Register  |   Log In  |  
Sign up to our weekly newsletter    
Follow us on   
Search   
Forum Home Register for Free! Log In Moderator Tickets FAQ Users Online

Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Film Forums] >> Soundtracks >> Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 27/5/2011 10:28:07 AM   
Empire Admin

 

Posts: 29501
Joined: 29/6/2005
Post your comments on this article
Post #: 1
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 1/6/2011 10:51:32 AM   
BelfastBoy

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 30/11/2005
Time for an anti-Hans Zimmer rant...

I watched Pirates 4 on Sunday, and thought that the film was pretty awful, an unfocused noisy mess. I was also disgusted with the music, because Hans Zimmer is such a lazy composer! The broad strokes of the score are largely culled from the previous films, and even there the music was hardly original. How many more times is Zimmer going to recycle the same obvious chord progressions? James Horner rightly gets hammered for self-referencing but, since Gladiator, Zimmer's done the same. The problem is that many of his Media Ventures / Remote Control clones are also using the same basic tunes! Seriously, listen to some Steve Jablonsky (Transformers 1+2) or Trevor Rabin (National Treasure), and compare them to something like Zimmer's Madagascar scores - the same dull themes permeate throughout, with little variation.

Zimmer, like Horner, frustrates me immensely. He's clearly incredibly gifted and talented, but maybe he just takes on too many projects, or maybe he doesn't care enough about all of them. When he really tries, his scores can be wonderful. I wish he'd use full orchestras instead of synthesisers more often, but he's capable of greatness. All too often though, he (or some of his 'overproduced' acolytes) dip into their basic library of past scores, make some changes on the computer, and then pass them off as original work. That's just not good enough for me. Huge chunks of Zimmer's work in the past decade has been lifted straight from the opening scene of Gladiator, and I for one can still hear the same music in all of the POTC scores. Despite the presence of Rodrigo y Gabriela on the new soundtrack, Zimmer's empty and all-too-familiar pomposity still dominates. He could do so much better, so why doesn't he? If he'd turn aside from Hollywood empire-building and got back to just being a more selective composer, maybe he'd come up with more imaginative and memorable work.

Obviously I disagree with the Empire review, by the way!

(in reply to Empire Admin)
Post #: 2
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 3:52:26 AM   
threshold


Posts: 319
Joined: 26/10/2010
From: Sydney, Austraiia
I completly disagree. how has Zimmer done the same thing over and over again?
Compare POTC with Inception, Sherlock Holmes, It's Complicated, and The Dark Knight (just to name a few)
They are all incredibly different, while stilll having the undertones of Zimmer-awesomeness.
Gladiator does not sound anything like the above movie's scores.
Why do you say gladiator sounds like most of his other themes?
Because they use the same instruments?

And no way does he use the same themes.

(in reply to BelfastBoy)
Post #: 3
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 7:50:35 AM   
BackpackPresley

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/6/2011
From: united states
thanks...for sharing...

(in reply to threshold)
Post #: 4
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 9:15:28 AM   
BelfastBoy

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 30/11/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: threshold

I completly disagree. how has Zimmer done the same thing over and over again?
Compare POTC with Inception, Sherlock Holmes, It's Complicated, and The Dark Knight (just to name a few)
They are all incredibly different, while stilll having the undertones of Zimmer-awesomeness.
Gladiator does not sound anything like the above movie's scores.
Why do you say gladiator sounds like most of his other themes?
Because they use the same instruments?

And no way does he use the same themes.


Of course Zimmer uses the same themes! Most composers do, usually with greater subtlety. From the Gladiator soundtrack in particular, if you listen to 'The Battle' and can't find any similarities to anything from POTC, then I'd be very surprised. Don't you think that POTC principal action theme sounds just a little bit familiar? It's also common knowledge that large amounts of the Gladiator score were written by Klaus Badelt and Lisa Gerrard, while Zimmer himself admitted to significant 'borrowings' from Wagner and Holst.

