't picked up a new DC book in ages (though I'm working through Morrison's Batman run in trade), but some of these look quite appealing. Morrison on Superman would be amazing obviously and while I don't know anything about the Red Lantern Corps, Peter Milligan wrote two of my favourite series ever (Shade The Changing Man and X-Force/X-Statix) and if he was to do something similar on this I'd pick it up in a heartbeat.

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Post #: 29
RE: DC Universe to reboot?!? - 6/6/2011 4:23:49 PM   
Rob


Posts: 2473
Joined: 30/9/2005
Well I hope that Batman Inc is in there somewhere as I really like it as a concept. That said it's probably the easiest to get rid of and it does make sense to have only one Batman running around.

I'm certainly on board for all four of those and it's good to see that the creative teams are pretty consistent with the current run.

Also I agree with you Britesparc in that I can't see this being a total reboot. I think that would actually make it more confusing in a way and alienate too many people.

< Message edited by Rob -- 6/6/2011 4:33:48 PM >


_____________________________

Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

(in reply to Olaf)
Post #: 30
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