If you read what I posted, you'll note that I don't doubt Zimmer's abilities, and I also freely accept that he's done some great work during his career. I personally disliked the Sherlock Holmes score, but it was certainly original. Inception, Da Vinci Code are great, but the Batman ones were collaborations with James Newton Howard. Another recent and overlooked example of quality from him would be, surprisingly, Kung Fu Panda (melodic and instrumentally sympathetic to the geography of the subject matter). Obviously I don't dispute your right to an opinion, and if you like Zimmer's music, fair enough. For me though, his (and his many collaborators') music for the POTC films is unoriginal and relentlessly repetitive. Christian Clemmenson from Filmtracks does a far better job than me in demolishing them, so read on:

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pirates_caribbean.html

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pirates_caribbean2.html

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pirates_caribbean3.html

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pirates_caribbean4.html

If you want to listen to a great modern nautical / piratical score, then I'd dispense with the POTC dross and check out John Debney's soundtrack for 'Cutthroat Island'. The film is utter bilge but the score is magnificent and appropriate to the genre - especially the 2cd expanded Prometheus edition from 2005. Honestly, I'm not kidding when I say that this is one of the greatest film scores ever written. Debney, unlike Zimmer, understands the genre he's writing for, rather than just imposing a standard action style more appropriate to The Peacemaker or The Rock.

< Message edited by BelfastBoy -- 2/6/2011 9:27:17 AM >

(in reply to threshold)
Post #: 5
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 9:24:01 AM   
Gimli The Dwarf


Posts: 77562
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Central Park Zoo
I was reading those reviews the other day after buying the soundtrack. I'll admit to being clueless when it comes to what makes music good or bad, I just like what I like, but it sounded as if the'd reviewed something other to what I listened to.

I do genuinely like the music for all four films. That may be down to having one of the catchiest themes in film music for years, and I can see that Zimmer repeats himself. I know that listening to POTC you can hear Gladiator and in Gladiator you can hear Holst's Mars (My ear for music isn't great, I had to discover the resemblances via a youtube clip!) but they're aren't immediate concerns, I just like what I''m hearing.

_____________________________

So, sir, we let him have it right up! And I have to report, sir, he did not like it, sir.

Fellow scientists, poindexters, geeks.

Yeah, Mr. White! Yeah, science!

Much more better!

(in reply to BelfastBoy)
Post #: 6
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 9:30:15 AM   
BelfastBoy

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 30/11/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gimli The Dwarf

I was reading those reviews the other day after buying the soundtrack. I'll admit to being clueless when it comes to what makes music good or bad, I just like what I like, but it sounded as if the'd reviewed something other to what I listened to.

I do genuinely like the music for all four films. That may be down to having one of the catchiest themes in film music for years, and I can see that Zimmer repeats himself. I know that listening to POTC you can hear Gladiator and in Gladiator you can hear Holst's Mars (My ear for music isn't great, I had to discover the resemblances via a youtube clip!) but they're aren't immediate concerns, I just like what I''m hearing.


That's fair enough, and I'd never try to state otherwise. I'm a huge James Horner fan but would still freely accept that he's still recycling stuff from Wrath of Kahn even today! Personally, my big problem with Zimmer is that I just don't like his synth heavy bombastic style, yet would never dispute the magic of something like Chevaliers de Sangreal from Da Vinci Code.

By the way, did anybody know that, many years ago, Zimmer co-wrote the musical theme for rubbish quiz show Going For Gold?!

< Message edited by BelfastBoy -- 2/6/2011 10:16:40 AM >

(in reply to Gimli The Dwarf)
Post #: 7
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 5:32:17 PM   
Dr Lenera

 

Posts: 3945
Joined: 19/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: BelfastBoy

Time for an anti-Hans Zimmer rant...

I watched Pirates 4 on Sunday, and thought that the film was pretty awful, an unfocused noisy mess. I was also disgusted with the music, because Hans Zimmer is such a lazy composer! The broad strokes of the score are largely culled from the previous films, and even there the music was hardly original. How many more times is Zimmer going to recycle the same obvious chord progressions? James Horner rightly gets hammered for self-referencing but, since Gladiator, Zimmer's done the same. The problem is that many of his Media Ventures / Remote Control clones are also using the same basic tunes! Seriously, listen to some Steve Jablonsky (Transformers 1+2) or Trevor Rabin (National Treasure), and compare them to something like Zimmer's Madagascar scores - the same dull themes permeate throughout, with little variation.

Zimmer, like Horner, frustrates me immensely. He's clearly incredibly gifted and talented, but maybe he just takes on too many projects, or maybe he doesn't care enough about all of them. When he really tries, his scores can be wonderful. I wish he'd use full orchestras instead of synthesisers more often, but he's capable of greatness. All too often though, he (or some of his 'overproduced' acolytes) dip into their basic library of past scores, make some changes on the computer, and then pass them off as original work. That's just not good enough for me. Huge chunks of Zimmer's work in the past decade has been lifted straight from the opening scene of Gladiator, and I for one can still hear the same music in all of the POTC scores. Despite the presence of Rodrigo y Gabriela on the new soundtrack, Zimmer's empty and all-too-familiar pomposity still dominates. He could do so much better, so why doesn't he? If he'd turn aside from Hollywood empire-building and got back to just being a more selective composer, maybe he'd come up with more imaginative and memorable work.

Obviously I disagree with the Empire review, by the way!


Ha ha, nice!  I agree with some of what you say.  Zimmer CAN be a really good composer, [I'm especially fond of his animated film scores]but too often he's incredibly lazy. As are many of his Media Ventures acolytes.  I watched Solomion Kane the other day and the main theme is exactly the same as one of the Pirates themes, just differently arranged.

I do think Zimmer's POTC scores were getting better-the At World's End score really has some fine stuff in it and what sounds like a fuller orchestra.  On Stranger Tides though is really quite poor, just Zimmer going through the motions.  Only the guitar stuff and the rather effective mermaid music saves it from being totally forgettable.

Of course, it doesn't help with Zimmer that the soundtrack versions of his scores are often a mess, with scores often assembled in a strange order, tracks altered, bits of tracks put onto others, etc.


_____________________________

check out more of my reviews on http://horrorcultfilms.co.uk/

(in reply to BelfastBoy)
Post #: 8
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 9:14:52 PM   
BelfastBoy

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 30/11/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Lenera

I watched Solomion Kane the other day and the main theme is exactly the same as one of the Pirates themes, just differently arranged.


Good spot - and who was responsible for the Solomon Kane score? Zimmer collaborator / pupil / clone Klaus Badelt. (Lest we forget, the man officially credited with the Curse Of The Black Pearl score - even though it's common knowledge that Zimmer was really pulling the strings but was contractually unable to lend his name to the film.)

And another thing...I wonder what Alan Silvestri's music for Black Pearl sounded like? I'd be amazed if it was any worse than what the film ended up with. At least Silvestri maybe used an actual orchestra rather than Pro-Tools, a hard drive full of Zimmer's greatest hits and a load of bass-heavy synthesisers.

< Message edited by BelfastBoy -- 2/6/2011 9:19:56 PM >

(in reply to Dr Lenera)
Post #: 9
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 2/6/2011 10:49:42 PM   
Struie


Posts: 16
Joined: 11/1/2006
I hate to call it an "anti-Zimmer rant", but I do have to agree with some of the things from Belfastboy.

It's hard to believe this is the same composer that came up with such great themes as "Davy Jones", "The Kraken", "Drink up me hearties", the haunting melodies of both the Da Vinci Code ("Chevalier de Sangreal", "Kyrie for the Magdelaine" and Angels and Demons ("160 BPM"), and the huge themes of Gladiator.
I get the use of the latin guitar, what with Penelope Cruz and all, but to hand over half the album to it? And what's with the "remixes"? Don't even get me started there.
I had high hopes for this given what has gone before, but with most of the tracks recycled from frevious films and the rest handed over to guitarists & DJs, I do wonder what was the point?

(in reply to BelfastBoy)
Post #: 10
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 3/6/2011 6:39:07 AM   
Gimli The Dwarf


Posts: 77562
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Central Park Zoo
Remixes aside, my main problem with the album is nothing to do with the music, but the title name for track 11. Could they not think of anything better than End Credits? Jack's final line from the film would have suited nicely.



_____________________________

So, sir, we let him have it right up! And I have to report, sir, he did not like it, sir.

Fellow scientists, poindexters, geeks.

Yeah, Mr. White! Yeah, science!

Much more better!

(in reply to Struie)
Post #: 11
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 3/6/2011 8:21:46 AM   
threshold


Posts: 319
Joined: 26/10/2010
From: Sydney, Austraiia
Hmmm, I guess I did overeact a bit, but I did go into defensive mode as I just love the zimmerman.

but you must admit, you were generalising a bit.
As I said above, sherlock holmes, Inception, it's complicated and potc, sound complitly different.
So he has the capability to sound different.

And to me, as long as he does at least one really good thing per year, i'm fine with him sounding the same for the rest of the films, after all, it's only film music, and it's just trying to help convey the emotion which is on the film.

(in reply to Gimli The Dwarf)
Post #: 12
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 3/6/2011 2:08:19 PM   
BelfastBoy

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 30/11/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: threshold

Hmmm, I guess I did overeact a bit, but I did go into defensive mode as I just love the zimmerman.

but you must admit, you were generalising a bit.
As I said above, sherlock holmes, Inception, it's complicated and potc, sound complitly different.
So he has the capability to sound different.

And to me, as long as he does at least one really good thing per year, i'm fine with him sounding the same for the rest of the films, after all, it's only film music, and it's just trying to help convey the emotion which is on the film.


No harm in overreacting if it's something you feel strongly about - that's what a good discussion forum is for! I'd never dispute that Zimmer has come up with some genuinely great work, but it's my personal opinion that his POTC scores are certainly not his best work.

I think it depends on how passionate someone is about film scores. (These are general comments now, not aimed at threshold or anyone else in particular.) If you're a casual listener, in the sense of watching a film and liking the soundtrack, that's fine. You can buy the occasional CD and be satisfied. But if you really listen widely, then you'll quickly see that all composers - even the likes of Zimmer, James Horner and John Williams - inevitably end up reusing the same themes, especially as they get older. (For instance, Williams' action music for Indy 4 sounds to me like a poor imitation of his own far superior Phantom Menace efforts.)

I would suggest that saying "it's only film music" is being a little bit dismissive of the genre though. The problem with Zimmer is also perhaps that he may well do one good thing every year, but he'll also end up 'overproducing' the work of his soundalike Remote Control collaborators / employers. He has a formula, and a very successful one, but for me personally it's not always the sound of greatness.

(in reply to threshold)
Post #: 13
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 4/6/2011 5:28:29 AM   
johndroberts

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/6/2011
I quite like Hans Zimmer's music and this album struck a few chords with me. If you love his other stuff you will love this too. Where I think this fell short were the remixes.

_____________________________

Recent Movies seen:
Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Actually LEGO Pirates of the Caribbean Queen Anne's Revenge is based on the new Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Inception



< Message edited by johndroberts -- 15/6/2011 2:11:35 AM >

(in reply to BelfastBoy)
Post #: 14
RE: Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides - 8/6/2011 3:49:38 AM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair
Speaking as a musician I have to say BelfastBoy is quite correct, Zimmer does repeat his own themes and scores often. Obviously not in all of his work but much of it, particularly the blockbusters. There are exceptions but POTC borrows a lot from Gladiator etc as pointed out above. His chord progressions are so predictable sometimes I can often picture the next note before it happens. Unfortunately in seems to be a sign of the times where composers are increasingly becoming repetitive and unimaginative.

_____________________________

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

(in reply to johndroberts)
Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Film Forums] >> Soundtracks >> Pirates Of The Caribbean: On Stranger Tides Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


 
Movie News  |  Empire Blog  |  Movie Reviews  |  Future Films  |  Features  |  Video Interviews  |  Image Gallery  |  Competitions  |  Forum  |  Magazine  |  Resources
 
Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.078